farha vs. greenstein aa vs. kk preflop

[bobbywithani 0]

Jesus I hate general. Anyway there are 5 times that I can remeber where I thought I should maybe lay down KK pre-flop. I didn't. Twice I was up against AA, twice against AK and once againt QQ. Not that my small sample size really means anything, but to say that if I went with my "read" and folded KK sure I would not have lost to those two AA hands, but I would be losing a lot of money from when I didn't call against the other hands. I can't believe this is an argument.

[Actuary 3]

I think some are just trying to be pains in the ass.

[bfineman 0]

I’m sure that this will seem odd for being my first post, but I happen to disagree strongly with the majority opinion in this thread. I don’t expect to receive much respect here given that I’m a newbie (although I have been lurking forever), but I still wanted to share my thoughts.First of all, the two people most heavily defending the “Never fold KK preflop” are among those posters who I respect the most on this forum. From what I’ve seen, DD and Actuary are generally the voice of reason in an otherwise idiotic group of people on FCP. However, saying that you should never fold KK preflop in a NLHE cash game is a blanket statement that removes all possibility of extreme cases. For instance…Between July and December of ’05, I played 573.5 hours of $2-$5 NLHE at the Wynn. Essentially, I was there five days a week playing in the same game, along with a few other people that had the same “work schedule.” Since we all earned an income from this particular game, it’s safe to say that we were/are all good players. As a result, it was fairly difficult to make moves on each other, because we were all so familiar with each others’ game. Over those 573.5 hours, I saw many times where one of us (myself included) would lay down kings preflop. Believe it or not, it was the right play most of the time. To consistently beat the game we were playing in, it was necessary to maintain a TAG style over the long run. And when two players you know very well for this come at you with raises, reraises, and all in bets, there is no doubting what they have.A good counter-argument to my point would be to say that if we knew each other so well, we weren’t doing a good enough job of mixing in bluffs to keep our game fresh and unpredictable. However, we all acknowledged that the money we would make in the long run would be from tourists and weak locals (keep in mind this is $2-$5, not higher), so we respectfully stayed off each other’s toes and played a very predictable, yet profitable game. I forget where the quote was from, but something to the extent of… “We weren’t playing with each other, but we weren’t playing against each other” sums up my point pretty well.I know that Harrington says something to the effect of “I’m not good enough to fold kings preflop, and neither are you,” but I think that statement is only applicable to a tournament situation. Without a doubt, there are plenty of scenarios where folding kings preflop is a +EV situation, and saying that you should never do it in an NLHE ring game will cost you money in the long run.

[Actuary 3]

bfineman,after that nice intro, I hardly feel like flaming.I would suggest re-raisng all in much more often in your game since it's full of weak tighties.

[bobbywithani 0]

Actuary I hate how you constantly change your avatar, every time I look for your advice in the micros I miss it the first couple of times cause this week you decided to put a drunk monkey playing tennis as your avatar, or whatever. Keep the Office Space one.

[Actuary 3]

Actuary I hate how you constantly change your avatar, every time I look for your advice in the micros I miss it the first couple of times cause this week you decided to put a drunk monkey playing tennis as your avatar, or whatever. Keep the Office Space one.

everyone has their favorite!some are more work friendly.I"m blushing to think you look for my advice.Look for Screeches.Or Smash, well, that is look for Smash, he seems to have disappeared.

[bfineman 0]

bfineman,after that nice intro, I hardly feel like flaming.I would suggest re-raisng all in much more often in your game since it's full of weak tighties.

The Wynn's $2-$5 game has no cap, which means that the majority of the regular players players sit there with very deep stacks. Going all in as a tool to bully weak tight players will work most of the time, but when it doesn't, you might find yourself wondering why you risked $1,500 to win a $100 pot.Weak tight would describe a handful of the regulars (primarily older, retired men playing for an extra few thousand a year), but pushing as a bluff is not a +EV move. I've seen upstart players who think they can bully a table all day pick up a handful of small pots early, then go broke when they inevietably run into a big hand.

[Actuary 3]

ok.well, I'm not qualified to argue against this specific scenario.Can I say this: Anyone who can design/involved in a long term game with same opponents who is so certain that he is against AA, can make that laydown on his own time. But bringing these very specific situations into here has really no use, except to try to prove that the "never" comment was to extreme. Staying within a 99.99994% range of scenarios, folding KK preflop is just bad.oh, and welcome!

[Actuary 3]

ok.well, I'm not qualified to argue against this specific scenario.Can I say this: Anyone who can design/involved in a long term game with same opponents who is so certain that he is against AA, can make that laydown on his own time. But bringing these very specific situations into here has really no use, except to try to prove that the "never" comment was to extreme. Staying within a 99.99994% range of scenarios, folding KK preflop is just bad.oh, and welcome!

[bfineman 0]

But bringing these very specific situations into here has really no use, except to try to prove that the "never" comment was to extreme. Staying within a 99.99994% range of scenarios, folding KK preflop is just bad.

I agree 99%. Just making my point that folding kings preflop does have a place, and those who say "Don't fold KK preflop ever," will hurt themselves in the long run.As for the very specific situation having no use, I highly doubt that I'm the only one here who played with a few of the same people on a regular basis...

[Actuary 3]

As for the very specific situation having no use, I highly doubt that I'm the only one here who played with a few of the same people on a regular basis...

you know what i meant.this is a public forum so giving a specifc circumstance helps no one.Sure others may agree and be in same cicumstance. And they will make their decisions accordingly.I't like coming here and saying you saw his cards and knew it was AA and so sometimes folding is ok.ahhhh.. I'm bored.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Bfineman, Thanks for the compliments--much appreciated, and feel free to stay around awhile, there's *some* decent stuff around here.I think the situation you're describing is probably the most optimal situation to lay KK down preflop. No cap means exceptionally deep stacks, hundreds of hours with the same players and a very good read for their tendencies. The absence of a cap on the buy in would be the greatest of those issues, though, in my opinion(BTW, is it one of those 70% games? 70 percent of Chipleader is the max buy in, or just no max whatsoever?).I think, though, that the situation you're describing, it makes more sense, just to stay out of each other's way. That is to say, that your expected value from playing big hands/large pots against those regulars, is how do I say, less positive? It's not a negative expected value to get it all in preflop with KK here, but, I think it's less positive, if that makes sense.Since your money is made from beating up on tourists, drunks and gamblers--and not by making marginal/tough calls/pushes with deep stacks, it'd stand to reason that it *may* be acceptable to lay KK down from time to time. It's the same premise that I wouldn't call an all in with top two against an unknown in an unraised pot a good deal of the time--what's the value in it? I can pick a better spot. I don't think your issue is related to poker theory, necessarily, so much as it is hard earned income.That's not to say that I would lay KK down preflop necessarily in the situation you described, but, if I were, it would have to be in a situation like that. I think the uncapped buy in really plays a large factor in that though--to the extent that it's a bit difficult to effectively manage a bankroll on those types of games. Thanks though.Good luck.

[iggymcfly 0]

I stopped reading here. Why the hell would you sit at a 1/2 NL game with $20,000? Would anyone at the table have you covered? If not, then what does it matter if you run into AA when you have KK? Is $20,000 your entire bankroll? If so, why the hell are you sitting at a table with it?

I was referencing a comment earlier where DrawingDeadinDM was saying that he'd call with KK in a similar situation. Against a tight enough player, I think 400 or 500 big blinds would be plenty to make laying down KK to a jam on the fourth raise optimal.As for the QQ hand I posted, he didn't just have a pair of queens, he had the second-high set with no straight or flush out which is actually a more powerful hand than KK is preflop. "Don't fold a set" (w/o straight or flush possibilites) is just as vaild of a rule as "don't fold KK".The reason I used a tournament situation is that with the exception of the occasional DN blog, we don't see pros' hand histories from NL cash games. He made the play because he thought a call was -chip EV, and I was just pointing out that trusting your read can be good even if you have a huge hand.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I was referencing a comment earlier where DrawingDeadinDM was saying that he'd call with KK in a similar situation. Against a tight enough player, I think 400 or 500 big blinds would be plenty to make laying down KK to a jam on the fourth raise optimal.

My understanding was that you had worked a typical 1/2 Buy in up to 20k--at which point, no, I wouldn't hesitate to push. Uncapped buyins are completely different. People--moreso live--don't think of it as "500 big blinds." They think of it as "500 dollars" or usually even from a bankroll standpoint.

As for the QQ hand I posted, he didn't just have a pair of queens, he had the second-high set with no straight or flush out which is actually a more powerful hand than KK is preflop. "Don't fold a set" (w/o straight or flush possibilites) is just as vaild of a rule as "don't fold KK".

Wrong.He had the third nuts. Go back and look.

The reason I used a tournament situation is that with the exception of the occasional DN blog, we don't see pros' hand histories from NL cash games. He made the play because he thought a call was -chip EV, and I was just pointing out that trusting your read can be good even if you have a huge hand.

Watch online games. 100/200 on Prima, 25/50, 50/100 on FT--even the 10/20 and 5/10. People make these moves with much less than AA all the time.

[Thriceknurd 0]

There is only one person good enough to lay down KK in a cash game and do so accurately enough to save money.Chuck Norris

Everything Chuck does is +EV 8)

[bfineman 0]

(BTW, is it one of those 70% games? 70 percent of Chipleader is the max buy in, or just no max whatsoever?).

The Wynn is one of the few casinos in Vegas that does not have any kind of cap on their $2-$5 NLHE game. Actually, I've never even heard of a 70% rule in any of the poker rooms that I've visited...

[Loismustdie 0]

DrawingDeadinDM, I usually respect your views on NL Hold 'Em a lot and I consider you one of the very best posters on this forum. However, you're being an assh0le here and you're making statements that make no sense. --Cut--Therefore, repeatedly jamming your stupid rule in everyone's face like it was handed down to you from God is petty and counterproductive.

Good post.You're probably right. Under the most absurd and contrived circumstances I might be persuaded to lay down KK preflop--but I deal in reality. I can think of NO realistic situation that would arrive in a cash game that would lead me to lay down KK preflop.As for me being an asshole and counter productive--that's just fucking tough. I think the first 502 times we've discussed this exact same fucking topic I had the patience to deal with it in a rather patient tone--the next 243 times though, it gets old. I can't hardly remember the last decent discussion that went on in this forum--and this certainly wasn't the thread that was going to have that happen. I'm sorry if my patience with this forum is now more quickly growing worn and ragged with the complete idiocy that's taken a choke hold on it. If you want to talk poker theory, we'll talk poker theory. If you want to talk about some convoluded state of affairs that would lead to me laying down KK preflop--then I'm sorry; I don't have the patience.The fact that I said, "Don't fold it in a cash game," and then people threw all these tourney related ideas at me--that tells me that people as a whole in this forum can't not have an effective and decent discussion/debate on the virtues of folding this preflop--they don't even understand the context in which the thread was created.I think I've added a lot to this forum in the past and for it to be in the state it is, is kind of disgusting and disheartening to me. So, again, sorry I don't have the patience to sit here and explain my viewpoint thoroughly for the umpteenth censored time. This forum is choking on it's feel-good, hand-holding kumbyah nature and I don't feel the need to be a part of that--same reason Smash left. I can't tell someone they're way off base without being called an asshole.Anyway, good post. See ya on the flip side.

I would never fold it in an ONLINE cash game. Depending on the player and any reads I may have LIVE, things change. Online, however, it is all just the math and sufficient bankroll and for the most part I rarely actually have some sort of quote on quote read. If you are looking for a reason to fold K-K preflop though maybe poker is not for you. DD and Kowboy are right on this one.

[3A 0]

I'm done with this argument.You guys really don't understand the purpose of having a bankroll, which would make wanting to save one buyin completely worthless.You guys also don't understand, like both Koop and I have said, that if someone knows they can get you to lay down KK, they will play 99, TT, JJ, QQ, 85o and like it's Aces.But, really, keep folding Kings preflop. You'll save that buy in--and you won't double it up the other 21 times, either.I'd be amazed that anyone who just happened to stumble onto this place still takes this forum seriously after reading this thread.

First off I would like to say I have folded KK 2 times preflop and I was shown both times AA, due to my read, how long I've played with the same guys over the years, I did not show my KK. I laughed it off and said oops bad time to make a play.As above DD you said you would double up the other 21 times, that would be such a wonderous thing if the best hand held up that much, but it simply isn't true. I respect how you think of the situation and against people you clearly don't have the time invested to really know how they play and know they have AA, under those circumstances KK will never be folded by me.Back to 21 out of 22 times ect, even being ahead 82% of the time really that is winning 18 of those times. Lemme whip out the calculator 22 times 82% = 18.04 of those you win, which is good. This point is not to disprove that you should win way more then not with those type of odds, I just believe that when people misstype or get excited over a point and belittle them, it seems so very hypocritical to me.As for me I will continue to read your posts and many of the other people I respect information from on this site, however and maybe it's just me I believe that you should be making your point and not nit picking about the little stuff. WE GET IT, NEVER FOLD KK PREFLOP!If people don't want to believe you, why would you tell them differently anyways if you get to the point where you are calling people out saying I wish you played at my table. If you want to be heard then cool, I really feel your repeated opinion on the same subject over this thread has become redundent. I have only posted a few times with valuable information and I will continue to do so.To reiterate my feelings:A) Don't fold KK preflop in a cash gameB) Quit posting the same thing over and over again (it feels like your trying to get your post count up)C) KK will still win only 82% of any random hands so yu will win 18 of 22

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

--Cut to save space--To reiterate my feelings:A) Don't fold KK preflop in a cash gameB) Quit posting the same thing over and over again (it feels like your trying to get your post count up)C) KK will still win only 82% of any random hands so yu will win 18 of 22

While I appreciate your sentiment--please read the rest of the thread before responding. While I said I was done there, I was dumb enough to come back and explain a bit more thoroughly, several times.Thanks.Good post.

[KTW 0]

It's idiots like you that make me want to strangle kittens.

:evil: :shock: :evil:

[Lavitz 0]

So you run into pocket aces about once in every 22 times when you're dealt KK? Those are pretty good odds but what I want to know is during those 21 other times when you've got the dominate hand, how many times are people raising and reraising and coming over the top of you? Not many, if any.I'd say that when you've got KK those other 21 times, no TAG is raising and reraising you without AA for the most part. I've never laid it down myself but I've had times where I've had such a dominate read on a TAG that I would know to lay it down if that situation arose. Saying to never lay it down is closed minded and ignorant. I know most professionals dont advocate laying it down but some do, and have done it successfully. So I guess anyone from this forum who is saying it's always wrong must be seeing some perspective these certain pros are not. Perhaps noone in this forum is talented enough to be laying it down but to say there arent pros out there who can is wrong.

[Guest]

The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll.

you put yourself in a bad spot by sitting with that much money at once. You should never be sitting with 25% of your bankroll at once, this is terrible

It was a tournament, about a year ago, which I ended up taking down by getting away from it.I don't think you're giving me enough credit over here.

Shut up already and show us your cans.

[PotDragon 0]

This whole thread just shows why the casinos started putting a cap on their NL games. It's so people can "never lay down kings pre flop" and still have any bankroll left to play with. :think: DD...how much time have you spent playing live ? The whole story about the game at The Wynn is not an isolated instance. I play with the same people all the time and guess what ? We are paying our bills off of tourists, not each other either too. :shock: :doh: If you don't know that...look for the locals...and WATCH THE PLAY...you will donate too.As you progress in poker, you will find very few absolutes. One hand is simply one hand in a cash game.Would you have been able to lay down the pair of 10's that DN did on that same show ? Over pair to the board ? You better be able too if you want to have cell phone service and electricity.Online...WTF ? I lose my stack with the Kings. Shrug.

[Ouch-8s 4]

I'm not good enough to lay it down.I am good enough to push all in after a raise with KK, only to lose it all to AA. And then on the very next hand, push it all in after a raise from the same player with KK, only to lose it all again to AA.Then you break your keyboard, throw your mouse, kick the desk, and look forward to pushing it all in again with KK next time.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

DD...how much time have you spent playing live ? The whole story about the game at The Wynn is not an isolated instance. I play with the same people all the time and guess what ? We are paying our bills off of tourists, not each other either too. :shock: :doh: If you don't know that...look for the locals...and WATCH THE PLAY...you will donate too.

Only..eh..18 days shy of 4 years in casinos--at least two sessions a week, every week, and often times 20-50 hour sessions and as high as 100 hours in one week. I get what you're saying--and I suppose that's why I said it was the most valid argument for laying KK down preflop. But, I can almost guarantee you, that if I found out you were willing to lay down KK to me, I'd come over the top a lot more often preflop and I wouldn't feel as uncomfortable about pushing with say, QQ--and on a capped buy in, within my bankroll--it'd have to be a pretty amazing set of circumstances for me.

Would you have been able to lay down the pair of 10's that DN did on that same show ? Over pair to the board ? You better be able too if you want to have cell phone service and electricity.

I've layed down overpairs quite a few times--not real sure that's the same, but I get your point.

Online...WTF ? I lose my stack with the Kings.

Agreed.And I think I got a bit stubborn with it. But, for all intents and purposes, for 99.5% of the people who read this thread, it is never really right for them to lay down KK preflop. Period. /shrug.Good post though.There, I said it. Ya happy?