Recent Circuit Show With Boyd

[bascomeb 0]

find that number for yourself. (it will be worth it, i swear). look through HH's of sngs that you play and see how people got their money in. would you have taken that edge? even with the fold equity, even without? how might folding a coinflip have helped this person or that, could they have got their money in any better?there are no real answers only your idea of them. (so no real right or wrong)at a table full of donkey's there is no way i would call off on a coinflip. at a table full of 4K/8K players i'll take every conflip i can get.

stop mentioning sng situations. This isn't a sng situation we are talking about. We are talking about tournaments where the field is huge. In tournaments this big your equity lowers thus having a 60/40 edge is marvelous and should be gladly taken

[crimethink_ 0]

find that number for yourself. (it will be worth it, i swear). look through HH's of sngs that you play and see how people got their money in. would you have taken that edge? even with the fold equity, even without? how might folding a coinflip have helped this person or that, could they have got their money in any better?there are no real answers only your idea of them. (so no real right or wrong)at a table full of donkey's there is no way i would call off on a coinflip. at a table full of 4K/8K players i'll take every conflip i can get.

I already know what the number is...I'll take any edge I can find. I was just wondering, if a 60-40 edge isn't good enough for you at a table of random players, what is?

[navybuttons 15]

how is this a lack of tournament theory. YOu want to make money no? How do you make money in the long run? I believe its by putting your money in when you have the best hand no?And we can't play like its just one tournament of our lives. Are you saying that if we get sucked out on the river when we were a 95% favored, it was the incorrect decision? Results oriented thinking moroncrime although i do like where your mind is at, just because a pro said it doesn't make it a valid arguement. Others are using the arguement that most pros will fold here . I wouldn't try to use a pros perspective because they aren't always right and I let the math speak for itself

i tried to be nice and then you called me a moron. just because i do not think like you does not mean that my intelligence is beneath yours. and vice versa. i was being nice and enlightening you on what i believe to be the truth. however, our thinking just appears to be too far diverged (and coupled with the name calling) has exhausted me.i'm done with you, good bye.

[bascomeb 0]

I see you can say I have a lack of theory but i can't call you a moron.You basically called me an idiot too

[navybuttons 15]

I already know what the number is...I'll take any edge I can find. I was just wondering, if a 60-40 edge isn't good enough for you at a table of random players, what is?

100-0 sounds pretty good.THERE IS NO ANSWER! but fine, because you guys seem to be having trouble relating to what i am saying i'll say 80-20. even though 80-20 is wrong you'll sleep better knowing tonight that i gave you a concrete answer when i did not believe there was one.

[crimethink_ 0]

100-0 sounds pretty good.THERE IS NO ANSWER! but fine, because you guys seem to be having trouble relating to what i am saying i'll say 80-20. even though 80-20 is wrong you'll sleep better knowing tonight that i gave you a concrete answer when i did not believe there was one.

Well, logically, there must be an answer...for you personally, on the first hand of the main event of the WSOP, at a table with no one you know, folded to the SB who pushes all in, what kind of edge would you want in order to call there, and why?

[navybuttons 15]

I see you can say I have a lack of theory but i can't call you a moron.You basically called me an idiot too

i'm sorry if you felt i was attacking you. it was not my intention to do so.

[bascomeb 0]

100-0 sounds pretty good.THERE IS NO ANSWER! but fine, because you guys seem to be having trouble relating to what i am saying i'll say 80-20. even though 80-20 is wrong you'll sleep better knowing tonight that i gave you a concrete answer when i did not believe there was one.

you'll never consistenly get your money in 80-20.Are you saying that you'll be able to fold KK vs AA late in tourney?

[AcesUp46 0]

Maybe some porn will help to calm us down.You can say thanks later.

[trystero 0]

I dont think i'd ever turn down putting in my $ as a 2:1 favorite.

I wouldn't either. bascomeb's math basically refutes a conventional wisdom that many people seem violently unwilling to let go. From what I've seen he's been trying to present an argument only to be attacked on all fronts. Like many things mathematical / scientific, it seems false until you investigate the numbers lurking behind tournament poker. Sad truth is that your chances of winning are very, very low; and exploiting slight edges, especially at 2:1, helps significantly.It reminds me of something Phil Hellmuth did on High Stakes. He got his money in against Greenstein as a 91% favorite and agreed to 'insurance,' i.e. splitting the pot 80/20. While his move seems to be correct because no one wants a chance to lose $150,000, it's clearly the incorrect decision because he's abandoning over $10k in EV. Acceptable for me, maybe, if I somehow got ahold of $75k to gamble; totally unacceptable for a properly bankrolled professional.

[navybuttons 15]

you'll never consistenly get your money in 80-20.Are you saying that you'll be able to fold KK vs AA late in tourney?

we're working backwards.first we were on theory hands in beginning of tourney's now i don't know where we are.i wasn't saying i'm folding unless i know im 80-20 anywhere in the tourney. i'm saying that when i can be relatively sure i can outplay my table i am definately not going to risk my tournament life on the first hand as only a 3:2 favorite when blinds are 25/50 and i have 10000 in chips. obviously as the field, blind, stack sizes change so does the way to play a hand.also, if you can not see how sng strategy relates to tourney strategy, i'll chalk it up to those divergent thought processes i was mentioning earlier.

I wouldn't either. bascomeb's math basically refutes a conventional wisdom that many people seem violently unwilling to let go. From what I've seen he's been trying to present an argument only to be attacked on all fronts. Like many things mathematical / scientific, it seems false until you investigate the numbers lurking behind tournament poker. Sad truth is that your chances of winning are very, very low; and exploiting slight edges, especially at 2:1, helps significantly.It reminds me of something Phil Hellmuth did on High Stakes. He got his money in against Greenstein as a 91% favorite and agreed to 'insurance,' i.e. splitting the pot 80/20. While his move seems to be correct because no one wants a chance to lose $150,000, it's clearly the incorrect decision because he's abandoning over $10k in EV. Acceptable for me, maybe, if I somehow got ahold of $75k to gamble; totally unacceptable for a properly bankrolled professional.

i disagree. i believe bascomeb is using conventional wisdom (if we are ahead then call) and math (which i don't really see), when those who refute him are using what they may regard as probably a more advanced tournament theory. (who's violent? and who's attacking him? we are discussing a point at hand)again, do you not agree that winning w/o showdown is the best way to accumulate chips? we are not 2:1, we are 3:2, an even slighter edge.while i agree with you on phil's example (that he shouldn't have done that), the reference has nothing to do with the argument. out of context: we are in a debate over automanufacturing and you are talking about buying a sterman.

[bascomeb 0]

Navy- Think about this. If the small blind moves in on you everytime and you are only going to call if you see pocket Aces, then this will happenThe odds of receiving Pocket Aces is 220-1 i believe. If 50 is the big blind then you will see the big blind 200 times. Assuming you go even the other times you aren't the blind. So basically with your strategy you will get blinded up before you actually receive your "optimal" situation

[Abbaddabba 0]

I guess I'm the forum idiot...but I VERY RARELY commit all of my chips preflop in a tournament.

Doubtful.Most tournaments require you to push in the later stages repeatedly.Unless you exclusively play deepstack tournaments with very small fields, you'll have put all your chips in preflop several times before making a final table... and once you make it, you'll have to put it all in preflop several tims again.And it doesnt really even make sense to distinguish between preflop and postflop. Do you fold an overpair if a guy pushes his whole stack and shows you a low flush draw before you have to make your decision? It's the same basic idea.

[navybuttons 15]

Navy- Think about this. If the small blind moves in on you everytime and you are only going to call if you see pocket Aces, then this will happenThe odds of receiving Pocket Aces is 220-1 i believe. If 50 is the big blind then you will see the big blind 200 times. Assuming you go even the other times you aren't the blind. So basically with your strategy you will get blinded up before you actually receive your "optimal" situation

tomorrow you may realize how silly this sounds. besides-why would i only call if i have pocket aces? there are other situations where you are a 4:1 favorite. do you not agree that we are talking theory? "in the first hand of the main event do you call off all your chips as only a 3:2 favorite?"and then everyone started asking all these questions and had all these examples out of context that didnt relate to the original question. i answered why i believe the call is wrong and then when these other questions started and i got stuck posting about why the silly question was wrong.however, thinking about the original question, i have no doubt that my answer is correct (as i'm sure the opposition does too). trying not to sound like too much of a prick i would like to relate my sympathies if you think calling is the correct play. (my guess is this relates to you being a weak player overall)

[trystero 0]

i disagree. i believe bascomeb is using conventional wisdom (if we are ahead then call) and math (which i don't really see), when those who refute him are using what they may regard as probably a more advanced tournament theory. (who's violent? and who's attacking him? we are discussing a point at hand)again, do you not agree that winning w/o showdown is the best way to accumulate chips? we are not 2:1, we are 3:2, an even slighter edge.while i agree with you on phil's example (that he shouldn't have done that), the reference has nothing to do with the argument. out of context: we are in a debate over automanufacturing and you are talking about buying a sterman.

I used the example regarding Phil to make a point about gut reactions, not to extend my argument. What Phil did seems to be correct at face value but statistically is incorrect. The same applies here. When you investigate the numbers as shown in the Matros article, your actual chances of winning are so slim that you should push edges like 3:2 early.

[navybuttons 15]

I used the example regarding Phil to make a point about gut reactions, not to extend my argument. What Phil did seems to be correct at face value but statistically is incorrect. The same applies here. When you investigate the numbers as shown in the Matros article, your actual chances of winning are so slim that you should push edges like 3:2 early.

the story is a person giving up equity in a cash game. in no way relates to whether or not a person should call 10000 with a 3:2 edge with blinds at 25/50 in a 7 day tournament.there is so much wrong in this thread i am done with it. i feel like i am talking at a wall. goodluck at poker.

[mcpickl 0]

Ask yourself this. If someone is going to be pushing in every hour, on the hour with Q-J face up, and you have AK , do you call everytime? If so, how long into day1 do you last ?

do i have my opponent covered?

[crimethink_ 0]

Just in case anyone finds this interesting or enlightening:"if you knowingly pass up a 60:40 opportunity, you're not a top player." -Greg Raymer"I've said I'll take ANY edge (or even ANY COIN FLIP) early, and that NOBODY is good enough to intentionally refuse a 60/40 edge early. Repeatedly applying a 60/40 edge would make you one of the top players intournament poker." -Paul PhillipsFrom this thread.

[bascomeb 0]

Doubtful.Most tournaments require you to push in the later stages repeatedly.Unless you exclusively play deepstack tournaments with very small fields, you'll have put all your chips in preflop several times before making a final table... and once you make it, you'll have to put it all in preflop several tims again.And it doesnt really even make sense to distinguish between preflop and postflop. Do you fold an overpair if a guy pushes his whole stack and shows you a low flush draw before you have to make your decision? It's the same basic idea.

i think this is spot on. you guys keep saying you're not risking your tournament life preflop but whether you risk your stack on flop or preflop, its the same idea

[reedmcneal 0]

You guys are lucky Actuary hasn't seen this.If you want real answers post this in Strategy.Otherwise, I'll just tell you that you are an idiot not to take the 2:1 edge.That is all.

Just in case anyone finds this interesting or enlightening:"if you knowingly pass up a 60:40 opportunity, you're not a top player." -Greg Raymer"I've said I'll take ANY edge (or even ANY COIN FLIP) early, and that NOBODY is good enough to intentionally refuse a 60/40 edge early. Repeatedly applying a 60/40 edge would make you one of the top players intournament poker." -Paul PhillipsFrom this thread.

TYOr I guess they are donkeys...

[sdnuol 0]

did anyone notice dutch said he doesnt even have a 100k br even after winning that braclet?

[simo_8ball 0]

OK, I'm sorry to have to do this, but this is definitely the time and place to bring in the 'everyone goes allin first hand and you have aces - do you calll?' question.LinkFor this thread's discussion, you are a 2:1 favourite in a 20,000 pot.2/3 you are on 20k1/3 you are on 0overall, you are on 40k/3 = 13,333You are trying to say that it is correct to give up over 3k because you think you can outplay your opponents?Here is a Paul Phillips post which defines this thread (substitute Young Jedi for the names of those who think you should fold):" YoungJedi: "I'm a freaking idiot." PaulP: "Here's a very polite and complete explanation of where you went wrong, for no apparent reason other than kindness." YoungJedi: "STOP THAT, F.UCKHEAD. I SAID I'M AN IDIOT AND I MEANT IT."My apologies for briefly getting in the way of your ambition."

[Loismustdie 0]

So, if A-K warrants calling off all of your chips first hand in a tourney, what else are you willing to do it with, knowing your opponent has Q-J? 5-5 through 9-9? Or do you need 10-10 through K-K and then throw in A-K as well? I would call here with the A-K if the opponent had Q-J, all day, every day, and I would get dicked about, say, 40% of the time. I would have to though, given said opponent for some dumbass reason shows me his Q-J. I would have to, and would hate doing it, knowing that I am racing for all of my chips without a made hand on the first hand of this big buy in tourney, which in my mind is just a shitty way to start the day- 40% of the time I am going home. To fold would be a mistake though- a small one, but still a mistake.

[crimethink_ 0]

So, if A-K warrants calling off all of your chips first hand in a tourney, what else are you willing to do it with, knowing your opponent has Q-J? 5-5 through 9-9? Or do you need 10-10 through K-K and then throw in A-K as well?

You should be calling basically anytime doing so would be +$EV, which will vary based on the payout structure of the tourney.

[Loismustdie 0]

You should be calling basically anytime doing so would be +$EV, which will vary based on the payout structure of the tourney.

So you advocate calling off 10,000 in chips against an all in push from a guy you know has Q-J with 5-5, first hand of the ME? Just clarifying.