steal attempt gone bad?

[copernicus 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxMP2 (t3065)CO (t2710)Button (t2895)SB (t9690)BB (t890)UTG (t2890)UTG+1 (t3295)Copernicus (t6980)Preflop: Copernicus is MP1 with T:heart:, 8:heart:. 2 folds, Copernicus calls t600.Steal attempt caught, but I think Ive got odds to call.Flop: (t2325) 8:spade:, 2:club:, 7:diamond: (2 players)Copernicus checks, Button bets t750, Button calls t1095 (All-In).I read him for 2 overcards and push. Anyone love or hate this line?

[Dirtydutch 8]

I like the play, if you've got a real read. He doesn't have enough chips, anyway.[Edit] I'd rather lead the flop.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

No problem with it here.

[copernicus 0]

I like the play, if you've got a real read. He doesn't have enough chips, anyway.[Edit] I'd  rather lead the flop.

It was a "check for information" which gave me the read that he had overcards. His weak bet in the face of my weakness and with connected cards on board screamed of a probe with a hand that he wasnt all that confident in, or he had a straight draw himself. Either way I thought a big bet would force him out.If my pair were stronger I would have called and let him bet into me again on the turn, but I was concerned there were too many overcards that would give me trouble the rest of the hand, so I tried to take it down right there.Erick Lindgren talks about similar hands as calling for checking (and he sees a lot of them small-balling). If you bet you will drive out worse hands and get raised by better hands. If you let them bet for you then you can pick up a lot of small-medium pots from worse hands, and can still fold to big bets.

[blakheart 3]

I like the play particularly for table image. Regardless of the outcome, you are going to be seen as one scary dude. You put a lot of chips in there with 10 8 prior to getting a pair. If the table is paying attention (always a question) they will think twice about stealing from you.I agree with your read, a big pair checks behind you here hoping you catch up. I would only be worried about a middle pair, jacks or 9s. Those are too unlikely to seriously consider.

[timwakefield 68]

I like your play on the flop, but I think I fold preflop to his raise. It's not necessarily correct regarding the odds, but I find that if I try to steal and get small-raised, I am better off folding. Even though you are getting nearly 3/1 on this pot (by my quick math), I think it's better to save the chips. Too often I will call the mini-raise, hit some of the flop, and lose even more chips to their legit hand. More often than that, of course, I simply fold on the flop to his continuation bet. That is just me though, and I am perhaps too conservative with weak cards. Also, people often minimum-reraise with AA and KK, and you're certainly not getting implied odds to call THAT. If you had say 10k chips here, then I think it is a good play, and worth the risk in order to continue to build a big stack. Blackheart: I agree with you about the table image, but it's not worth half his chps.P.S. copernicus read my post http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...9581&highlight=

[copernicus 0]

I like your play on the flop, but I think I fold preflop to his raise.  It's not necessarily correct regarding the odds, but I find that if I try to steal and get small-raised, I am better off folding.  Even though you are getting nearly 3/1 on this pot (by my quick math), I think it's better to save the chips.  Too often I will call the mini-raise, hit some of the flop, and lose even more chips to their legit hand.  More often than that, of course, I simply fold on the flop to his continuation bet.  That is just me though, and I am perhaps too conservative with weak cards.  Also, people often minimum-reraise with AA and KK, and you're certainly not getting implied odds to call THAT.  If you had say 10k chips here, then I think it is a good play, and worth the risk in order to continue to build a big stack.    Blackheart: I agree with you about the table image, but it's not worth half his chps.P.S.  copernicus   read my post http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...9581&highlight=

Congrats on the 2d. The first time I waded my way through a field that large was very satisfying.I dont disagree with anything you said above. I considered folding to the re-raise pre-flop but two things led me to call. First the odds at nearly 3:1 were very hard to turn down, and also this was a 180 SnG, and nearly 10k in chips with about 80 to go is a very solid position with a lot of flexibility to make the final table. Folding pre-flop drops me to 6500, above average, and calling the raise and folding on the flop drops me to 5900, still above average.I dont find min-raises to be that strong an indicator of AA and KK any longer. Maybe its just my perception but with small ball becoming understood a bit more the range of raises seems to have widened considerably beyond 3x, 3x, 3x, 3.5x, 3x, lol.

[timwakefield 68]

I like your play on the flop, but I think I fold preflop to his raise.  It's not necessarily correct regarding the odds, but I find that if I try to steal and get small-raised, I am better off folding.  Even though you are getting nearly 3/1 on this pot (by my quick math), I think it's better to save the chips.  Too often I will call the mini-raise, hit some of the flop, and lose even more chips to their legit hand.  More often than that, of course, I simply fold on the flop to his continuation bet.  That is just me though, and I am perhaps too conservative with weak cards.  Also, people often minimum-reraise with AA and KK, and you're certainly not getting implied odds to call THAT.  If you had say 10k chips here, then I think it is a good play, and worth the risk in order to continue to build a big stack.    Blackheart: I agree with you about the table image, but it's not worth half his chps.P.S.  copernicus   read my post http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...9581&highlight=

Congrats on the 2d. The first time I waded my way through a field that large was very satisfying.I dont disagree with anything you said above. I considered folding to the re-raise pre-flop but two things led me to call. First the odds at nearly 3:1 were very hard to turn down, and also this was a 180 SnG, and nearly 10k in chips with about 80 to go is a very solid position with a lot of flexibility to make the final table. Folding pre-flop drops me to 6500, above average, and calling the raise and folding on the flop drops me to 5900, still above average.I dont find min-raises to be that strong an indicator of AA and KK any longer. Maybe its just my perception but with small ball becoming understood a bit more the range of raises seems to have widened considerably beyond 3x, 3x, 3x, 3.5x, 3x, lol.

Fair enough. Good point about the 6500 vs 5900...I would be very careful playing with less than 2 pr on the flop though, with rags vs re-raise.BTW, I took down FIRST even though I got paid slightly less than the guy who took 2nd. My first first! yayCheck out this deal: he has approx. 1.7 mil chips, I have approx .85 mil chips. Payouts are $1547 and $916. I make an offer, he thinks about it awhile, talks about it, says that I shouldn't try to swindle him, but eventually agrees without making a counter-offer. He takes $1294 and I take $1120, and $50 goes to the winner. I am getting the better end of this, no?

[copernicus 0]

BTW, I took down FIRST even though I got paid slightly less than the guy who took 2nd.  My first first! yayCheck out this deal:  he has approx. 1.7 mil chips, I have approx .85 mil chips.  Payouts are $1547 and $916.   I make an offer, he thinks about it awhile, talks about it, says that I shouldn't try to swindle him, but eventually agrees without making a counter-offer.  He takes $1294 and I take $1120, and $50 goes to the winner.  I am getting the better end of this, no?

Only very slightly, and its very close to the deal that PokerStars would calculate as the fair settlement.You are each guaranteed 916 so all that is in play is 1547-916 or 631,minus the $50 you left in play, so it would be 581 times 1/3 (your share of the total chips) plus 916 = 1110 is your share, plus the $50 which you have 1/3 chance of winning. You got the best of it by $10 out of $1100...not exactly a killing, especially since you were obviously the better player :twisted:

[timwakefield 68]

BTW, I took down FIRST even though I got paid slightly less than the guy who took 2nd.  My first first! yayCheck out this deal:  he has approx. 1.7 mil chips, I have approx .85 mil chips.  Payouts are $1547 and $916.   I make an offer, he thinks about it awhile, talks about it, says that I shouldn't try to swindle him, but eventually agrees without making a counter-offer.  He takes $1294 and I take $1120, and $50 goes to the winner.  I am getting the better end of this, no?

Only very slightly, and its very close to the deal that PokerStars would calculate as the fair settlement.You are each guaranteed 916 so all that is in play is 1547-916 or 631,minus the $50 you left in play, so it would be 581 times 1/3 (your share of the total chips) plus 916 = 1110 is your share, plus the $50 which you have 1/3 chance of winning. You got the best of it by $10 out of $1100...not exactly a killing, especially since you were obviously the better player :twisted:

Haha, not sure I was obviously the better player, but thanks. All I know is if somebody offered me that deal with a 2-1 chiplead, I'd say screw you let's play it.BTW, do you play on Stars? SN?

[therrinn 0]

I'm actually not a fan of how you played this hand. Firstly, while I of coure don't know what sort of players were behind the stacks and what sort of image you have (pretty solid, I assume), but the stacks on the button and in the blinds were exactly not what sort of stacks you wanted to have there on a steal attempt. I don't like calling the reraise. 1) You're out of position, with the momentum in his hands. 2) Its a reraise. I generally take reraises in stars tourneys very very seriously.3) You know you have to connect on the flop, but you have no idea how well you have to connect. With the lack of chips in front of villain, you have no way of figuring out if a marginal hand will be good. When the flop came and he raised and you pushed, good job, go with your read. I just think it would have been better to avoid this marginal situation in the first place, especially against a reraise that screams strength.

[copernicus 0]

BTW, do you play on Stars?  SN?

Mostly Stars lately, yes. TheDominator

[choic 0]

Sorry, I don't like the play.Pushing with a pair of eights is too aggressive. I'd check raise a third of my stack (raise to 2k) and try and take the pot down.Once he calls or re-raises I'm done.He popped you preflop. What does he have? You say you put him on overcards? You are thinking AK right? What else right? You think he'd re-pop you with AQ KQ or even AJ??? Most players would smooth call with these hands. (Good players)Having said that, now look at other hands he might re-pop with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT. Your push with your tournament on the line with top pair 10 kicker will only drive out a bluff. He showed strength preflop and on the flop. I'd be more cautious. I know most players think that you have to be aggressive to win but selective aggressiveness is even more important.

[SLEEPYCHIEF 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxMP2 (t3065)CO (t2710)Button (t2895)SB (t9690)BB (t890)UTG (t2890)UTG+1 (t3295)Copernicus (t6980)Preflop: Copernicus is MP1 with T:heart:, 8:heart:.    2 folds, Copernicus calls t600.Steal attempt caught, but I think Ive  got odds to call.Flop: (t2325) 8:spade:, 2:club:, 7:diamond: (2 players)Copernicus checks, Button bets t750, Button calls t1095 (All-In).I read him for 2 overcards and push.  Anyone love or hate this line?

That is a horrible play I'm sorry. The guy simply does not have enough chips for you to try to hit a lucky flop. He has put a little over 1/3 of his stack in preflop signaling he's willing to put the rest in on the flop. I think your best play if your attention is stealing, is to make the third reraise preflop. You put no pressure on him at all duirng the hand!!! You check raise the flop, but he has already put most of his chips in the middle, what do you expect him to fold?

[copernicus 0]

Sorry, I don't like the play.Pushing with a pair of eights is too aggressive.  I'd check raise a third of my stack (raise to 2k) and try and take the pot down.Once he calls or re-raises I'm done.He popped you preflop.  What does he have?  You say you put him on overcards?  You are thinking AK right?  What else right?  You think he'd re-pop you with AQ KQ or even AJ???  Most players would smooth call with these hands.  (Good players)  Having said that, now look at other hands he might re-pop with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT.  Your push with your tournament on the line with top pair 10 kicker will only drive out a bluff.  He showed strength preflop and on the flop.  I'd be more cautious.  I know most players think that you have to be aggressive to win but selective aggressiveness is even more important.

He didnt have a chance to re-raise, I just called his raise preflop. His weak bet on the rag flop is much more indicative of overcards probing than of overpairs, which will bet more for value and to protect against draws.I will never put a third of my stack in without pushing, unless Im trapping. I dont mind a call here, but would prefer to take it down on the flop.

[copernicus 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxMP2 (t3065)CO (t2710)Button (t2895)SB (t9690)BB (t890)UTG (t2890)UTG+1 (t3295)Copernicus (t6980)Preflop: Copernicus is MP1 with T:heart:, 8:heart:.    2 folds, Copernicus calls t600.Steal attempt caught, but I think Ive  got odds to call.Flop: (t2325) 8:spade:, 2:club:, 7:diamond: (2 players)Copernicus checks, Button bets t750, Button calls t1095 (All-In).I read him for 2 overcards and push.  Anyone love or hate this line?

That is a horrible play I'm sorry. The guy simply does not have enough chips for you to try to hit a lucky flop. He has put a little over 1/3 of his stack in preflop signaling he's willing to put the rest in on the flop. I think your best play if your attention is stealing, is to make the third reraise preflop. You put no pressure on him at all duirng the hand!!! You check raise the flop, but he has already put most of his chips in the middle, what do you expect him to fold?

I dont mind if he calls given my read. I also disagree with reraising pre-flop. I'm not the one committed to this hand, and can get away from it without a flop, but im getting nearly 3:1 to see the flop.

[copernicus 0]

This is still getting some reaction, and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats.

[therrinn 0]

This is still getting some reaction' date=' and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats. Nice read. I don't like the way he played his hand at all. If he was going to call an all in check raise on the flop, he should've just pushed - the pot was plenty big enough and he had to be hoping to take it down there. Would you have called an all in?

[copernicus 0]

This is still getting some reaction' date=' and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats. Nice read. I don't like the way he played his hand at all. If he was going to call an all in check raise on the flop, he should've just pushed - the pot was plenty big enough and he had to be hoping to take it down there. Would you have called an all in? I'm not sure what I do in the heat of battle, but probably fold.

[timwakefield 68]

This is still getting some reaction' date=' and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats. Nice read. I don't like the way he played his hand at all. If he was going to call an all in check raise on the flop, he should've just pushed - the pot was plenty big enough and he had to be hoping to take it down there. Would you have called an all in? I'm not sure what I do in the heat of battle, but probably fold.I don't think we need to whisper anymore. His mistake was not moving in preflop.

[copernicus 0]

This is still getting some reaction' date=' and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats. Nice read. I don't like the way he played his hand at all. If he was going to call an all in check raise on the flop, he should've just pushed - the pot was plenty big enough and he had to be hoping to take it down there. Would you have called an all in? I'm not sure what I do in the heat of battle, but probably fold.I don't think we need to whisper anymore. His mistake was not moving in preflop.

I wouldnt push there. Hes got position, no reason to submit to a race without seeing the flop, and theres always AK looming out there.

[timwakefield 68]

This is still getting some reaction' date=' and Im not surprised its mixed. The plays were all close decisions imo. I was only mildly surprised and very pleased to see him call with AQ. My pair held up, and set me up for a run to the money which petered out with a couple of tough beats. Nice read. I don't like the way he played his hand at all. If he was going to call an all in check raise on the flop, he should've just pushed - the pot was plenty big enough and he had to be hoping to take it down there. Would you have called an all in? I'm not sure what I do in the heat of battle, but probably fold.I don't think we need to whisper anymore. His mistake was not moving in preflop.Copernicus wrote:I wouldnt push there. Hes got position, no reason to submit to a race without seeing the flop, and theres always AK looming out there.

Ok, I guess it's debatable...but I think he has to raise more than he did unless he wants you to call with anything. I guess I meant that the only way he could have won the hand was to move preflop.