Heat Vs. Pistons

[Jadaki 0]

Wade took the Heat to the second round of the playoffs his rookie year with basically the lineup Kobe coudlnt get into the playoffs with last year.Says a ton about him imo.And Pistons big men beign in foul trouble is hardly why Wade can drive, its because no one can stay in front of him. Considering the way he was eatting the floor driving to the basket the last game you can't say their big men are backing off.He is shooting 70% for the series... thats just sick.And I don't get why the players on the pistons are bitching about Flip now, they were praising him all eyar about the new offense freedom and how much they liked it better than under Larry Brown.I like watching them crumble...

[princeof56k 0]

I'm not saying Shaq is the main reason for Wade's success. It is no doubt Wade's team and he is just playing unbelievable ball right now (and has all season). All I'm saying is that Shaq's contribution isnt small by any means. Eventhough he's older and slower, he is still a huge factor.

And I don't get why the players on the pistons are bitching about Flip now, they were praising him all eyar about the new offense freedom and how much they liked it better than under Larry Brown.

Totally agree with you, but I'll go further with this. I'm totally dissapointed in some of the Pistons. No doubt Flip is being setup to be the scapegoat here. And the payers gripes dont even make sense. Not enough focus on defense? Their problem is that they cant score. They havent had a good offensive game since game 1 against the Cavs. Flip is right if he's worried about the offense. I hate that some of the players bailed on him after game 3. This team is done.Assuming that they do lose and there's a mutiny, I fully expect Flip to be let go. Normally I wouldnt let him go, but if the teams not behind him, you have to hire someone else. And for all the success this team has had, if Flip is indeed fired, that would make 3 coaches in 4 years! Thats a lot. Especially for a team of this caliber. I'm starting to wonder if this isnt the great bunch of guys we thought they were.

[Guest Guest]

This pistons team was way overconfident - which was fine when they looked like they were going to run over everyone as they did through game 1 of the cavs series - but you'd have thought they would have woken up after seriously coming a hair width from losing to the cavswhy they can't score is sort of a mystery to me - hell why rasheed wallace doesn't average 40 points a game is a mystery to me

[LAS22 0]

This pistons team was way overconfident - which was fine when they looked like they were going to run over everyone as they did through game 1 of the cavs series - but you'd have thought they would have woken up after seriously coming a hair width from losing to the cavswhy they can't score is sort of a mystery to me - hell why rasheed wallace doesn't average 40 points a game is a mystery to me

Very true! His problem is that he makes 1 or 2 three's and he falls in love with it. When your power forward is 6'11" and has an inside/outside game he should dominate.

[Guest Guest]

I'm not saying Shaq is the main reason for Wade's success. It is no doubt Wade's team and he is just playing unbelievable ball right now (and has all season). All I'm saying is that Shaq's contribution isnt small by any means. Eventhough he's older and slower, he is still a huge factor.Totally agree with you, but I'll go further with this. I'm totally dissapointed in some of the Pistons. No doubt Flip is being setup to be the scapegoat here. And the payers gripes dont even make sense. Not enough focus on defense? Their problem is that they cant score. They havent had a good offensive game since game 1 against the Cavs. Flip is right if he's worried about the offense. I hate that some of the players bailed on him after game 3. This team is done.Assuming that they do lose and there's a mutiny, I fully expect Flip to be let go. Normally I wouldnt let him go, but if the teams not behind him, you have to hire someone else. And for all the success this team has had, if Flip is indeed fired, that would make 3 coaches in 4 years! Thats a lot. Especially for a team of this caliber. I'm starting to wonder if this isnt the great bunch of guys we thought they were.

Yea, I think Flip is going to end up being the scape goat for them underachieving. When I watch them play, they just don't look like they are trying on defense, did the Pistons magically forget how to play on that half of the court? I don't buy this as Flips fault, his players expected to steamroll through the playoffs without trying and now that they ran into a team that is putting in more effort on both ends of the court.As far as Wade vs. Lebron.LeBron may have more natural talent, but I think Wade has more of the intangibles. If I needed one basket at the end of the game I would put it in Wade's hands over LeBron's anyday. He has more experience being the go to guy on a team (college/Final Four) and already has more experience in big time NBA games since he took a bad team to the playoffs his rookie year and was in the conference finals last year which they probably would have won if he didn't get hurt. It took LeBron 3 years to get to the playoffs, though he did put on a good show this year.Shaq helps like you said prince, but Wade has done it on teams without dominant centers before.

[Jadaki 0]

The above was me, stupid cookies

[NarSARSsist 0]

Wade took the Heat to the second round of the playoffs his rookie year with basically the lineup Kobe coudlnt get into the playoffs with last year.Says a ton about him imo.

Yes, it also says a ton about the difference between the Eastern and Western Conferences... 41-41 that year was good for making 5th seed in the East (and Miami was 4th with 42-40, which would not have been good for making the playoffs in the West). In the West? You'd make a happy 10th seed.Don't forget, in general the Eastern Conference has much fewer heavy-hitters. If we look at the bottom of the list, I'd much rather play teams like Toronto and Atlanta...Of course, that's not to discredit Wade; I love him as a player. Still, your method is flawed.

[Jadaki 0]

Yes, it also says a ton about the difference between the Eastern and Western Conferences... 41-41 that year was good for making 5th seed in the East (and Miami was 4th with 42-40, which would not have been good for making the playoffs in the West). In the West? You'd make a happy 10th seed.Don't forget, in general the Eastern Conference has much fewer heavy-hitters. If we look at the bottom of the list, I'd much rather play teams like Toronto and Atlanta...Of course, that's not to discredit Wade; I love him as a player. Still, your method is flawed.

LeBron is in the East though, so how come it took him 3 years to get into the playoffs in the "weak" conference?Pistons won the championship that year didn't they... eastern conference right?

[keith crime 8]

you can't really fault lebron for not making the playoffs his first two years esp when comparing him to wadetheir first year out wade was a better player than lebron last year wade had shaq and lebron was trying to singlehanded bring a team in chaos to the finish line i love wade but there isn't a single gm in the league that would take him over lebronlebron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better passer and he's three years younger - and he works at his game - look at how much better his jumper is than when he came in the league again Wade is incredible and has been hitting big shots since he was a rookie but Lebron is a once in a lifetime talent

[Jadaki 0]

you can't really fault lebron for not making the playoffs his first two years esp when comparing him to wadetheir first year out wade was a better player than lebron

Sure you can, they were both on teams with weak talent bases in the same conference. They didn't have picks in the top 5 because they were shooting for the championship the year before. Also, didn't LeBron win ROY? Wade didn't even get any attention till the end of the year when it was clear the two best rookies were LeBron and Wade, not Anthony.

last year wade had shaq and lebron was trying to singlehanded bring a team in chaos to the finish line

Clevland isn't a talent deprived as you make it out to be, the have had a solid center since LeBron got there and have kept bringing in more players every year.

i love wade but there isn't a single gm in the league that would take him over lebron

Depends on what you want on your team, KG is argueably as talented a player in the league as there has been over the last 10 years, but that doesn't guarantee you championships does it? It's a team sport, and when you have a guy like Shaq who has played with a pretty big list of all stars saying Wade is the best teammate he has ever had, that says something. I realise someone is going to respond saying "of course he would say that with his current teammate", but he never said that about Kobe or anyone else.

lebron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better passer and he's three years younger - and he works at his game - look at how much better his jumper is than when he came in the league

I'd argue with you on the faster part, ask the Pistons defenders why they call him flash. Bigger yea, stronger... how you going to prove that? A better passer... maybe a little more flashy I don't know about better. And saying "he works on his game" is a weak arguement, are you saying other players don't?

again Wade is incredible and has been hitting big shots since he was a rookie but Lebron is a once in a lifetime talent

Thats why Wade is putting up numbers against the Pistons that LeBron couldn't? I'm not saying either of them are clearly better than the other, they are diferent types of players, but people have been putting LeBron on a pedestal since he was in the league and there is no way you can tell me that today he is hands down a better player than Wade.

[NarSARSsist 0]

LeBron is in the East though, so how come it took him 3 years to get into the playoffs in the "weak" conference?Pistons won the championship that year didn't they... eastern conference right?

A weaker conference doesn't mean every team is weak. It means that overall they are simply just not as good. I believe if you take a look at the list of teams that shows. An eastern road trip would be scary with Detroit, Miami, and the Nets, but a western road trip would be just as scary with any three of: Dallas, San Antonio, LA [sigh...Clippers ], Phoenix, heck, even teams like Memphis and Denver [when compared with the Nets, they can come out even depending on what part of the season you caught the Nets at].I never said that the east can't win championships. However, the list of contenders, especially including the black sheep surprises, would show that the east would fall rather short, especially in previous years, no?You said yourself. Basketball is a team sport. It's not just down to Lebron and Dwyane's performances. First of all, there is a reason why the Cavs got Lebron as their first pick. They had a horrendous 17-65 season. Lebron more than doubling that win number was already pretty good. Equally impressive is the jump from 25 wins to 42 wins after Wade came to the Heat, but it's just equally impressive, not necessarily more. It's not like Lebron can come to the Cavs and they instantly become godly. KG still had a great season, but the Wolves weren't even close. This isn't the first year that Elton Brand has been good, but the Clippers didn't even come close until this year [finally! yes!]. Besides, it's not like Lebron missed by a mile. He missed his first year by one game difference, and in his second year they were tied with the Nets, but were squeezed out by a poorer conference and division record [i think those are the first conditions? Or is it that heads up is more important? I forget].

Depends on what you want on your team, KG is argueably as talented a player in the league as there has been over the last 10 years, but that doesn't guarantee you championships does it? It's a team sport, and when you have a guy like Shaq who has played with a pretty big list of all stars saying Wade is the best teammate he has ever had, that says something. I realise someone is going to respond saying "of course he would say that with his current teammate", but he never said that about Kobe or anyone else.

You're right. Because before he came to the Heat he never needed anybody . Jk.

I'd argue with you on the faster part, ask the Pistons defenders why they call him flash. Bigger yea, stronger... how you going to prove that? A better passer... maybe a little more flashy I don't know about better. And saying "he works on his game" is a weak arguement, are you saying other players don't?

Stronger I would guess probably comes from the fact that when Wade drives to the hole he tends to out-manuever his opponents rather than Lebron, who tends [neither of these are absolutes, just tendencies] to be more direct. Lebron also played football, so chances are he is stronger. Besides, he's got a more bulky look as opposed to Wade, who looks more lithe and agile.

Thats why Wade is putting up numbers against the Pistons that LeBron couldn't?

I agree that the "once in a lifetime talent" statement is a bit silly. However, as for Wade putting up better numbers than Lebron, I think it comes from the presence of the rest of the team. I was rooting for the Cavs, but it was insanely frustrating watching them miss so many open jumpers off of Lebron's feeds . The stronger rest-of-team presence makes life easier for Wade. However, that does not excuse Lebron enough to make him better than Wade. It just means it just wasn't really as bad as it seemed.I do feel that Wade is more mature as a player than Lebron, as he tends to have better shot selection. In the Pistons series he shoots a little less but maintains great accuracy. However, I don't know if that comes from Wade feeling that he has others to depend on whereas Lebron, after watching his teammates miss like the 8th open jumper, might feel that he has to take it upon himself. I just know that it was really annoying me to watch him [Lebron] shoot those guarded long jumpers when he could have tried something better.

[Azreous 0]

Thats why Wade is putting up numbers against the Pistons that LeBron couldn't?

What numbers?Wade:25 pts./3 reb./5 ast.32/7/535/8/431/6/523/3/4Lebron:22/4/430/14/721/10/1022/8/932/5/532/11/527/8/2I'm not getting into the argument of which is better because they're both superior talents, and Wade is still in danger of having another similar number to Lebron: Just three wins against the Pistons. Any other talk of this should be suspended until the Heat make the Finals.

[Oziumrules 0]

GO HEAT!

[keith crime 8]

Comparing Z to Shaq is with all due respect silly - everyone says that Z is the second best center in the league but really all that means is no one else has anyone that matters - in fact Z has been sort of phased out by the new rules - he scores a few points but he was on the bench in crunch time during most of the playoffsI love Wade and he definitely performed during the time that Shaq was out but even at his advanced age - when Shaq is on the floor the entire defense has to be focused on him- its impossible to single cover himThe key to the NBA is having players that demand double teaming and the cavs have no one who needs to be double teamed - half their guys don't even need to be single teamed - the majority of Lebron's teammates score their points on hustle - I think Z led the league in tip ins off of Lebron's drivesIf the cavs had a guy who could bury open threes they'd be sick - because Lebron is always doubled sometimes (Pistons) tripled and he can pass over those defensesSadly right now he does so to a bunch of bricklayers If the vote had happened after the playoffs Wade probably would have been rookie of the year - his PT didn't start to pick up until about midseason - don't forget that Lebron is three years younger!Can you imagine how sick that pistons team would have been with Wade or hell even carmelo and not Darko

[Jadaki 0]

If the cavs had a guy who could bury open threes they'd be sick - because Lebron is always doubled sometimes (Pistons) tripled and he can pass over those defensesSadly right now he does so to a bunch of bricklayers

Funny, they signed the best 3 point shooter the Heat had last year.All I see is a bunch of excuses why Wade has some golden path layed out before him and that LeBron has to do everything the hard way.Maybe there is something to be said for a player maturing in college.Wade understands the flow of the game, he does what he needs to do at the right time, he doesnt jack up 35 shots a game or cry if his open teammate misses a jumper. I dont think I could get 5 assists passing all day to Walker.

What numbers?

Want to compare shot % and production in the 4th quarter, Wade wins them hands down.

[keith crime 8]

well they did sign damon jones and he couldn't hit the side of a barn Larry Hughes never got off eitherLebron jacks up 35 shots a game because he has to if anything he's usually too unselfish

[Azreous 0]

Want to compare shot % and production in the 4th quarter, Wade wins them hands down.

If you insist.82games.com doesn't have the numbers up for the postseason until it has been completed, but here's the numbers for the regular season:James in the 4th quarter: 49.1%, 7.3 PPGWade in the 4th quarter: 45.8%, 6.7 PPGNow, Wade has obviously had the better postseason, and Lebron did struggle with his shot in the latter games of the series against the Pistons. But using this particular 82 game sample, Lebron was the superior fourth quarter player.Would I rather have Wade on my team in the 4th after their postseason performances? Probably. Do I think he might be the better player? Yes. But again, I find all of that to be meaningless until the Heat finish off the Pistons, preferably with a return to Games 2-4 form from Wade. Until then, I'm reserving judgment.

[keith crime 8]

i think its hard to say lebron didn't have a good postseasontwo game winners and sick stats vs the wizards and coming a odd bounce from a huge upset of the pistons

[Jadaki 0]

i think its hard to say lebron didn't have a good postseason

Oh he made his mark, he is a great player no doubt.

If you insist.

Ok, maybe I should have spelled it out a little better.I was comparing LeBron vs the pistons, to Wade vs the pistons in the playoffs.

[Azreous 0]

I was comparing LeBron vs the pistons, to Wade vs the pistons in the playoffs.

Which I already addressed in my first post. Their numbers are almost identical; both have three 30-point games (yes, Wade with two less opportunities), and Lebron has more rebounds and assists. Wade has shot better from the field. But this is where the supporting cast issue is that much more magnified: Wade has Shaq and a streaky Antoine Walker to help. Who showed up for the Cavs in the Pistons series besides Lebron? Larry Hughes, who they played better without? Big Z, who looked slow and ineffective? Drew Gooden? Lebron's teammates were a combined 9-41 (!) in Game 7, and with the attention of Prince and frequent double teams on him, James still shot almost 50 percent.I agree with your fundamental points in this thread, as well as most of what you've said -- and again, I also think Wade is the better player (and certainly in this postseason), but the "statistics" don't back you up any more than they back up David Ortiz being a better clutch hitter than Albert Pujols.

[SBriand 4]

Funny how Det vs Maimi topic is all about Lebron! :PShould be quite the game tonight!

[CaneBrain 95]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!What a close by the the Heat. Jason Williams....who knew!To throw in my two cents....I have seen Wade and Lebron's numbers against the pistons compared.You cant really declare them even though since wade is averaging all these points on ONLY 12-14 shots a game.Wade isnt necessarily better just more mature and has a better cast. Right now I take Wade. In a couple years Lebron probably....his ceiling IS higher. But right now Wade takes better shots, knows how to better keep his teammates involved, and seems to get less rattled late in the game. Wade is also the much much much better defensive player.However, Wade is also a few years older. No denying Lebron's talent. He probably will end up being better than Wade...but he isnt quite there yet.

[princeof56k 0]

What a game by Shaq! Wade wasnt feeling well so the Heat needed Shaq and he delivered.I think way too many people have written off Shaq. He cant dominate on a consistant basis like he used to, but he can still do it every once in a while when called upon. And he doesnt have to dominate with Wade on the team. I've always believed he was pacing himself this year so he would at least be somewhat healthy towards the end of the playoffs. It looks like that paid off. He seems very determined to win a title this year.And while I've said earlier that this is Wade's team, I might need to clarify that. Wade is there best player and his players look for him to win games. But from what I've read and seen, Shaq is leader of that club. He's a leader in the sense that he's the wise vetern who's been there before, and his leadership has likely been a big plus for Wade's career so far. That's not a knock on Wade. I think even Shaq would tell you that Wade is the Heat's best player and the player looked upon to win games. Butt in the locker room, I think Shaq might be a bigger factor than we realize.

[Jadaki 0]

I like the Heat in 6.

I win...

[gilbertology 0]

At the beginning of th eplayoffs I picked the Heat to get to the Finals. Not because they have two all-stars, but because Detroit was vastly overrated and lost a lot of the passion they held earlier in the year. I know if the Wizards would've beat the Cavs we would have definitely beat the Pistons. We were 3-0 against them in the regular season. Even though the Cavs won, the Pistons played terribly with no defense, which is their staple. In the Heat series, it was surprisingly the Heat who brought the superior D, holding the Pistons to terrible shooting percentage. Payton was like the old glove following around Chauncey and getting in his face ala what Lindsey Hunter did for the Pistons a year or two ago. Posey is a decent defensive player and Wade shut down Rip, who I've always thought is extremely overrated. That guy is nowheres close to Reggie Miller's class. More importantly, the Heat had a healthy, nast Shaq in the middle rebounding and blocking shots like a monster. When he went out of the game they had a similar presence in the middle with Zo. The Pistons two big men didn't play any offense this series, and Tayshaun had to lead the Pistons in scoring in most of their games. The final game Big Ben who is supposed to be a ball of rebounding energy got single digit rebounds. The Pistons simply lacked the fire to win this series and another NBA championship, possibly because of the lax coaching style of Flip Saunders. However, the Heat and Riley had that fire and passion and showed it on both ends of the courts. This final is going to be really good and will go 7 games.