LHE vs NLHE

[Guest]

NLHE is great for tourny's. It keeps your nerves on edge, and makes for a more exciting tournament. But I think limit is where the long term money is.

[cdddc75 0]

While both sides make compelling arguments, I think anyone that fails to see that Pot Limit Indian Poker is the grand daddy of all poker games is a moron.(sw)

[avsfan 0]

LHE!

[tswing 0]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

[KDawgCometh 2]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

[Swift_Psycho 1]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

What he said.

[poguemahone68 0]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

I do agree that bluffing is essential to playing winning stud, I do not agree that it may be a higher factor than in NLHE. You have to at least have something in your board to pull of a bluff, whereas in NLHE you don;t have to have anything at all in your hand.The concept is the same, you are trying to represent something that you don't have. With up cards of 268j rainbow in stud, you're gonna have a hard time moving anyone off anything. I know, you shouldn't even still be in the hand, but my point is that I believe bluffing is more key to NLHE than stud.

[JFarrell20 1]

limit

[KDawgCometh 2]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

I do agree that bluffing is essential to playing winning stud, I do not agree that it may be a higher factor than in NLHE. You have to at least have something in your board to pull of a bluff, whereas in NLHE you don;t have to have anything at all in your hand.The concept is the same, you are trying to represent something that you don't have. With up cards of 268j rainbow in stud, you're gonna have a hard time moving anyone off anything. I know, you shouldn't even still be in the hand, but my point is that I believe bluffing is more key to NLHE than stud.

yes, but say you have three hearts on your board its much eaiser to get someone to think that they're up against a flush then if there is three hearts on a Holdem board. You can also use dead cards to your advantage in Bluffing in stud as by betting with what appears to maybe be just queens but there are dead queens you are possibly implying that you have a much stronger hand like two pair

[jonnyz 0]

Lets just all agree that Pot Limit is the most skilled structure and end this arguement

[poguemahone68 0]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

I do agree that bluffing is essential to playing winning stud, I do not agree that it may be a higher factor than in NLHE. You have to at least have something in your board to pull of a bluff, whereas in NLHE you don;t have to have anything at all in your hand.The concept is the same, you are trying to represent something that you don't have. With up cards of 268j rainbow in stud, you're gonna have a hard time moving anyone off anything. I know, you shouldn't even still be in the hand, but my point is that I believe bluffing is more key to NLHE than stud.

yes, but say you have three hearts on your board its much eaiser to get someone to think that they're up against a flush then if there is three hearts on a Holdem board. You can also use dead cards to your advantage in Bluffing in stud as by betting with what appears to maybe be just queens but there are dead queens you are possibly implying that you have a much stronger hand like two pair

Just the fact that there are dead cards to keep track of adds something to the game.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

since stud got thrown in mix, when it comes down to it stud is not as hard of a game mathematically because of the amount of cards that youare exposed too, everyone at the table has cards showing, so you can use that information to cut the percentages down for odds and outs but in no limit there is the huge bluff factor which in itself at high stakes is amazing plus all the options that everyone has talked about

umm, the Bluff factor in stud is extremely high, in fact maybe higher than i Nolimit as you can use your board as a weapon representing something that you probably don't even have much eaiser because the board is solely yours

I do agree that bluffing is essential to playing winning stud, I do not agree that it may be a higher factor than in NLHE. You have to at least have something in your board to pull of a bluff, whereas in NLHE you don;t have to have anything at all in your hand.The concept is the same, you are trying to represent something that you don't have. With up cards of 268j rainbow in stud, you're gonna have a hard time moving anyone off anything. I know, you shouldn't even still be in the hand, but my point is that I believe bluffing is more key to NLHE than stud.

yes, but say you have three hearts on your board its much eaiser to get someone to think that they're up against a flush then if there is three hearts on a Holdem board. You can also use dead cards to your advantage in Bluffing in stud as by betting with what appears to maybe be just queens but there are dead queens you are possibly implying that you have a much stronger hand like two pair

Just the fact that there are dead cards to keep track of adds something to the game.

Perhaps, but just like hold'em, stud gets more complicated the better the competition gets. You say that it's tough to bluff if you have a very uncoordinated board. Yet, top players will often recognize that a guy is betting at them with a board that would be very poor to bluff with, so they must have a real hand. If you move to the next level, even better players may pick up on that. They will bluff knowing that their competition will give them credit for a hand in that scenario. Frankly, I just think NL hold'em is infinitely easier to play. It's tough to compare NL hold'em to stud because stud is a limit game. If people played NL stud (which I hear has actually been created in some places), then there would be very little discussion. NL stud would be way harder than NL hold'em.

[Smasharoo 0]

I've read this sentence a few times now and it's still unclear to me what you're getting at. Thus summarizes the nature of our interaction on this forum.

[JTPHS 0]

this is gonna be the best response to this arguement. Every poker game is hard, every verson, every limit. If I was to play heads up limit hold'em against smash, I think that i'd have to think very hard and it would be very complex. when i play no-limit hold'em again my roommate, i have to think very hard and it's very complex, when i play PL omaha against him, I have to think very hard. What ever it is.. if it's played properly it's a great game. Smash lik's Limit hold 'em because to beat the game at any level you have to think hard, you have to adust to different types of tables. at NL you have to do that same thing, but lets be honest... it's incredibly easy to beat a bad NL hold'em player.every type of Hold 'em is hard... every type of poker is hard... don't discredity any type... or you'll probably become a bad poker player...interested to see smashes response to this

[Mashchit 0]

Lets just all agree that Pot Limit is the most skilled structure and end this arguement

We should refer to the greatest poker player ever, not to smash's micro-limit arguments.  Doyle Brunson said it, NLHE is the cadillac of poker games.

yes, and Daniel and Lederer would probably tell you they like Limit Holdem more

You beat me to it Jonny. My vote's with pot limit and I've certainly read Daniel (and other pros) express the opinion that pot limit hold 'em is a more skilful game than no limit.

[Smasharoo 0]

Pot Limit is definately the most complex, because like limit, it's structured by street, and like NL it has varried betting amounts.Being able to be all in on any street is what makes NL so much *less* complex than either PL or Limit.

[Scott31 0]

Being able to be all in on any street is what makes NL so much *less* complex than either PL or Limit.

And also the most stressful. There's something unnerving about a complete idiot being able to take all of your chips on a 15-1 shot in NL. It's suckouts like that that keep the bad players coming back for more. The suckout is the great equalizer in NL and levels the playing field a little too much for my liking, which is why I stick to limit. With that said, however, I do think there's more skill in NL simply because of the large range of variables to consider. A small chink in your NL game can lead to you losing your whole roll on one hand. A small chink in your Limit game is not that bad. It's more like bleeding to death in a desert rather than being shot in the head by Pacino in a small Italian restaurant. :-) As far as multi-tabling, I'm much more certain that my decisions in Limit are correct than I am in NL. Noticing the size of the raises is very important in NL and I just don't notice the betting patterns as well when 4 tabling NL. Do they bet 3x, 4x, the pot always, or try a beartrap? This is info that is very important (for me at least). I really feel like I'm missing out on some money when I fail to notice this. Yes, you can beat low limit NL by just waiting for sets and flopped straights, which requires little attention, but I feel like I'm missing out on a lot when I play that tight. It is a guaranteed way to make some money though.

[Scott31 0]

I thought about it after my lengthy reply and I probably should have put this instead in regards to one game being more skilled than the other......Who cares? :wall: Yep, that better encapsulates my feelings on it. I make money at both, so I guess 'who cares' works for me.

[yeffy 0]

The stud arguement is simple. The best players almost always walk away with the money in a stud game. While over the long term the best hold'em players will win and the bad ones wil lose, the short term swings are much bigger and bad players can have big cashes. The luck factor is simply higher in hold'em than in stud. This is also why it's a much more popular game. It's more exciting since "any two cards can win". The TV thing enters into the popularity as well. I love stud but after watching the WSOP events I realized...stud makes for bad TV. The bottom line is bad stud players don't last at all....they go broke or find their way to the hold'em games. The same guys I used to kill in the 15-30-45 stud game are now playing 1-2 and 2-5 no-limit. They can sit and complain for 4 hours about their cards pick up one big hand, get some 12 year old looking kid in oakleys to hand over their whole stack and then they cash out for the night.That being said the stud games here in the east are getting harder and harder as people either go broke or move to hold'em to take advantage of the new players and the abundant action. I occasionally work my way through the room at the Taj or Borgata switching games and limits to keep myself sharp as the hours go on. I'll start at stud until my mind mushes a little, then I'll play O8 or LH, then I'll play NLH since it takes a lot less focus at the lower limits (ie: 1/2 or 2/5) and I like to run out the end of my session there into the weee hours when the action gets good and the chips are flying. Then when I'm totally burnt, my buddy and I grab 3 or 4 racks of white chips a coctail or two and reek havoc on an unsuspecting 2-4 limit game. Great way to have a party at the end of the night, play some nutbar and blow off steam.My point (there's one in there somewhere) the games have different levels of complexity...at certain limits. That is definitely the key. The 15-30-45 or 20-40-60 stud game is not a soft game. You need to be on your toes and focused, all the time. A step down from that are the 40-80 and 20-40 LH games I play in. Always enough fish to go around, but also enough sharks that you need to exploit those tiny little edges to keep up. Then the wonderful new world of "baby no-limit" 1-2 or 2-5....wow these are the softest games around. And lastly there is the low limit hold'em. Sorry but low limit holdem is not a complex game. You simply need good starting hand selection and the ability to read board texture and follow players betting patterns. It's a mindless grind if you want to play "correctly". A monkey can be taught to beat a low limit hold'em game....I know of at least one.......

[Swift_Psycho 1]

With that said, however, I do think there's more skill in NL simply because of the large range of variables to consider. A small chink in your NL game can lead to you losing your whole roll on one hand. A small chink in your Limit game is not that bad.

I have to strongly disagree here. There are so many different scenarios in NL that a leak in one part can't hurt you too much. In limit, the scenarios repeat consistently, so one chink will hurt you far more over the long run if you don't fix it in the long run. You might be missing picking up an extra bet every time you hit scenario A. In NL, that's not a problem. Oftentimes, you can just bet a little more the next street and you don't really lose much of anything. But like I've already said, I think it's just a matter of what we are better at by default. Some find NL harder, some find limit harder. They are two different games.

[Smasharoo 0]

You simply need good starting hand selection and the ability to read board texture and follow players betting patterns. It's a mindless grind if you want to play "correctly". A monkey can be taught to beat a low limit hold'em gameNo kidding, it's harder to beat higher limit games, who'd have thought?Stud is much less complex than Holdem. The fact that a skiled player wins more often doesn't indicate the game is more complex. A skilled Tic Tac Toe player will win more often than a novice as well, doesn't make it a particularly complex game.

[yeffy 0]

You simply need good starting hand selection and the ability to read board texture and follow players betting patterns. It's a mindless grind if you want to play "correctly". A monkey can be taught to beat a low limit hold'em gameNo kidding, it's harder to beat higher limit games, who'd have thought?Stud is much less complex than Holdem. The fact that a skiled player wins more often doesn't indicate the game is more complex. A skilled Tic Tac Toe player will win more often than a novice as well, doesn't make it a particularly complex game.

That's just my opinion. My results in middle limit stud and hold'em run about the same. I just find stud to have more complexities. 6th and 7th st. are amazingly difficult to play properly. It's like making 3 holdem turn decisions in one game. The cost of betting or not betting 7th st. will swing your results massively, especially in a 3 bet progression game (15-30-45). Stud games also tend to be much tighter so you don't find the generous pot odds that some hold'em games can offer to make your decisions easier and level out swings. It is also more complex to figure out your drawing odds. In a hold'em game you always know what the nuts is at any given time. This is just not the case in stud. You need to put your opponent(s) on multiple hands since rolled up trips look just like a straight draw on a stud board. You also need to play against more than one of these boards. This makes decision making much more complex in my opinion, since the possibility of misreading your opponents' hands is far more likely. Add to that the need for card memory and an extra betting round and I think we have a more complex game than hold'em.

[Smasharoo 0]

This makes decision making much more complex in my opinion, since the possibility of misreading your opponents' hands is far more likely. Add to that the need for card memory and an extra betting round and I think we have a more complex game than hold'em.No, just one with less infomration.5 card draw where you were dealt one card a time and bet after each card would have less information as well, but not be terribly complex to play.Oppinions vary, but the very fact that you are often making essentially random plays on 7th in Stud actually makes is signifigantly less complex. Card memory is a trival thing for nearly anyone to master.

[yeffy 0]

5 card draw where you were dealt one card a time and bet after each card would have less information as well, but not be terribly complex to play.

How would a game where you're dealt one card at a time be "5-card draw"?? Do you mean 5 card stud? Which most old school pros say was one of the hardest games to play well.

No, just one with less infomration.

Stud has far more information than hold'em. But in certain ways simultaneously has less complete information than hold'em. Can you explain how this makes it less complex?

you are often making essentially random plays on 7th in Stud

There is a stud theory that involves randomizing 7th st. decisions, but that isn't how most good stud players make their river bets. It is a useful tool for someone who never knows what to do on the end, since you really need to know if someone was drawing or not in order to make a solid 7th st. choice, but I don't think it's the best way to play.

[gar 0]

I believe Daniel wrote an article about this subject. If I remember correctly, Daniel argued that yes, No Limit is potentially more complex but it has bred a group of players who he called "all in specialist". By moving all in preflop they have taken alot of the complexity out of the game. Daniel stated that Pot Limit was the most complex game.