Qq For Everything Preflop.

[Suited_Up 2]

No real reads, I've been kinda playing on autopilot for about a half an hour or so. Nothing to write home about, KK, didn't get much action postflop, that's it.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$15 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $46.45CO: $40Suited_Up: $103.45SB: $99.15BB: $100.35Pre-flop: (5 players) Suited_Up is Button with [Qh] [Qd] UTG folds, Suited_Up raises to $3, SB raises all-in $99.15, BB folds...Hero-???Is QQ pretty much the minimum to make this call in a cash game?Personally, if he has AA or KK, he's either retarded or really smart. But I usually Err on the side of them being retarded.What do you think?

[Garn 0]

you sure he wasn't FCP making smash's AA preflop play? if so I would lay it down and find another table

[Suited_Up 2]

you sure he wasn't FCP making smash's AA preflop play? if so I would lay it down and find another table

Eh... Fairly sure. Usually I know the FCP'ers, or they know me.

[benhoug 0]

No real reads, I've been kinda playing on autopilot for about a half an hour or so. Nothing to write home about, KK, didn't get much action postflop, that's it.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$15 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $46.45CO: $40Suited_Up: $103.45SB: $99.15BB: $100.35Pre-flop: (5 players) Suited_Up is Button with [Qh] [Qd] UTG folds, Suited_Up raises to $3, SB raises all-in $99.15, BB folds...Hero-???Is QQ pretty much the minimum to make this call in a cash game?Personally, if he has AA or KK, he's either retarded or really smart. But I usually Err on the side of them being retarded.What do you think?

Sure QQ is a good hand, but there is NO REASON to call off that much w/ a hand that beatable. I think you have to fold this hand unless you've got a serious read on your opponent.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Generally, yes. QQ is the minimum. Five-handed, I actually think you have to make this call. I'll lay down QQ pre-flop, but it's got to be full ring and I've got to see really heavy action (usually from two other solid players).The other day I was playing 2/4 NLHE 4-handed and the SB min-raised me in the BB. Stacks were relatively deep and I had QQ. I re-raised and he moved in. I wasn't happy about it, but I called and he flipped over JJ, the board bricked, and I won a $600 pot.

[Royal_Tour 0]

how can you even post this?the only hand i'm comfortable goin up against here is jacks or worse, or AQ,and no way anyone is pushing all in preflop with either of those hands, annnd no way anyone is bluffing for 4bucks.my gut tells me he is praying you have AK or the like, cuz he probably has aces.most players at that level would almost love to get pushed all in with hands like AK, i dunno why they always seem to call for some reason.

[Jdr999 0]

I would rather move all-in with Queens than call this big all-in with Queens.Fold this unless you have a solid read that this player would not do this with Aces or Kings. But if you like to gamble, make the call.

[Suited_Up 2]

My reasoning was completely the opposite, but we've all got opinions, lol.I just figure he doesn't need to do this with AA or KK.... Most players min re-raise at most with those hands. If not slowplay them.I've seen people donk off like this with smaller pairs, or AK, AQ type hands a lot more than i've seen them do it with AA or KK.Just judging from what i've seen.

[iggymcfly 0]

Do you have some kind of read here? If he's been sitting back and folding a lot of hands (possibly playing Smash strategy, I'm pretty sure people outside FCP have used of it before), then you have to get away from this. However, if you've seen him lose a relatively big pot any time in the last 6 hands, then I'd definitely call. There's really two likely possibilities here:1. He has AA or KK and he's looking for action.2. He's bored or frustrated, and he wants to gamble.

[krup24 0]

I just figure he doesn't need to do this with AA or KK.... Most players min re-raise at most with those hands. If not slowplay them.

Most bad players min rereraiseThis is a very easy fold I don't care what he had

[petersun 0]

This is a tough call 5 handed. A bit of an easier fold 10 handed. With no reads, we're about 50/50 here (I'm simplifying a bit here by assuming no naked bluffs) where 1/3 of the time we're dominated 4 to 1 (AA, KK), 1/3 of the time we're ahead 4 to 1 (JJ, 10s, AQ) and 1/3 of the time we're even money (AK).Obviously, you might be getting the right odds to call (if you assume my breakdown), but it's not a great spot for a cash game. You'll get better/safer chances to double up. So, I'd fold. The $1 game is weak enough that you don't need to rely on a tight edge to get a profit.Naturally, any read that adjusts the breakdown of hands will sway the decision one way or the other. A pair of queens is after all, just a pair =)And yes, Qs are the minimum you'd consider calling here.

[Suited_Up 2]

Well, unfortunately I had no real reads. Which makes people choose the side of folding, but I felt pretty strongly that at this level, he is more likely to have one of the hands that I'm ahead of. AK was my first thought, but I've seen the move with smaller pairs (because people think at 6-max, with a medium pair, they're ahead of everyone preflop)... He doesn't assume I'm raising with QQ, thinks he's ahead with whatever he has, and wants to push hard.... I dunno why, but I've seen it before.Basically... I figured I'm ahead more hands than I'm behind, and while I'm not losing money by folding this... I think it's a bit more +EV to make this call, as I think I come out ahead in the long run....Here is the full hand.....Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$15 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $46.45CO: $40Suited_Up: $103.45SB: $99.15BB: $100.35Pre-flop: (5 players) Suited_Up is Button with [Qh] [Qd] UTG folds, Suited_Up raises to $3, SB raises all-in $99.15, BB folds, Suited_Up calls $96.15.Flop: [Jd] [5d] [8s] ($199.3, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $199.3)Turn: [6h] ($199.3, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $199.3)River: [4c] ($199.3, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $199.3)Results:Final pot: $199.3Suited_Up showed Qh QdSB showed As Kc

[BigFish 0]

Easy fold for me. I fold this hand in this spot 100% of the time. Why call hoping to be a coinflip???You have $3 invested, why invest another $100 and "hope" you have the best hand. Its very likely you are up against KK AA or most likely AK.If you want to bet all your money on a coinflip, go play blackjack.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I figured I'm ahead more hands than I'm behind, and while I'm not losing money by folding this... I think it's a bit more +EV to make this call, as I think I come out ahead in the long run....

Exactly. I don't know why everyone's thinking so short-term here. Poker is a game of edges played out over a long period. Good read and good call.

[krup24 0]

Exactly. I don't know why everyone's thinking so short-term here. Poker is a game of edges played out over a long period. Good read and good call.

He had no reads and was basically flipping a coin for his money. I see no real "edge" here. Sure poker is a game of edges over the long term so if you make this call everytime over the long period the rake wins not the player.

[Naismith 0]

Well, unfortunately I had no real reads. Which makes people choose the side of folding, but I felt pretty strongly that at this level, he is more likely to have one of the hands that I'm ahead of. AK was my first thought, but I've seen the move with smaller pairs (because people think at 6-max, with a medium pair, they're ahead of everyone preflop)... He doesn't assume I'm raising with QQ, thinks he's ahead with whatever he has, and wants to push hard.... I dunno why, but I've seen it before.Basically... I figured I'm ahead more hands than I'm behind, and while I'm not losing money by folding this... I think it's a bit more +EV to make this call, as I think I come out ahead in the long run....

I didn't get to respond to this before the results, but I call this. I'm willing to fold this same situation even in a shorthanded game if the positioning had been different. Very often, though, the blinds will push with weaker than normal hands when the button raises.I mostly play 5-10 NL and sometimes 10-20 and I've won huge pots raising from the button with a real hand only to have a blind push all in with something like A7. In my experience, more often than not, you're way ahead, sometimes you're flipping coins and rarely are you way behind.

[petersun 0]

Exactly. I don't know why everyone's thinking so short-term here. Poker is a game of edges played out over a long period. Good read and good call.

But according to this logic, over a large sample space, you'll be up only a small percentage. So for a typical bankroll of 3000 at $1NL, that means you'll make something like $30 to $90 over the long run (1% to 3% over the rake). Is that really a risk worth taking at this level?I agree with you that in higher-limit games against tougher opponents, you can't give up the edge, but the game is soft enough at $1 for you to wait for the better edges.With that being said, if you have any hint that your edige is something like 56/43 or 60/40, then it's clear that the edge is worth it in the long run. That's why this call is tough. You're working with small margins.

[iggymcfly 0]

The thing a lot of people forget is that while it's assumed that AK vs. QQ is a "coinflip", in reality, the QQ has a 57/43 edge. In Harrington on Hold 'Em, he always talks about how a pair vs. AK is a 13 to 10 edge, and uses that as justification for folding AK occasionally.If we knew that our opponent had AK, then our edge on this hand = 199.3 * .57 - 99.15 = $14.45. That's hardly a small enough edge that it will be "eaten up by the rake". In fact, since a good player usually only makes about the same amount that they give to rake in profit, this is actually a wildly favorable call. Remember that, the rake on a $200 pot is usually the same as the rake on a $60 pot.When I'm absolutely torn on a decision and have no information, I usually end up calling, so if I was in your situation, I'd probably go into the tank, and then call just before the time ran out. I still think though, that with as few as 10 hands on the opponent, I could get enough of a feel of their aggression to decided if they were likely to have AA or KK here. If they'd raised as much as twice in the last 10 hands, I'd definitely call here, and if they hadn't raised in 10 hands, then I'd have to fold.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

If he's pushing at you with AK it probably says something about your table image or maybe just how bad he is, one of the two--something to chew on.If you think he's a better player than you, call; you're likely not going to find a better spot to get your money in. If you think he's that awful, fold; find a better spot. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. If I KNOW he has AK then sure, I'm calling. If he shows KK I just kind of kick myself in my own nuts, then, don't I?

[Scott3705 0]

I think calling here is fine ONLY because it's shorthanded. I don't get all my chips in the middle with QQ preflop in a full game unless I've severely committed myself before the decision. Short handed, I think his range will include a few more midpairs than a lot of people are giving credit for. Although, against a reasonable opponent where I pin him for top few hands, I would fold this. But then again, I reasonable opponent probably doesn't make this move.

[petersun 0]

The thing a lot of people forget is that while it's assumed that AK vs. QQ is a "coinflip", in reality, the QQ has a 57/43 edge. In Harrington on Hold 'Em, he always talks about how a pair vs. AK is a 13 to 10 edge, and uses that as justification for folding AK occasionally.If we knew that our opponent had AK, then our edge on this hand = 199.3 * .57 - 99.15 = $14.45. That's hardly a small enough edge that it will be "eaten up by the rake". In fact, since a good player usually only makes about the same amount that they give to rake in profit, this is actually a wildly favorable call. Remember that, the rake on a $200 pot is usually the same as the rake on a $60 pot.When I'm absolutely torn on a decision and have no information, I usually end up calling, so if I was in your situation, I'd probably go into the tank, and then call just before the time ran out. I still think though, that with as few as 10 hands on the opponent, I could get enough of a feel of their aggression to decided if they were likely to have AA or KK here. If they'd raised as much as twice in the last 10 hands, I'd definitely call here, and if they hadn't raised in 10 hands, then I'd have to fold.

I agree with you that if I knew he had AK, I'd call because the edge is great enough. I pointed out in my post that if I had 56 percent I would do it. However, we have to factor in the over pairs and underpairs and the odds of those hands. Playing poker is often like investing in the stock market. Those people who favor calling in this case are okay with high volitility. The like having their bankroll flux a lot to win on the edges in the long run. If they are good players, they tend to win a lot more becase they are picking up on the small AND big edges. However, if they are poor players, they tend to tank a lot more. There are others who will only play if they have a larger margin of advantage. They tend to have smaller loses overall, but they also win less because they're not winning the additional small edge profit.As for me, I am mixed. In a cash game, I have made this call and I have folded, but each time I had a little more info on the table then we are given. In a short-handed tournament, you make this call most of the time.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Is that really a risk worth taking at this level?

Assuming you're practicing good BR management, yes. The call is +EV.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Assuming you're practicing good BR management, yes. The call is +EV assuming you know your opponent has AK or a smaller pair.

FYP

[BIG_L_RIP 0]

so much is stakes contingent, with different levels of thinking. At high stakes this is an auto call. AK is an auto push hand even for stacks in the many thousands.I'd call with QQ here. My first thought was AK. People at low stakes generally let you know they have AA or KK with a callable reraise.