Optimism Vs. Christianity

[zzz 0]

way to take it out of context

Why do you worship a baby killer?

[Sluggo 0]

How is pointing to passages where God kills babies out of context? You may draw different conclusions from it, but it's literally in context.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Why do you worship a baby killer?

hmm...and He did this when? Your problem is you still have yet to even consider an afterlife...If all of the babies are alive in heaven then how were they killed...your problem is you put to much emphasis on the human life...this is merely just a blip on the screen of time and the real life doesnt begin till after deathSo no he didnt kill the babies..he just released them from this world of sin...good try though

[DerekTah 0]

Why do you worship a baby killer?

Why is that a problem to one who feels that if he/she killed babies that the person could then choose to go to heaven.Your fine if a human kills a baby, why does it bug you if god chooses to or not?

[zzz 0]

Why is that a problem to one who feels that if he/she killed babies that the person could then choose to go to heaven.Your fine if a human kills a baby, why does it bug you if god chooses to or not?

Just wondering why you choose to believe in a murderous God.

[SilentSnow 1]

When did God kill a baby? He actually saved them from an eternity in Hell...crap if i had the choice right now to be killed and go to heaven now or to spend another 60 years on earth...id choose the former

So the most righteous thing we can do is slaughter all the children in the world.After all, theyll all get a free ticket to heaven. Sure, we might go to hell, but who knows? Maybe God will forgive us for doing so much good.And for the record, no one is saying we dont have to take responsibility for our actions. What we are saying is that it is unconscionable to attach an infinite punishment to a very finite action. But if you cant punish people in a wildly disproportionate manner to their sins, then religion becomes irrelevant. I mean does it really matter in the slightest if we spend the first thousand years of eternity paying for our sins on this earth, but can then enter heaven for being a righteous person?

[Mattnxtc 0]

So the most righteous thing we can do is slaughter all the children in the world.After all, theyll all get a free ticket to heaven. Sure, we might go to hell, but who knows? Maybe God will forgive us for doing so much good.And for the record, no one is saying we dont have to take responsibility for our actions. What we are saying is that it is unconscionable to attach an infinite punishment to a very finite action. But if you cant punish people in a wildly disproportionate manner to their sins, then religion becomes irrelevant. I mean does it really matter in the slightest if we spend the first thousand years of eternity paying for our sins on this earth, but can then enter heaven for being a righteous person?

then u havent been reading zzz's posts...he very much wants to die and have a choice even though he doesnt feel he needs to follow God's willAnd the catch to your little scenerio is in the 10 commandments? U know the most important laws God passed down...."Though shall not kill" it kinda rules out ur scenerioand who says u get to get out of hell?

[Loismustdie 0]

then u havent been reading zzz's posts...he very much wants to die and have a choice even though he doesnt feel he needs to follow God's willAnd the catch to your little scenerio is in the 10 commandments? U know the most important laws God passed down...."Though shall not kill" it kinda rules out ur scenerioand who says u get to get out of hell?

I love how they always jump to the conclusion that it's time to go on a baby killing spree yet YOU AND I are the extremist. Sheesh.

[Mattnxtc 0]

I love how they always jump to the conclusion that it's time to go on a baby killing spree yet YOU AND I are the extremist. Sheesh.

haha the problem is when zzz or sluggo has to use any sort of coherent argument...thats when they run in to trouble

[DerekTah 0]

So the most righteous thing we can do is slaughter all the children in the world.After all, theyll all get a free ticket to heaven. Sure, we might go to hell, but who knows? Maybe God will forgive us for doing so much good.And for the record, no one is saying we dont have to take responsibility for our actions. What we are saying is that it is unconscionable to attach an infinite punishment to a very finite action. But if you cant punish people in a wildly disproportionate manner to their sins, then religion becomes irrelevant. I mean does it really matter in the slightest if we spend the first thousand years of eternity paying for our sins on this earth, but can then enter heaven for being a righteous person?

Actually if that was the argument, then I might actually agree to it. This may be what you are saying, zzz is not saying this. zzz, argument is that its much more optimistic to believe in freedom of choice after-life then having someone else decide your two options (I have my doubt that its just two options, but ok). What become weird is zzz then says that one should go to heaven or hell based on the choices they make (in a pervious post he said that after life, if you still want to hurt people you will go to hell, I don't understand that if you have full choice why you can't go to heaven and still want to hurt people.)It also seems weird that zzz says that god should not judge us when he himself has judged god. He wants it both ways!Oh Mattnxtc, there is one biblical character who was in both heaven and hell. One may suggest is that while he was in hell he may of laid a path to get to heaven (I would not want to risk my afterlife on that, but I am pointing out the possibility). Could it not be possible that if after getting to hell if you decide to follow this man you can get to heaven.

[Sluggo 0]

The point is not that killing is good. Our point is that under the guidelines you have laid out, killing children would be a tremendously noble thing to do. A child murderer would be sacrificing his own spot in heaven to ensure that innocent children get in. If I believed in your version of Christianity, I would be grateful if someone killed me before I had a chance to sin.

It also seems weird that zzz says that god should not judge us when he himself has judged god. He wants it both ways!

Um, where did zzz decide the god's eternal fate??

[Flack_attack 0]

Anyone who says the God of the OT is "just" or "not cruel" is fooling themselves. Also, by Matt's logic, God did the babies a favor by placing them straight to heaven. So, we should go kill all babies who will reject Jesus later in life to save them from hell.

[DerekTah 0]

Um, where did zzz decide the god's eternal fate??

To judge someone you must decide their eternal fate? Nice try at taking my words out of context.

[Loismustdie 0]

Anyone who says the God of the OT is "just" or "not cruel" is fooling themselves. Also, by Matt's logic, God did the babies a favor by placing them straight to heaven. So, we should go kill all babies who will reject Jesus later in life to save them from hell.

Um, no. Way to make Islamist extremist look rational.

[zzz 0]

Actually if that was the argument, then I might actually agree to it. This may be what you are saying, zzz is not saying this. zzz, argument is that its much more optimistic to believe in freedom of choice after-life then having someone else decide your two options (I have my doubt that its just two options, but ok). What become weird is zzz then says that one should go to heaven or hell based on the choices they make (in a pervious post he said that after life, if you still want to hurt people you will go to hell, I don't understand that if you have full choice why you can't go to heaven and still want to hurt people.)It also seems weird that zzz says that god should not judge us when he himself has judged god. He wants it both ways!Oh Mattnxtc, there is one biblical character who was in both heaven and hell. One may suggest is that while he was in hell he may of laid a path to get to heaven (I would not want to risk my afterlife on that, but I am pointing out the possibility). Could it not be possible that if after getting to hell if you decide to follow this man you can get to heaven.

You are convoluting my simple arguement. That is, after death it is an optimistic view to believe in having choices. Believing in no choice whatesoever is a pessimistic opinion on the unknown fact of what happens after death... Unless you view NO freedom after death is better than having ANY freedom. So we have many choices to choose from on earth, but once we die our choices cease to exist for all eternity. Sorry Matt, I am tossing out logic to "throw people off".

then u havent been reading zzz's posts...he very much wants to die and have a choice even though he doesnt feel he needs to follow God's willAnd the catch to your little scenerio is in the 10 commandments? U know the most important laws God passed down...."Though shall not kill"it kinda rules out ur scenerioand who says u get to get out of hell?

Even the God that made this law couldn't follow it. Oh yeah, we are supposed to not kill because we are better than God....Makes perfect sense....

[DerekTah 0]

You are convoluting my simple arguement. That is, after death it is an optimistic view to believe in having choices. Believing in no choice whatesoever is a pessimistic opinion on the unknown fact of what happens after death... Unless you view NO freedom after death is better than having ANY freedom. So we have many choices to choose from on earth, but once we die our choices cease to exist for all eternity. sense....

But, why if you believe our choices should not be judged in life, should our choices be judged in the afterlife? Thats the bit that I'm not understanding. You made it clear that we will have the choice to go to heaven or hell, but you built those choices on a moral fondation (in a pervious post you mentioned if you want to hurt people you would go to hell)I also got to say from what you mentioned before I think you have a pestimistic view of Christian afterlife. I do not just believe in "heaven = pleasure, hell = pain". Ever ask the question "so once you get to heaven what will you do"? We don't know, I doubt its just sitting your *** on a cloud all day. I know in general a few things I would like to do, 1) find out which version of the bible is the definitive version, and which parts are symbolic and which are literal. 2) self-discovery: no matter which destination, I am going to have to look at the decisions of my life, and even if I do get to heaven, I doubt the experience will be pleasant, for I have to look at all my failures (and I know I have many). 3) Serving God: finding how how I can serve him.Heaven and Hell may just be two places where we spend enternity making unlimited choices. It is not the ending, just a new beginning.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Oh Mattnxtc, there is one biblical character who was in both heaven and hell. One may suggest is that while he was in hell he may of laid a path to get to heaven (I would not want to risk my afterlife on that, but I am pointing out the possibility). Could it not be possible that if after getting to hell if you decide to follow this man you can get to heaven.

I know of the verses ur talking about in 1Peter i believe it is...this is actually a mormon principle if i am not mistaken. The problem with this is very simple. If you ended up in hell wouldnt you always go to heaven given the chance? This would make hell into a kind of purgatory and i personally dont think that is Gods plan...if it is great if not o well...but i do understand the argument...just dont think its correct biblically

You are convoluting my simple arguement. That is, after death it is an optimistic view to believe in having choices. Believing in no choice whatesoever is a pessimistic opinion on the unknown fact of what happens after death... Unless you view NO freedom after death is better than having ANY freedom. So we have many choices to choose from on earth, but once we die our choices cease to exist for all eternity. Sorry Matt, I am tossing out logic to "throw people off".Even the God that made this law couldn't follow it. Oh yeah, we are supposed to not kill because we are better than God....Makes perfect sense....

the problem is ur "simple argument" doesnt hold up to any test of any sortIf there is no God:if there is no God you have no choices. You are dead and thats it. You dont get heaven or hell...you just die and thats it...Thats a pretty pessimistic view. The key thing is there is no choiceIf there is a God: Then you feel you should be able to do whatever u want...not believe in a God but when you die He should give you a choice? Yeah thats how it works in this world too isnt it. You can do whatever you want and then just decide your future. The problem is that you feel you should be able to do whatever u want and get away with it. That you should not be punished for your actions. If you do not see how selfish this view is then well there is no hope for you. God made it very simple. Believe in Him and follow his rules to the best of your ability and you will be rewarded with heaven. If you dont want to do this then you "choose" to go to Hell. So theres your choice. You can choose heaven or hell...the only problem is you choose now and not thenAnd no you arent even using logic. your attempting to basically overthrow logic by making arguments that cant stand on anythingAS for your continued bad argument. We are God's creation. He continually gives us chances. The people in Noah's time had warning. They knew exactly what was going to happen and what did they do? They laughed in God's face. So He cleared the sin off the earth. No babies died and they are all up in heaven right now. Did those who went against God die? NO they get to spend their life in hell regretting what they did. Your problem which is again a contradiction to your other arguments is that on one hand you want to view this death as the end of it (ie God "killed" people) while on the other hand saying you want choices in the afterlife. So to admit that there is an afterlife is to admit that this life is only temporary and the real life is to come. God gave these people what they wanted and deserved. They went against God and worshipped other idols and so for this they were cast into the hell they desired.

[DerekTah 0]

I know of the verses ur talking about in 1Peter i believe it is...this is actually a mormon principle if i am not mistaken. The problem with this is very simple. If you ended up in hell wouldnt you always go to heaven given the chance? This would make hell into a kind of purgatory and i personally dont think that is Gods plan...if it is great if not o well...but i do understand the argument...just dont think its correct biblically

The question is assuming there is an actual path from hell to heaven, what is the path. I doubt its just "hey look, Jesus left a ladder for us." First off, would you have to be in the correct mindset. I mean lets say the very first thing you must do is accept God's judgement on you that you deserved to be in hell, that may it itself stop most people from ever getting to heaven right there.As it is I believe in it as a possibility, not a "there must be a path"

[Mattnxtc 0]

The question is assuming there is an actual path from hell to heaven, what is the path. I doubt its just "hey look, Jesus left a ladder for us." First off, would you have to be in the correct mindset. I mean lets say the very first thing you must do is accept God's judgement on you that you deserved to be in hell, that may it itself stop most people from ever getting to heaven right there.As it is I believe in it as a possibility, not a "there must be a path"

I dunno...i guess its how you view hell...If it is the fire and brimstone that some make it out to be then i think most would readily do all that is possible to get out of that situation...but if it is just "eternal seperation from God" then I could see where your position could be that some might want to stay in....Honestly i dont know and biblically there just isnt any real evidence as to what the possibilities are...I personally tend to lead towards the fact that people have their shot and if they miss out they miss out...but i guess when we die we will find out the truth

[DerekTah 0]

I dunno...i guess its how you view hell...If it is the fire and brimstone that some make it out to be then i think most would readily do all that is possible to get out of that situation...but if it is just "eternal seperation from God" then I could see where your position could be that some might want to stay in....Honestly i dont know and biblically there just isnt any real evidence as to what the possibilities are...I personally tend to lead towards the fact that people have their shot and if they miss out they miss out...but i guess when we die we will find out the truth

Well, even if its fire and brimstone, if the situation was "do you accept that God made the correct judgement", you will have those who plead ignorance on the issue. When I say accept, it doesn' t mean "well, I'm down here so I must have done something wrong". I mean an actual acknowledgement of the reason(s) one is unworthy of heaven. I can also think of others things that people may not do even in fire and brimstone (forgive others for wrongs they caused, ask for forgivness, somehow redeem actions in hell, avoid continued sinning) I doubt it would be a simple path (sure isn't a simple path to heaven as is).

[zzz 0]

I know of the verses ur talking about in 1Peter i believe it is...this is actually a mormon principle if i am not mistaken. The problem with this is very simple. If you ended up in hell wouldnt you always go to heaven given the chance? This would make hell into a kind of purgatory and i personally dont think that is Gods plan...if it is great if not o well...but i do understand the argument...just dont think its correct biblicallythe problem is ur "simple argument" doesnt hold up to any test of any sortIf there is no God:if there is no God you have no choices. You are dead and thats it. You dont get heaven or hell...you just die and thats it...Thats a pretty pessimistic view. The key thing is there is no choiceIf there is a God: Then you feel you should be able to do whatever u want...not believe in a God but when you die He should give you a choice? Yeah thats how it works in this world too isnt it. You can do whatever you want and then just decide your future. The problem is that you feel you should be able to do whatever u want and get away with it. That you should not be punished for your actions. If you do not see how selfish this view is then well there is no hope for you. God made it very simple. Believe in Him and follow his rules to the best of your ability and you will be rewarded with heaven. If you dont want to do this then you "choose" to go to Hell. So theres your choice. You can choose heaven or hell...the only problem is you choose now and not thenAnd no you arent even using logic. your attempting to basically overthrow logic by making arguments that cant stand on anythingAS for your continued bad argument. We are God's creation. He continually gives us chances. The people in Noah's time had warning. They knew exactly what was going to happen and what did they do? They laughed in God's face. So He cleared the sin off the earth. No babies died and they are all up in heaven right now. Did those who went against God die? NO they get to spend their life in hell regretting what they did. Your problem which is again a contradiction to your other arguments is that on one hand you want to view this death as the end of it (ie God "killed" people) while on the other hand saying you want choices in the afterlife. So to admit that there is an afterlife is to admit that this life is only temporary and the real life is to come. God gave these people what they wanted and deserved. They went against God and worshipped other idols and so for this they were cast into the hell they desired.

It's called forgiveness.Believing in a God that punishes you for 70 trillion+ yrs for going against his will for 70 yrs on earth defies logic and most people do not consider that very loving and just.

[Loismustdie 0]

It's called forgiveness.Believing in a God that punishes you for 70 trillion+ yrs for going against his will for 70 yrs on earth defies logic and most people do not consider that very loving and just.

Most people aren't going to make it to heaven.

[Sluggo 0]

Most people aren't going to make it to heaven.

According to you.My religious friend believes Hell is like a mental hospital where you make up for your sins and are eventually released into heaven.

[SilentSnow 1]

Most people aren't going to make it to heaven.

Looks like the true nastiness and irrationality of conservativechristianity is being revealed in this thread.

[Mattnxtc 0]

According to you.My religious friend believes Hell is like a mental hospital where you make up for your sins and are eventually released into heaven.

actually its according to the bible not himand im not certain that people in hell will want to admit they screwed up