Ryancpotts Jj Hand. Was It Really That Horrible?

[MikeR 0]

This is from ryancpotts blog.You will be sitting at the table in late-middle position and you will be dealt J-J on your very first hand. Nice. For anyone interested in learning the best methods of losing all your money as quickly as possible, remember this hand. J-J works perfectly almost every time.Someone before you will raise to $15 and you will then re-raise to $50. Everyone else at the table will fold, and the original raiser will call your re-raise. Aren’t you excited?The flop will come: Q 10 10 Your opponent will check to you and you should bet out for $100 to try to take it down right there. If you’re lucky, your opponent will then check-raise all-in for your remaining $150. At this point you will have to fold because you know that you’re beat. Nice. You’re off to a great start losing money! Isn’t this fun? Now several of you said this was one of the worst hands you've seen recently. Being a NL donk myself I'd like to hear why and to have you guys critique my thoughts.Ok, it's his very first hand at the table. Are you guys saying it was a bad play because he should have also checked instead of firing $100, or that he should have called? If his opponet has the 10 he tries to play it slower doesn't he? Or even if he has the Q?Just trying to learn this NL ring thing guys, and would like to hear your opinions.

[Legsarelikebutter 0]

It is a tough hand. I dont know. I guess you would have to fold, unless you are feeling lucking. Maybe went all in before the flop. Hell, if the flop was 223 and the guy reraised you all in. What would you do?? I dont know. I guess I would have to be there.

[DaBruins 0]

i think the biggest mistake is betting the pot right away on the flop. It's one thing to throw in a continuation bet or a feeler bet to see where you are, but you cant bet almost half your stack in doing so or else you're going to commit yourself when you dont want to be committed. I think a smaller bet is in order here, and if you get raised then you can throw it away. If you get called, the action will then depend on what the turn brings.

[MikeR 0]

It's one thing to throw in a continuation bet or a feeler bet to see where you are, but you cant bet almost half your stack in doing so or else you're going to commit yourself when you dont want to be committed.

So after betting that much on the flop should he go ahead and call the raise then?

[offset 0]

So after betting that much on the flop should he go ahead and call the raise then?

Nah, he has a made hand and you are not 25% to win.

[MikeR 0]

Nah, he has a made hand and you are not 25% to win.

And it being the first hand you have no idea if he's bluffing, correct?So the better play would have been a smaller continuation bet? Against a guy you've never seen play a hand before, maybe $30-$40?

[No_Neck 0]

this is a classic way ahead or way behind situation, what you don't want to do is to push allin, or even worse only put most of your chips in so he can raise you the rest of yours and put you to a tough decision.

[Wandigo 1]

I just don't get why he sounds so excited about getting pocket jacks and already having a raise, and having his re-raise get called. Personally, I like to win pre-flop with jacks and on a board of QTT you gotta be somewhat careful and not just fireout $100 like it's the nuts.

[dereeekho 0]

This may sound fishy and weak, but I almost never reraise preflop with JJ in a NL ring game.

[UncleKraut 0]

I really don't like the re-raise with JJ pre-flop. JJ is not a good enough hand to reraise in cash games, unless you have some information on your opponent: He raises with KJ, Q10, A6, etc...By just flat calling the raise you do not commit yourself to the pot, and you can see what the flop brings. If there's and A, K, Q out there, you know you might be beat and its easy to fold. Also, smooth calling will allow you to control the pot size, so you don't have to fire in a $100 continuation bet, but $20 will do just fine and give you the same information. If you get raised, dump it.

[MikeR 0]

This may sound fishy and weak, but I almost never reraise preflop with JJ in a NL ring game.

If he does reraise, is $50 appropriate with Jacks? Someone before him, meaning early or early/middle position raised, and he reraises more than 3 times the initial raise with Jacks. This can't be right can it?Am I weak in wanting to flat call in middle position with Jacks? If so can you explain?

[xtxoxpxd 0]

I really don't like the re-raise with JJ pre-flop. JJ is not a good enough hand to reraise in cash games, unless you have some information on your opponent: He raises with KJ, Q10, A6, etc...By just flat calling the raise you do not commit yourself to the pot, and you can see what the flop brings. If there's and A, K, Q out there, you know you might be beat and its easy to fold. Also, smooth calling will allow you to control the pot size, so you don't have to fire in a $100 continuation bet, but $20 will do just fine and give you the same information. If you get raised, dump it.

the preflop play is the atriocious part. original raised raised 7.5x the BB and he REraised to 25xBB. remember that he was playing 1/2NL and there was $100 in the pot going into the flop. he built a $100 pot preflop when half the time an overcard is gonna come to his jacks. that makes ANY decision going into the flop a tough one, almost regardless of what comes down (besides flopping a set).

[hardkorbeatz 0]

the preflop play is the atriocious part. original raised raised 7.5x the BB and he REraised to 25xBB. remember that he was playing 1/2NL and there was $100 in the pot going into the flop. he built a $100 pot preflop when half the time an overcard is gonna come to his jacks. that makes ANY decision going into the flop a tough one, almost regardless of what comes down (besides flopping a set).

moron, stfuanyways...list of villains possible hands considering the post flop action:aa,kk,qq(unlikely)1010(extremely unlikely) aq,kq,qj,a10,k10,q10(unlikely),j10,ak,kj,j9,no hand(more unlikely than 1010)against all but 3 of these a reraise was a good play as it usually is with jacks.the problem was the flop bet of $100 into a $100 pot. I can totally understand the bet. "he checked after calling preflop im probably good i gotta bet". Totally understand betting the pot here. The thing is if you go deeper into the hand you realize that the bet doesnt need to be so high. what will fold that wouldve called a smaller bet that you can still beat? Nothing! Except for a really weak call with kj,j9 and ak there is nothing. The fact is that you could be beat here,easily. Throw out a feeler bet about $50. The ONLY hand that calls is one that beats you. Sure he COULD call with ak,kj and j9 but those are the only hands you beat vs 11 that u dont. therefore if a call is made you are beat 11out of 14 times. if ur good u win whether u bet $50, $100 or all in. You dont want a call here so consider the best way to make him fold assuming that ur good. You should come to the conclusion that betting $50 is your move here.

[stealfromblind 0]

i think based on the fact he just sat down to the table, the preflop raise with jj was WAY too large. as for the aq hand, i don't know that its a hand that is worth a $15 raise RIGHT after you sat down in HORRIBLE position. most of the players at the table are going to think your steaming because of the previous pot and be more likely to call you with marginal hands, just to try to break you. which is exactley what happened.go read a book or something if your that bad at 1/2 i don't care if you still put your money in the game but don't make a post about it. and certainly don't whore your blog.

list of villains possible hands considering the post flop action:aa,kk,qq(unlikely)

hahaha, wow your a moron. its VERY likely he would check to the preflop raiser with a hand like aa, kk, qq, knowing that because of his huge preflop raise he was sure to put out a continuation bet. and after making this continuation bet he is going to put the rest of his $ in 80% of the time because he already commited half his stack. the chris moneymaker analysis, hahaha.-steal

[Jordan 1]

i dont think point of his post was a bad beat, or posting hands for strategy.but since this is started...i personally dislike the re-raise preflop full handed with no reads.i'd make this re-raise sometimes, but not often, and usually after i have a few reads on individuals and how the table is playing.flop kinda sucks for JJ, but pot is pretty big now for a 1/2 game so bleh...- Jordan

[hardkorbeatz 0]

hahaha, wow your a moron. its VERY likely he would check to the preflop raiser with a hand like aa, kk, qq, knowing that because of his huge preflop raise he was sure to put out a continuation bet. and after making this continuation bet he is going to put the rest of his $ in 80% of the time because he already commited half his stack. the chris moneymaker analysis, hahaha.-steal

i thought about that and u just cant say that he doesnt have those hands.f.uck you

[natan106 0]

The 100$ bet screams that you do not want a call and you want to take the pot down now. It means you have jj or lower in my opinion. If I have AK and I am the other guy, check raise all in is the best play in the world. It puts mad pressure on the raiser, and you still have outs. If I have jj I think it is a toss up to call or fold.

[Jordan 1]

The 100$ bet screams that you do not want a call and you want to take the pot down now. It means you have jj or lower in my opinion. If I have AK and I am the other guy, check raise all in is the best play in the world. It puts mad pressure on the raiser, and you still have outs. If I have jj I think it is a toss up to call or fold.

ignore this.- Jordan

[soup 0]

I don't mind the preflop re-raise. I don't like the amount of it. If you do re-raise, dbl his bet. A pot bet on the flop and you get the same info much cheaper. I'd rather see you call the first raise and bet the pot on the flop. Easy to lay with a board pair and an over.

[Jordan 1]

I don't mind the preflop re-raise. I don't like the amount of it. If you do re-raise, dbl his bet. A pot bet on the flop and you get the same info much cheaper. I'd rather see you call the first raise and bet the pot on the flop. Easy to lay with a board pair and an over.

people are giving you bad advice ryan. wow.don't min re-raise preflop. this isn't hte time to do that at all.goodness.- Jordan

[DudeSurprise 0]

Chaulk me up in the just call PF catagory...with no reads or idea on the makeup of the table I definitely can't see the point in building a huge pot. I don't want to be involved in a pot that size with a vulnerable hand like JJ, with no idea on the range villian opens with...especially 7.5x the BB. Even though live NL opening raises tend to be larger than typical online, it's rare that someone opening that large would lay down to a re-raise. The re-raise also commits hero to CB the flop pretty much no matter what comes out, whereas smooth calling makes getting to showdown on a Q 10 10 board much cheaper. I'd just rather play the hand a little weaker and fold to a fair bit of action on the flop/turn or check behind on the flop and see what villian does on the turn and reassess.

[timwakefield 68]

Re-raise preflop is not a good play here, unless you brought $2K with you and are planning on being the aggressor all night. First hand I think it is a clear call with JJ, or even a fold. Not only is it your first hand at the table, it sounds like the first time you've ever been to this club. Get some feeling of what people are raising/calling with, and then play. If you'd been sitting for a few hours then you might know that original raiser wouldn't raise that much from that position with less than QQ, or that he'll raise from any position with any ace, etc.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

i hate when that flop comes up with that hand

[NicksDad1970 0]

I really don't like the re-raise with JJ pre-flop. JJ is not a good enough hand to reraise in cash games, unless you have some information on your opponent: He raises with KJ, Q10, A6, etc...By just flat calling the raise you do not commit yourself to the pot, and you can see what the flop brings. If there's and A, K, Q out there, you know you might be beat and its easy to fold. Also, smooth calling will allow you to control the pot size, so you don't have to fire in a $100 continuation bet, but $20 will do just fine and give you the same information. If you get raised, dump it.

I hear what you're saying and I'm not saying you're wrong. I certainly have a lot to learn. But if you don't raise at all then one of the blinds might have something like the dredded Krabler and take it down when a K comes.Wouldn't you want to ,as a standard, mini raise to get some of those out?

[Scott3705 0]

1) everyone that is chirping on the 7.5BB raise... have you ever played a 1/2 live game? 15 is standard a lot of the time. (I try to make mine 10, but 15 is standard quite a bit).2) The reraise isn't that bad IMO. Maybe it's $5 too much, but everone who's saying, it's way too big, well, .... you just keep min raising preflop. I'd imagine this usually takes a pot down. Do we automatically give credit to everyone who bets for having Aces, kings, queens? We have a hand that plays fairly well heads up and god awful multi-way. Trying to take it down PF or the flop is pretty optimal.3) C-bet is standard on this board. I'd almost rather have seen it to be $50 again tho.The hand is not awful. The flop bet is a little large, but the mechanics are pretty good.