I'ma High Roller Part 1 (15/30)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bellagio 15/30 LHE (9-handed)Cobalt is UTG w/ J T . My image is fairly tight. Game is generally loose-passive. BB, a young asian girl, is a somewhat straight-forward TAG, and while she's not dumb, she's capable of overplaying hands a bit. She's been fortunate to hit some big hands and have them hold. CO, a scruffy middle-aged quiet guy, is somewhat loose-passive.Pre-flop:Cobalt calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB checksFlop (5 SB): 9 8 3 (5 players)SB checks, BB bets, Cobalt calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Cobalt calls, CO callsTurn (7 BB): Q (3 players)BB bets, Cobalt raises, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Cobalt 4-bets, BB callsRiver (15 BB): 3 (2 players)BB bets, Cobalt callsFinal Pot: 17 BBWhen considering calling the 3-bet on the flop, my feeling was that CO is almost never going to cap in this spot. Addiitionally, I'm pretty sure that if I hit, the BB is going to pay me off.Anyone play it differently?

[DonkSlayer 1]

Fold Preflop.As played, nh.

[GoingBusto 0]

Fold Preflop.

Definitely do not fold this preflop in a loose-passive, live game. I would think five players seeing the flop would be enough evidence to counter this advice.I think you played it exactly right.GB

[screech 0]

Played perfectly IMO. I hope you won lots of $$$ in Vegas.

[Pancake407 0]

Anybody want to raise the flop?

[screech 0]

Anybody want to raise the flop?

No. We have 0 fold equity vs the flop bettor, and raising decreases our pot equity since it likely t ofold out our other opponents.

[mrdannyg 274]

I don't love the river call, since I think you're often good here if she's capable of overplaying hands. Betting a somewhat scary card like that is a typical play of someone overplaying hands. something like 89, Q9, or a weird one like AQ, TT or JJ if the game is passive enough she wouldn't raise there might play it the same.you've probably seen enough from her though to know the likelihood she'd donk-bet a card like that with or without a made hand. the limp then turn cap screams 33, 88, 99 or 89.depending on where i'm playing, i might throw in a cap on the flop. if nothing else, it'll get a check to you on the flop, which means you can check and often see the turn for one bet. if you hit one of your overcards too, it might save you half a bet down the road.that's a pretty weird play though, and if your opponents are paying any attention, they'll know you don't play a set like that, and they'll be able to put you on TJ almost exactly.i'm almost always playing it the same.

[Zach6668 513]

I play it exactly the same.Preflop is definitely ok.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Consensus: DonkSlayer is a tightass when playing Limit HE.

[mrdannyg 274]

Consensus: DonkSlayer is a tightass when playing Limit HE.

most of us only limp there in loose/passive games. if i'm not playing live, i rarely limp it.

[roadhawg 0]

i dont like the preflop limp from UTG because if it is raised behind you (which happens a lot) and sometimes even 3-bet behind then you are in a bad situation. if someone does raise it then you will be in some trouble because you will have to call one more bet out of position. this is a big problem because lets say you dont get one of the dream flops but instead you get a flop of J 3 6, sure it might seem like a good flop for you but most likely you will be in a lot of trouble which will end up being very costly. another thing is that when you are out of position you might not be able to make as many bets as you should. now that you did play it, i would say that on the flop you played it fine the only problem was that it looked like you had a draw or a monster, what i mean is that you just called the bet and when it gets 2-bet and 3-bet you still just call, and the only real draw out there was open ended.the turn play i didnt like for many reasons. first i would have just called there hoping that the person in the CO will raise like he did on the flop, in which case you can re-raise getting him and the BB trapped for more bets. but by just calling you are hoping he at least calls hoping his hand is good and then you can get more bets in on the river (i imagine he probably had something like A 9 or K9 something in that range and when he saw it bet and raise to him he knew he was no good). because of the flop play it seemed like you either had open ended or a set, the turn raise confirms that you either did flop a monster or you made your open ended, in which case would make it a pretty easy lay down for a pair or 2 pair. now although you did get 4 bets in on the turn from the BB in the long run i think it would be better for the just call and raise the river play.on the river you ran into some bad luck because the person in the BB could have easily had 83 or 93 and by the way she played it it seems like she did have one of those holdings. you said that she is capable of over playing some hands in which case she did because she did 3 bet you on the turn with just middle and bottom pair! like other people said she could've had 89 which would also seem reasonable and it jsut doesnt seem likely that she has something like Q 9 because she probably wouldn't 3-bet the flop with only 1 pair even though she is known to overplay her hands. on the river this is a clear just call situation because she most likely had 83 or 93 and 89 is the only had that she could logically have to where you would get paid off if you did raise. another reason i wouldn't raise is because of the fear you could get re raised and if you do get re raised you know you are beat but still have to call and if she was somehow bluffing the whole way she would just throw her hand away on the river if you raise, so really its like you are risking 2 bets to maybe make 1. and i know people are going to say what if she had 89 then she would call but really she might even throw that away (although from the way you describe her she would probably call) because it would seem real obvious that you have 2 pair beat.overall the way you played the hand was alright but i think the root of all the problems was the preflop call but even so you still played it fine.i am curious, what happened anyway? did you win? did you find out what she had?

[dimseven 0]

No. We have 0 fold equity vs the flop bettor, and raising decreases our pot equity since it likely t ofold out our other opponents.

The only argument for raising would be to clean up the J and T outs.BTW You're not screecho on Pacific are You?

[screech 0]

The only argument for raising would be to clean up the J and T outs.BTW You're not screecho on Pacific are You?

Yeah, but we get more value from our hand by just calling IMO.And no, I'm not screecho on Pacific, but I do plan on setting up an account there ASAP. Do they have rakeback?

[Zach6668 513]

i dont like the preflop limp from UTG because if it is raised behind you (which happens a lot) and sometimes even 3-bet behind then you are in a bad situation. if someone does raise it then you will be in some trouble because you will have to call one more bet out of position. this is a big problem because lets say you dont get one of the dream flops but instead you get a flop of J 3 6, sure it might seem like a good flop for you but most likely you will be in a lot of trouble which will end up being very costly. another thing is that when you are out of position you might not be able to make as many bets as you should. now that you did play it, i would say that on the flop you played it fine the only problem was that it looked like you had a draw or a monster, what i mean is that you just called the bet and when it gets 2-bet and 3-bet you still just call, and the only real draw out there was open ended.the turn play i didnt like for many reasons. first i would have just called there hoping that the person in the CO will raise like he did on the flop, in which case you can re-raise getting him and the BB trapped for more bets. but by just calling you are hoping he at least calls hoping his hand is good and then you can get more bets in on the river (i imagine he probably had something like A 9 or K9 something in that range and when he saw it bet and raise to him he knew he was no good). because of the flop play it seemed like you either had open ended or a set, the turn raise confirms that you either did flop a monster or you made your open ended, in which case would make it a pretty easy lay down for a pair or 2 pair. now although you did get 4 bets in on the turn from the BB in the long run i think it would be better for the just call and raise the river play.on the river you ran into some bad luck because the person in the BB could have easily had 83 or 93 and by the way she played it it seems like she did have one of those holdings. you said that she is capable of over playing some hands in which case she did because she did 3 bet you on the turn with just middle and bottom pair! like other people said she could've had 89 which would also seem reasonable and it jsut doesnt seem likely that she has something like Q 9 because she probably wouldn't 3-bet the flop with only 1 pair even though she is known to overplay her hands. on the river this is a clear just call situation because she most likely had 83 or 93 and 89 is the only had that she could logically have to where you would get paid off if you did raise. another reason i wouldn't raise is because of the fear you could get re raised and if you do get re raised you know you are beat but still have to call and if she was somehow bluffing the whole way she would just throw her hand away on the river if you raise, so really its like you are risking 2 bets to maybe make 1. and i know people are going to say what if she had 89 then she would call but really she might even throw that away (although from the way you describe her she would probably call) because it would seem real obvious that you have 2 pair beat.overall the way you played the hand was alright but i think the root of all the problems was the preflop call but even so you still played it fine.i am curious, what happened anyway? did you win? did you find out what she had?

I disagree with most of this analysis. I will try to come back and explain why when I'm off work.

[screech 0]

dont like the preflop limp from UTG because if it is raised behind you (which happens a lot) and sometimes even 3-bet behind then you are in a bad situation.

This is the worst possible scenario, and in a loose-passive game, it is pretty unlikely for to get raised, and it almost never gets 3-bet. Also, even if it does get raised, you'll still have plenty of donkeys calling so you'll still have a pot equity edge. Not to mention that we have a huge edge postflop, and thus should try to play as many hands as possible (within reason).Stop being so nitty and lag it up!

the only problem was that it looked like you had a draw or a monster, what i mean is that you just called the bet and when it gets 2-bet and 3-bet you still just call, and the only real draw out there was open ended.

Whta's the problem?

the turn play i didnt like for many reasons. first i would have just called there hoping that the person in the CO will raise like he did on the flop, in which case you can re-raise getting him and the BB trapped for more bets.

That's the best possible scenario and fairly unlikley given the action. BB has announced he has a strong hand, which makes it a bit more unlikely that CO has one too. Also, the fact that BB has announced his strength means CO will need something stronger than normal to stick in a raise here. Most likely scenario is that we call and CO calls, and that just sucks.

but by just calling you are hoping he at least calls hoping his hand is good and then you can get more bets in on the river (i imagine he probably had something like A 9 or K9 something in that range and when he saw it bet and raise to him he knew he was no good).

Why do you want to play so passively when we hit a strong hand? I really don't think this is a good idea. CO may call your raise anyway, and raising also lets you open the betting back up, in which case BB may 3-bet his obviously strong hand.

because of the flop play it seemed like you either had open ended or a set, the turn raise confirms that you either did flop a monster or you made your open ended, in which case would make it a pretty easy lay down for a pair or 2 pair.

Ok, for starters, we are playing agianst mostly loose-passive donkeys here, not phil ivey. Most of these guys don't give 2 thoughts to what hero has, and even if they do, none of them would have the discplinite to lay down 2 pair - not only because they have the pot odds to call and fill up(they don't know what pot odds are), but because they have 2 pair and they are seeing a showdown dammit. I agree with your river analysis, and obviously disagree with your assertions that htis hand was in any way played wrong.

[Zach6668 513]

I disagree with most of this analysis. I will try to come back and explain why when I'm off work.

Meh, screech beat me to it.

[roadhawg 0]

i see what you are saying and i forgot that these guys probably dont think there hand through very much (for some reason i was thinking of this guy playing in a 100-200 or something). the reason i think it is bad to show that you had open ended on the flop is because you wont get paid off when you do hit (which will happen very often in the high stakes games)i am not saying to play it passively i was just trying to say to get an overcall and get more money in on the river from 2 people hoping that they are good even though it seems slim. another reason you want to overcall is you want him to hit something on the river, like if he had A 9, you want him to hit an ace, etc.

[CobaltBlue 662]

DS, I'm certainly not going to play this in EP with most games, but these pots were frequently limped multiway and rarely 3-bet pre-flop.I realized that I messed up the action slightly. The turn wasn't capped since Bellagio allows 5-bets per round.

[GoingBusto 0]

The turn wasn't capped since Bellagio allows 5-bets per round.

This greatly reinforces your river call decision, IMO. I was already on board with it, but this should remove all doubt.GB

[Knight_Owl 0]

I've would've raised Flop with the straight draw.

And would've raised river to pick up additonal bets. Just my 2 cents.

[dimseven 0]

Yeah, but we get more value from our hand by just calling IMO.And no, I'm not screecho on Pacific, but I do plan on setting up an account there ASAP. Do they have rakeback?

Pacific had started rakeback for awhile, but then canceled it. Check raketherake to see if its still the same, I think it is.

[myenemy 0]

The only argument for raising would be to clean up the J and T outs.

I seriously consider raising the flop for this reason. I think that after all though there is more implied odds, if you catch, by just calling. At this point all you have is a BB lead bet. After the raise and reraise youre getting 6 to 1 to catch, I like the call here. (What if you dont catch the turn and the action goes bet, call, raise? Fold? Could've been reraised by the BB.) I like the river call.

[CobaltBlue 662]

In this case, villain has QQ. She said she neglected to look at her cards before checking pre-flop.Baby Cobalt weeps silently.