high pocket pair play in multi table tournament

[Rocketwadster 0]

I played in three NL Hold-em Multi's this morning (all had over 600 players). Here is what happened in each of them.First tourney - blinds are still low (I think it was 15-30), I have 200 chips (from 800 to start). Get pocket kings in middle position. One limper before me, I raised $500 (which is over 16 times the big blind), next guy calls, guy after him re-raises another $100 (what a weak play that was), every folds to me, I go all in, first caller to my raise goes all-in also (less chips than me), re-raiser calls (more chips than me). Ends up the callers had Ace seven offsuit and pocket queens. I lose when an ace comes on the flop and get no help. I finish like 467.Second tourney - again, blinds are still low (this one was around 20-40 at this time). I get pocket aces in small blind, with about 750 in chips (havent played a hand yet I don't believe). Three limpers before me, I raise $500 again (about 12 times the big blind), two calls than a re-raise all-in, which puts me all in if I call. I go all-in as well, other two callers fold. I'm up against 10 jack suited, who makes a straight to bust me out.Third (and final) Tourney of the day - blinds are at 15-30, I have $900 in chips, get pocket kings in dealer position. All fold to me, I raise to $400 (13 times the big blind), both call. Flop comes 4 ace ace rainbow. Check, check, I bet $200 to see where I am at, both call. Turn is a 7, no flush possible now. I figure with the two calls, I have at least one of the two guys with an ace and weak kicker, with the other guy possibly having a straight draw, as they didnt raise me. I am down to $300 in chips after these bets I put in. It comes check, check, and I'm stuck as to what to do. I decide to check. River is a 9. No help to me. First guy bets $100, second guy calls, and I fold. First guy had pocket jacks, second guy had pocket queens. I folded my pocket kings to lose the majority of my chips. Busted out not too long after that with two pair to a set of fours. Can someone please tell me how else I should have played these hands. The first two, I never should have played seeing as hind-sight is 20/20, and the third one I was outplayed I guess. High pocket pairs in a Multi table tourney seem to be my deathwish.

[dbrent2 0]

I think you put too much of your money at risk that early in the tourney, atleast the first 2 events. The last event, I would have called or even gone all in because of the small bet on the river. But that is me

[SabaAba 0]

First tourney you said you had 200 and raised 500? huh? Anyway, assuming you had 800 and raised 500, that's the worst move you can make. Why ar you raising 500 when you have 800 or less left, you might as well just raise all in. Which is what ended up happening, but you didn't play it well. With blinds at 15-30 a raise of 120 or even 150 is sufficient. You are trying to get a caller and make sure no A on flop. Second tourney again, with AA, once you raise 500 out of your 750, that's stupid, either raise 150 or all of it. 500 you are calling anything on the flop anyway, so make sure to get it all in the first place.Third. This is the worst hand you played yet. You can't fold for a 100 bet on the river, are you crazy? There is over 2000 in chips in the pot and you are folding 100? that means you have to be 95% certain that they have an A to beat you. I doubt you where that certain. If the guy had an A, he would have check raised you on the flop. Regardless, again you can't bet 400 out of your 900 chips and then 200 more out of your 500. AND THEN FOLD, NO NO NO.Glad you posted this, hopefully you will get the same hands again and play them better.Good Luck

[ChuckSty 0]

follow the advice above it was very well put

[benhoug 0]

I'm a firm believer in raising the same amount no matter what you have. If you're going to come in for a raise it should be about the same. If you always raise 3 or 4 times the big blind it's hard for somebody to put you on a hand, but if you raise 3x the BB w/ AK and 15X the BB w/ AA any player with any experience will know exactly what two cards you hold. It's the same type of mistake that inexperienced players make when there is no raise and they move all in w/ a hand like QQ or JJ. Either they're going to pick up the blinds (which are very small in the stages of the tournament you're talking about) or they're going to get called by a hand that beats them.

[custom36 4]

Raise about 4 or 5 xbb preflop. If you're reraised, call. See the flop. If it's all lower cards, move all in. If there's an A, it's likely trash. You're putting too much at risk preflop.

[Socrates 0]

I agree with all the input here about the 4-5x raise. I'd also advise reading a book or two before you continue losing money.

[the_stein 0]

So you are on of those annoying people that raises 500 when the blinds are 15/30... "I'll see your 30 and here is 500 more"

[Uppie_ 0]

I agree with the advice given above and if you playing low stakes touraments or free rolls which i assume you are in by the amounts your betting and the hands that are calling or re raiseing you all in, early on in the tourament. it isn't a bad idea to move it in pre flop you want a call that is true but it seems like they are willing to call you with some weak hands, only problem is it is dangerous to do you do risk going broke and as a general rule it is a bad idea to risk a lot of you stack early on in touraments. But, and i am not trying to rip on you ,but in your third example folding the river does show that your after the flop play isn't super so these may be hands you are married to anyway so if you put it in you put the pressure on them to call with a weaker hand. If your playing higher levels or even later on in these touraments a standard bet no matter what you are playing makes you very hard to play and is probably how you should play. GL

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

For the first two hands...You got all your money in preflop with a premium pocket pair and got sucked out on twice by inferior hands. It happens. All you can hope is for your made hands to hold up, and they won't always. Nothing wrong with getting it all in there with the best of it.The biggest problem with the 3rd hand that I can see (and don't take this the wrong way) is how weirdly you played it. You make a raise pre-flop for almost half your chips... at a pot with nothing in it but the blinds. Basically you've committed yourself to the river no matter what happens. Then the board douches you and you're in a very bad situation.The best way to remedy that is to make potsized bets or slight overbets. Your overbets preflop are an order of magnitude higher than a normal overbet. Instead of just using a numerical multiplier of the big blind... just do 2 BB's more than what a potsized raise would be. That way you're charging the limpers more with respect to the pot, and not killing yourself with the best hand. Again, though, there's nothing wrong with being all-in preflop with AA or KK in a tournament.That said, there's ALSO nothing wrong with getting too much money in preflop with what is surely the best hand. Keep getting all in/calls preflop with AA and KK, and that will turn around, I promise you.I wrote a very long post outlining the strategies I use in multi-table tournaments. I by no means claim to be the authority, but maybe you'll find it helpful. It's under the "poker strategy" section and it's titled "My system for multitable tournaments." Good luck to you in the future!

[Rocketwadster 0]

The first tourney was a typo, I had 2000 chips.FYI - In these Multi's, the buy-in is pretty small ($10, $5, and $2.50), so every time I put in 5 or 6 times the BB, I get a ton of callers. The larger pre-flop bet is to hopefuly eliminate the drawing hands (ie. 8 9 suited), so I am only up against pockets or ace X. I have read many a book, but they are more for the higher stakes games and tourneys. With these low buy-ins, people with more money than brains call with just about anything. Just this Saturday (after my post), I got called on my all-in (pocket fives) to queen 4 offsuit, and of course a four came up.I played again just this morning, down to 25 players from 212, only top 20 win money. I have folded ace queen offsuit twice in the last 5 hands, would have lost with both had I called. I'm pretty low in chips at this point, unlikely to last if I just sit out. I get ace ace in the small blind. I raise 5 times the big blind, get two callers. Flop comes 7, 4, 9, with two diamonds (one of my aces was a diamond). I go all-in, get a caller with K 9 of diamonds. Turn is a rag, but of course a diamond comes on the river so I get put out. Had I raised higher pre-flop like I had been doing, would he have called? I doubt it. Trust me when I say that on the site that I am currently playing, I have tried it both ways, and both have had limited success, and more failure than not, using both methods (4-5 times the bb, and 10-15 times the bb).As far as the third game goes in my original post, how can someone in my position not think that at least one of my opponents has an ace? They called every bet I made. Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but it was a judgement call, which I would make again if the exact same situation came up, regardless of how many chips I had put in. I was 100% sure that at least one of them had an ace, and they would have been thinking the same thing. It just ends up that my opponents were braver (or more foolish) than I was.

[21gambit 0]

I know the reason people play like this early on with high-pocket pairs, its the same reason I do it early on in SNGs. At the beginning, the blinds are so low that noone notices or cares that youve raised 5x the bb, all they know is that its less than 1/10th of their stack so they might as well call to try build their stacks early. Weak players love to do this, this is why I hate seeing AA at the start of a tourney, I play the rockets hard and fast because I dont want to get stuck with 5 people in the pot, and everyone trying to catch that 2nd pair on me. Early on in tourneys, fast hard play is the only thing that makes sense to me, but only with AA and KK. The other hands will only be called if you are beaten(Actually, I dont think thats always true, I remember folding JJ to 3 all ins, only to see A3, A10 and A9, the JJwouldhave tripped too!)

[brisk 0]

you raised from 30 to 500 (when you sadi you only had 200)... and got re-raised 100??? that is illegal, min reraise would be to 970. get your hands straightas far as the hands ... i say you should not fault yourself for getting your $$ in with the best hand ... part of poker is getting outdrawn. in the long run, you want that J-10 calling b/c they more often will just double you up. as far as folding to $100 on tourney 3 ... its costing you 100 for 2000 ... pretty good odds if you ask me. i guess if you're possitive you're beat its a good fold, but i'd still call in a heartbeat. and you weren't outplayed ...neither of them expected you to fold to a $100 bet ... you were just stupid. no offense

[Rocketwadster 0]

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what people have said regarding the 4-5x bb, but please explain how that would have helped me in those tourneys? I ended up with basically all of my chips in the pot, with the best hand pre-flop, and lost. All that would have happened had I raised a lesser amount pre-flop would be that someone else raised me, or more people would have limped in. Either way, my money wtill would have went into the middle before the last cards came out. Therefore, there is no fault in how I played them pre-flop. The hand where i folded on the river may have been a bad play in retrospect, but I was 100% convinced that at least one guy had an ace, and when you are that sure, you get out and try to pick up the pieces in the hands to come. In my experience, trying to trap with pocket aces or kings early in a tourney is a disaster waiting to happen.

[benhoug 0]

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what people have said regarding the 4-5x bb, but please explain how that would have helped me in those tourneys?  I ended up with basically all of my chips in the pot, with the best hand pre-flop, and lost.  All that would have happened had I raised a lesser amount pre-flop would be that someone else raised me, or more people would have limped in.  Either way, my money wtill would have went into the middle before the last cards came out.  Therefore, there is no fault in how I played them pre-flop.

It's not about when you have a huge hand, but when you don't. By playing one kind of hand drastically different than another you are tipping the strength of your hand. It may not have mattered in any of the examples you mentioned, but trust me, it's a good rule to play by

[justblaze 0]

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what people have said regarding the 4-5x bb, but please explain how that would have helped me in those tourneys?  I ended up with basically all of my chips in the pot

theres your answer, fishbulb. You put almost all your chips in. why? but all three of these hands were terribly played, not to mention the whole story sounds made up. you bet 500, and got reraised 100? Huh? and what site is spreading MTTs with starting chipcounts of 800?

[Rocketwadster 0]

Pacific Poker is the site. Trust me, these happened. And again, I am not disagreeing with 4-5X the big blind, as that is exactly how i play in Sit-N-Go's, but with these low $ MTT's, allowing someone to get the flop fairly cheaply will only hurt you. Especially on this site it seems.I believe i had a typo, in that I had 1200 in chips, not 200 as shown (I answered someone else as well saying I had 2000 as that was my first guess on the typo, but when I went back and looked at the game it was 1200). Your darn right I am tipping the strangth of my hand early. I want them to think (know) I have a monster. I was not trying to hide anything, as I do not believe in trapping at that stage of the tourney, in the table positions I was in. I would gladly have received the small pots had everyone folded, rather than have the callers I did and bust out. Had I played them slow, I would have played it the exact same way I did after the flop, as I was not going to throw away my monster hands in the first two tourneys.Someone mentioned to read a book or two so I don't lose any more money. Has anyone besides me read Super System (the first one not the second)? I re-read the chapter in NL with pocket aces and kings, and played it just like Doyle suggests he plays the majority of the time. I highly doubt that more than a scant few of the people reading these forum's would have been able to throw these hands away after the flop, with those people who would have been able to fold them folding either due to the wrong reasons, or due to a misclick.One final comment back to someone who posted in this thread, yes I am one of those "annoying" people who make you pay to see some cards. No free cards from me, if I can help it. You don't want to call the very large raise with your 10 jack suited or your pocket 7's? Good, as that is exactly what I wanted to do.

[justblaze 0]

Pacific Poker is the site.  Trust me, these happened.  And again, I am not disagreeing with 4-5X the big blind, as that is exactly how i play in Sit-N-Go's, but with these low $ MTT's, allowing someone to get the flop fairly cheaply will only hurt you.  Especially on this site it seems.I believe i had a typo, in that I had 1200 in chips, not 200 as shown (I answered someone else as well saying I had 2000 as that was my first guess on the typo, but when I went back and looked at the game it was 1200).  Your darn right I am tipping the strangth of my hand early.  I want them to think (know) I have a monster.  I was not trying to hide anything, as I do not believe in trapping at that stage of the tourney, in the table positions I was in.  I would gladly have received the small pots had everyone folded, rather than have the callers I did and bust out.  Had I played them slow, I would have played it the exact same way I did after the flop, as I was not going to throw away my monster hands in the first two tourneys.Someone mentioned to read a book or two so I don't lose any more money.  Has anyone besides me read Super System (the first one not the second)? I re-read the chapter in NL with pocket aces and kings, and played it just like Doyle suggests he plays the majority of the time.  I highly doubt that more than a scant few of the people reading these forum's would have been able to throw these hands away after the flop, with those people who would have been able to fold them folding either due to the wrong reasons, or due to a misclick.One final comment back to someone who posted in this thread, yes I am one of those "annoying" people who make you pay to see some cards.  No free cards from me, if I can help it.  You don't want to call the very large raise with your 10 jack suited or your pocket 7's?  Good, as that is exactly what I wanted to do.

you still havent explained how someone was able to raise 100 over a 500 bet. also, how did this bet re-open the betting to you? seems pretty suspect. but, in situation 1, i would have lost maybe 200 chips tops. open the betting for 120-150. easy fold when an ace hits the flop. instead, you decided to lose all your chips. situation 2, also doesnt make sense. It was early in a tourney with starting chip counts of 800, yet 2 players called 500 cold and then folded for a reraise? how big was the reraise? and why didnt you go all in straight away? what were you planning to do with those 300 chips? situation 3, the raise preflop is way too big. make it 150. on the flop you are betting 200 into a 1200 pot. huh? whats the point of that. on the turn, you are worried about a straight draw!?! someone called 400 cold with 56? i think not. and you fold on the end getting 18-1 on the call?

[benhoug 0]

Had I played them slow, I would have played it the exact same way I did after the flop, as I was not going to throw away my monster hands in the first two tourneys.

Raising 3-5 times the big blind is not playing something slow. Playing something slow is limping and trying to trap. I'm not suggesting you do that, I'm suggesting you play them straightforward and raise, just not a HUGE amount like15X the BB. I too have read Supersystem, as have a lot of people on this forum, and I don't recall Doyle ever saying anything about over-raising w/ big pocket pairs. He may re-raise that much w/ AA, but I'm pretty sure he says raise it 3-5 times the BB - just like everyone else is suggesting.

[goleafsgo 0]

For all those hands why not push before the flop. If your going to raise almost 1/2 your stack or more then your either commiting yourself to be all in or your folding KK when an ace hits but your losing 1/2 your stack. On the hand where the guy re-raised 100(underraise???) I think the play was definatly push. If your going to be worried about an ace hitting everytime you have KK, especially after half your chips are in the pot then your going to have some problems. On hand number 3 I would say definatly call the river. It was probably one of those times where you were just upset because you thought your kings got sucked out on but why fold. Take some time to think about it. The chances of someone playing an ace that softly are definatly not 100 percent and probably less then 95 meaning your getting odds on the call. Even if in a tournament odds are debatable relative to your chip stack but for 100 I think its an auto call the way the hand played out. But again if you don't want to get involved in having to worry about a call on the river then why not push preflop. QQ probably calls and in most tournaments so does JJ and you triple up and your looking money.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I suggest you re-read super system, the section on NL HE with pocket aces or kings. I don't have it in front of me, but Doyle says he will get all (or most of) his money in the pot pre-flop with these, and if he didn't he would after the flop. I did basically that, and lost. I'm done with this one, as there are way to many conflicting points about how else to play it. Some people agree with how I did it, others only seem to be able to say raise less pre-flop then get sucked out when 2 or 3 more people call you. I'm sorry I brought these up, as I have even been accused of making it up. Why would I do that? To show some more bad beat stories? Give me a break. I'm looking to improve my game, just like everyone else. In MTT's, you have to play differently than in Sit-N-Go's, which I think a lot of people are failing to recognize. I have been fairly successful so far in both (with my limited bankrolls), but don't have the success stories that I feel are a little suspect that others on this forum site have, but so be it. If someone can please tell me how to get the hand histories from Pacific Poker, my next post will have that in it so there is no doubt about what happened. All I can get from them is a "video" showing the hand over again.

[PUNNISHER 0]

First guy bets $100, second guy calls, and I fold. First guy had pocket jacks, second guy had pocket queens. I folded my pocket kings to lose the majority of my chips. Haven't read any respnse yet so if this is all recycled info I apologize. Huge mistake folding on the river for a 100$ bet. First off you had over 70% of ur chips in that pot, and to only call 100$ more for a chance at a HUGE pot, you MUST make that call everytime. Secondly, I am not sure as to how "tight" you are playing, but maybe you would wanna loosen up a bit, and play some more "marginal" hands and attempt to pick up smaller pots when in position. Tournament poker is mostly about position. You wanna be "chipping up" early that way if you do suffer one or 2 bad beats, it won't be for all of your chips. Lastly, although you were getting dealt premium hands, I do not agree with making such premium raises pre flop. If you were playing small pots early, it would make it that much easier to get away from your big hands. Leave the HUGE bet poker for when the blinds are HUGE and they are worth stealing. When the blinds go up, then you can get involved in a big pot. Usually by this time many of the "bad" players are weeded out, and you will find that your "good" starting hands often hold up with a higher win %. Hope this helps.L*

[justblaze 0]

these hands seem highly unlikely to be real. the betting sequences you created were absurd. players coldcalling for half their stacks in the first level of a MTT with suited aces? players calling 500, and then folding for a reraise in the 2nd level of a MTT? MTTs with starting stacks of 800? As well, in one of your examples, the betting sequence was a clear violation of basic poker rules and would not be allowed on pacific poker, or any other online site. you cannot make a reraise of less than the original raise. even if the reraiser had gone all in (which according to you he didnt as he was able to call your all in) for another 100, you would not have been able to raise again, as the raise must be at least 50% of the bet in order to re-open the betting to the original bettor.