LHE vs NLHE

[poguemahone68 0]

OK, so there has been debate in other threads pertaining to the complexities of Limit Hold'em vs No Limit Hold'em. I'd rather just have a thread devoted to this discussion as opposed to having it sprinkled throughout many threads. I am aware that there is a "Texas Hold'em" section, but the average reply rate to threads there is like 3, so I'm putting it here in general to get as much opinion as possible.I believe that NLHE is a more complex game than LHE. I would like to get some feedback as to what you all think about this. I'm particularly interested in people's reasons for believing that LHE is a more complex game than NLHE. I think it would be great to get as many reasons out there for the way we think about this.To me the reasons for NLHE being more complex is self evident, but the reverse is not so evident.The first obvious difference is the options you are given in each game. You can play NLHE exactly like LHE, as in all players can bet and raise the minimum should they choose to do so. The reverse is not true, as one has only one option when betting and raising in LHE. So there is the first obvious reason for the argument that NLHE is more complex than LHE.So, on the surface it looks like there really is no argument here, yet people still claim LHE to be a more complex game. I'm thinking there may be some subtlties involved that people, including myself, are not aware of and I'd like to hear about it.Whatcha think?

[darksung 0]

Here's an interesting article by Thomas Keller on the subjecthttp://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...4308&m_id=65547And limit holdem is indeed a uninteresting game

[justblaze 0]

well, the expression goes that "no limit is an art, limit is a science." While on the face of it, NLHE appears to be far more complicated than limit holdem due to the vast increase in possible decisions, the opposite is true for this exact reason. A skilled NLHE player will crush an unskilled one fairly quickly. The differences in strategy and ability become quickly obvious. In limit, on the other hand, what separates the world class players from the average players is tiny minute differences. saving a bet here, getting an extra one there, the ability to do this kind of thing consistently requires way more thinking than the wait and bait game that is no limit.

[tswing 0]

To tell you the truth, I have never heard somebody claim that LHE was more complex or in depth than NLH. When playing no limit it is very hard to play on line like 5 tables at once because there is so much more going on. Like reading people, how much to bet and when, too or not too slowplay, how to optimize the amount of money recieved when you have the nuts. Just so many more possibilities it is impossible to think limit even comes close to the complexities in no limit.Limit is easy to play 5 tables at once, because once you figure out the mathematics of certain hands, almost every play is very easy, fold call raise. There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

[justblaze 0]

There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

you dont understand limit. Many decisions are excruciatingly tough. Just because its only for 1 bet doesnt make it easy. those bets add up.

[darksung 0]

Smash thinks limit is more complex than no limit...

[Suited_Up 2]

At the highest limits, they are both very complex. But NL is more complex in general I think. More possibilites and tough decisions. Sure some choices in limit aren't easy... but if you make the wrong choice it isn't the end of the world now and then. NL might make all the difference though.

[All_In 0]

personally, i will never play NLHE online again. i feel i need more 'info' from the players in NL because of the risk involved.i think limit is way better online (after burning a few bankrolls) because of the mathematical thinking involved. u don't really need to read players as much.

[poguemahone68 0]

There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

you dont understand limit. Many decisions are excruciatingly tough. Just because its only for 1 bet doesnt make it easy. those bets add up.

See, I think someone putting you all-in on the river when you have the second or third best hand possible hand is far more excrutiating than calling in that instance for one more bet. Especially if you've spent the last 3 hours building a nice stack and are now faced to lose it all. Please explain to me what is so "excruciating" about calling one more bet? It may be tough, but "excruciating"? Nah...

[KDawgCometh 2]

Mason Malmuth makes some very good arguments on why Limit is more complex than NoLimit. Like JustBlaze said in Nolimit an expert's advantage is much greater than a Limit expert's. In limit you have many less options of protecting your hand then you do in Nolimit, this makes limit very hard. To darksung, saying that limit is an uninteresting game is kinda weak and it shows that you haven't played that much limit, or you've been killed in it. Limit takes a lot of discipline to play well, and its always fun to play limit with nolimit guys as the nolimit cats play way too many hands, and then proceed to whine how you can only raise it one bet, while they proceed to lose their money[/i]

[justblaze 0]

There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

you dont understand limit. Many decisions are excruciatingly tough. Just because its only for 1 bet doesnt make it easy. those bets add up.

See, I think someone putting you all-in on the river when you have the second or third best hand possible hand is far more excrutiating than calling in that instance for one more bet. Especially if you've spent the last 3 hours building a nice stack and are now faced to lose it all. Please explain to me what is so "excruciating" about calling one more bet? It may be tough, but "excruciating"? Nah...

its excruciating because you know that its only 1 more bet, but this situation will come up 100 more times, so if you are making the wrong play, you are losing 100 bets. personally, i find it much easier to fold the 3rd nut on the end for my whole stack then one bet. the decisions in NL are more cut and dry.

[tswing 0]

exactly, plus in limit, u think someone who plays limit professionally is ever faced with a tough decision?? If you think yes than you are not realizing how they play. Theres not too many tricky situations. You think when a pro is playing 5 tables, he is analyzing what to do?? No, he knows what to do For example, in late position with AQ and the betting is capped, theres no gray area there, you just fold. You have KK and an ace flops and it is two bets to you, not much to think about, throw away the hand

[poguemahone68 0]

Mason Malmuth makes some very good arguments on why Limit is more complex than NoLimit. Like JustBlaze said in Nolimit an expert's advantage is much greater than a Limit expert's. In limit you have many less options of protecting your hand then you do in Nolimit, this makes limit very hard. To darksung, saying that limit is an uninteresting game is kinda weak and it shows that you haven't played that much limit, or you've been killed in it. Limit takes a lot of discipline to play well, and its always fun to play limit with nolimit guys as the nolimit cats play way too many hands, and then proceed to bi[/b]tch how you can only raise it one bet, while they proceed to lose their money

Smash made a comment in the thread about the WPT Borgada open that he thought those hands played themselves. I immediately thought, wtf? I thought about the hands that he posts and I think those hands play themselves. A good limit player would have played them virtually exactly the same way as Smash did. If you were to sit 6 different pros down at that Final WPT table and dealt out the same cards, they would have played them much differently and they also would have had the option to play them much more differently. I think that is why people think LHE is boring or less complex, cause good players generally play all hands in their respective positions the same way. There are even charts that show you exactly what to play when and where in LHE.While I do agree it is fun to play LHE with players who primarily play NLHE, I truly enjoy playing NLHE tournies as there is so much more fo rme to pay attention to. I really do like the sit n gos though where some guy joined a LHE tourney by mistake and then complains the whole time as he's bleeding his chips to everyone.

[KDawgCometh 2]

exactly, plus in limit, u think someone who plays limit professionally is ever faced with a tough decision?? If you think yes than you are not realizing how they play. Theres not too many tricky situations. You think when a pro is playing 5 tables, he is analyzing what to do?? No, he knows what to do For example, in late position with AQ and the betting is capped, theres no gray area there, you just fold. You have KK and an ace flops and it is two bets to you, not much to think about, throw away the hand

you are just looking at it from an online point of view only. Its a little ridiculous to say you won't come across an important decision in limit. There can be many tricky situations in limit and its not just because your facing your entire stackloss. Playing second pair good kicker is very hard to do. You really need to pay attention to betting tendencies and what not

[KDawgCometh 2]

actually I think stud can be even more complex than holdem

[jayistheman 0]

actually I think stud can be even more complex than holdem

i'm pretty sure it is

[poguemahone68 0]

There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

you dont understand limit. Many decisions are excruciatingly tough. Just because its only for 1 bet doesnt make it easy. those bets add up.

See, I think someone putting you all-in on the river when you have the second or third best hand possible hand is far more excrutiating than calling in that instance for one more bet. Especially if you've spent the last 3 hours building a nice stack and are now faced to lose it all. Please explain to me what is so "excruciating" about calling one more bet? It may be tough, but "excruciating"? Nah...

its excruciating because you know that its only 1 more bet, but this situation will come up 100 more times, so if you are making the wrong play, you are losing 100 bets. personally, i find it much easier to fold the 3rd nut on the end for my whole stack then one bet. the decisions in NL are more cut and dry.

Yeah, you fold and he shows you the bluff and it works it's way into your head. If you think it just works it's way into the heads of new players, then you are mistaken, everyone, even the top players who have been doing it for years get affected. The emotional swings are far greater in NLHE than in LHE, which is just one more element that makes NLHE a more complex game than LHE.In NLHE you have the science and the art, whereas in LHE, you primarily just have the science.

[ForumMod 0]

Stud is a lot harder to learn than hold'em. I dont see how anyone could argue the other way.Regarding NLHE vs LHE. I used to be a believer that LHE was the easier of the two games, little did I Know. Limit Hold'Em is a much more intricate game.. JustBlaze was right when he quoted "No-Limit is an art-form, Limit is a science" As fun to watch and play NLHE is, Limit is that indepth... Pulling something from SS2, Jennifer harman takes about 3-4 pages to discuss playing your mid-pair from the blings... In No-Limit you've got a lot of moves here, but you're going to show your hand or bet them off the pot.In Limit - With the same hand, You can lead bet, check/raise or smooth call. And no matter WHAT you do, if you've logged hands with that person you're not going to give up what you've got in your hand. I feel Limit is a much more mathmatical game in some aspects, but a more sicentific game? Absolutely... I'm currently refining my Limit game, I built my bankroll on Limit, but have since stopped playing it.

[justblaze 0]

There should never be times in limit where you are faced with a tough decision online, b&m is a little different, but still should not be faced with too many decisions

you dont understand limit. Many decisions are excruciatingly tough. Just because its only for 1 bet doesnt make it easy. those bets add up.

See, I think someone putting you all-in on the river when you have the second or third best hand possible hand is far more excrutiating than calling in that instance for one more bet. Especially if you've spent the last 3 hours building a nice stack and are now faced to lose it all. Please explain to me what is so "excruciating" about calling one more bet? It may be tough, but "excruciating"? Nah...

its excruciating because you know that its only 1 more bet, but this situation will come up 100 more times, so if you are making the wrong play, you are losing 100 bets. personally, i find it much easier to fold the 3rd nut on the end for my whole stack then one bet. the decisions in NL are more cut and dry.

Yeah, you fold and he shows you the bluff and it works it's way into your head. If you think it just works it's way into the heads of new players, then you are mistaken, everyone, even the top players who have been doing it for years get affected. The emotional swings are far greater in NLHE than in LHE, which is just one more element that makes NLHE a more complex game than LHE.In NLHE you have the science and the art, whereas in LHE, you primarily just have the science.

theres no science in NL because you'll rarely see the exact same situation more than once.

[poguemahone68 0]

actually I think stud can be even more complex than holdem

Excellent point KDawg, but I wasn't even trying to go there yet. I believe there is a lot of psycology in stud too. Looks can be so deceiving in that game. Which leads into razz, talk about a mindfuk!

[poguemahone68 0]

theres no science in NL because you'll rarely see the exact same situation more than once.I was talking about math. You stil need to be able to understand the various applicable odds.

[justblaze 0]

theres no science in NL because you'll rarely see the exact same situation more than once.I was talking about math. You stil need to be able to understand the various applicable odds.

yea, but theres so many ways to use/manipulate them. in limit, theres usually one play with the highest EV and the trick is analyzing all the minute little factors to continually find that play. In NL many plays will work, in limit theres often one 'correct' one. hence, the art and the science.

[KDawgCometh 2]

actually I think stud can be even more complex than holdem

Excellent point KDawg, but I wasn't even trying to go there yet. I believe there is a lot of psycology in stud too. Looks can be so deceiving in that game. Which leads into razz, talk about a mindfuk!

really I just wanted to stir the pot even more. Stud is my main and best game. I feel its both art and science. I hate the Johnny Moss quote "stud is to holdem what checkers is to chess" like no tommorrow. Stud takes a great amont of skill to play at an expert level and is a wonderful game to learn

[poguemahone68 0]

theres no science in NL because you'll rarely see the exact same situation more than once.I was talking about math. You stil need to be able to understand the various applicable odds.

yea, but theres so many ways to use/manipulate them. in limit, theres usually one play with the highest EV and the trick is analyzing all the minute little factors to continually find that play. In NL many plays will work, in limit theres often one 'correct' one. hence, the art and the science.

What you're saying supports the argument that hands play themselves more in LHE and not in NLHE. In Smash's experiment, he says he "always" raises with AQ, no matter what position he's in. If that's not a hand playing itself, then I just don't know what is. To me, that's less complex.

[justblaze 0]

actually I think stud can be even more complex than holdem

Excellent point KDawg, but I wasn't even trying to go there yet. I believe there is a lot of psycology in stud too. Looks can be so deceiving in that game. Which leads into razz, talk about a mindfuk!

really I just wanted to stir the pot even more. Stud is my main and best game. I feel its both art and science. I hate the Johnny Moss quote "stud is to holdem what checkers is to chess" like no tommorrow. Stud takes a great amont of skill to play at an expert level and is a wonderful game to learn

personally i think theres far more skill in stud and a lot less luck.