tt in the big blind

[custom36 5]

No readsPartyPoker 5/10 Limit Hold'em (9 handed)Hero is BB with TTMP1 calls, fold to hero, hero checksFlop (2.5 SB): 4s-8s-4dHero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 callsTurn (5.25 BB): KhHero bets, MP1 raises, hero foldsLet's hear it. What do you do different and why?Experience has me thinking he has two over cards and a flush draw or A4. While I don't have any reads on this specific player, I can put him on hand ranges based on previous hands I've played at this level.AK-JT, AA-55, A8, A4

[Bubba83 0]

Would have liked a raise preflop, otherwise I thought it was okay..

[custom36 5]

Would have liked a raise preflop, otherwise I thought it was okay..

Why?

[AlphaOmega 0]

Why no raise pre-flop?Why check the flop?I like the b/f on the turn. I think an 8 would slow down in that situation, or most worse hands than yours for that matter, so it appears that you are beat once MP raises. I might call down for curiosity or information (with the added bonus of possibly having the best hand) to get a better read on MP however.

[AlphaOmega 0]

Would have liked a raise preflop, otherwise I thought it was okay..

Why?

Value.

[custom36 5]

Why no raise pre-flop?Why check the flop?

I'm not raising preflop because it disguises my hand and I don't like to put extra bets in like this OOP with no read and a vulnerable hand. If I have JJ+, I'm raising, but I don't like raising TT here. Villain knows that I'm only raising with good hands and if I check, I can have absolutely anything.Weak leading the flop is dumb. If he has two overcards, he's likely folding or he MAY peel one off. I'm ahead most of the time on this flop and I'm going for the check/raise because I'm looking to get more bets out of overcards. If he only wants to peel one, we're going to make sure he pays the maximum for it.

[AlphaOmega 0]

Was your plan to just c/r a favorable flop? I can see from a math standpoint how that could work out if you wanted to just call pre-flop.If we just call pre-flop and check the flop, most villains will auto-bet, in which we can c/r and they will most of the time call with just overs.That puts 6 SB in the pot instead of 4SB.But:it has greater risk, we could miss immediate value from a flush draw or just overs that decide to just check behind on the flop.Assuming he checks behind, we will likely have reverse implied odds because you will probably be forced to call down when a bad card hits the turn, given how passively you played the hand.Villain might also raise your lead with a pair of 8's, in which case we can get 6SB in on the flop instead of just 4SB with a c/r.I think it's better to just lead.

[zimmer4141 0]

I'm raising preflop. This gives us the lead, and forces our opponent to make a hand to play back at us. The bet/fold is the right play on the turn IMO given how the hand has played out. I'm also considering the possibility that this guy is some maniac, and call down after the 3-bet. It's not a play I would use often, but think it MIGHT be right in this situation.

[princeof56k 0]

Although I think you should be probably be raising preflop, I dont think its huge error.On th flop play... It's hard to tell what either of you have since you both limped preflop. Both of you could have anything. So after you check/raise him (which I think is good play), he 3bets you. At this point I would call down. I dont think an 8 or a flush draw plays its that strong since he runs the risk of being capped by you if you have a 4. After all, you're in the BB and could have any 2 random cards. I would most likely think you had a 4.

[custom36 5]

I'm pretty sure Zimmer and I are agreeing to disagree on the preflop play. Frankly, we're both stubborn as hell.In regards to check/calling down, I don't like that play, especially after the K comes out on the turn. I would've considered it on a low turn (non-spade, lower than a T, maybe a J). I just think with him raising this turn, there isn't much that he's raising with that I can beat other than a bluff. I think calling down after that turn is -EV.Weak leading is just that....weak. I don't see any good argument for doing this.Does anyone think my flop cap is spewing?Just so you guys don't get the wrong idea, I'm not shooting down your ideas (except weak leading...I AM saying that's wrong). I'm trying to get discussion out of this from different perspectives. I believe there's a lot of merit to raising preflop and there's merit to calling down. I'd just like to hear the arguments.

[zimmer4141 0]

The more I think about it, I like calling down after the 3-bet. We beat flush draws, 8s, and lower pocket pairs. Plus, we get information when we call down, and it only costs us 1SB more than cap/bet/fold.

[kouta43 0]

I have to agree with a preflop raise here with 10 10. even OOP. 10's are a very strong preflop hand, but vulnerable post flop especially out of position. Wouldnt all this mean a smooth call is better? NO!Believe it or not, by raising here you are actually going to make your post flop play easier alot of the time. Lets see what i mean: Preflop MP calls, you raise, MP calls.Flop: you lead out, he raises, you 3 bet, now he either caps or calls... you get more information about his hand because he knows more about your hand, so he can react with a fuller set of information.On a seperate topic, this is a good example of where LHE and NL differ- in LHE it is about making it expensive (actually, too expensive) for your opponent to draw out on you, and making it correct mathematically to try and draw out on your opponents. Therefore, disguising, whilst still important is often very over rated in todays limit games, where so much of the thinking is about trapping your opponent to nail a big pot... a line of thinking which is much better suited to NL.I typed this up pretty quickly and im tired so im not sure how much sense it made...let me know.

[Guest Zach6668]

Good post Kouta.I'm raising this preflop in this case.

[jayboogie 0]

You'd raise this hand UTG right? I don't see why you wouldn't in the BB? You have an equity edge at the moment over a random limping hand, not sure why you don't want to push it while you're ahead.Using deception is pretty useless in this spot. On a flop like 9 3 7, if your opponent has a 9, he's paying you off the same whether you raised PF or not. If the flop comes out high cards, he's folding with no piece of it and you lose out on the bet you'd have gotten out of raising PF.

[kouta43 0]

Something else... i think 10 10 isnt strong enough a hand to get cute with here, it is far too vulnerable and there are heaps of ugly flops for it, i mean anything with an overcard doesnt exactly excite you.I much prefer a play like this with AA or KK, where you forgo a small bet to disguise a much stronger hand that is a big favourite to win against any other holding, and further, is almost certainly going to be ahead on the flop making a check raise a reasonable choice (obvious anomalie here is with KK on a A high board, in which case id prefer to lead out with KK and fold to a raise in a small pot)

[elaear 0]

don't be scared to play poker. raise preflop.

[AlphaOmega 0]

Why no raise pre-flop?Why check the flop?

I'm not raising preflop because it disguises my hand and I don't like to put extra bets in like this OOP with no read and a vulnerable hand. If I have JJ+' date=' I'm raising, but I don't like raising TT here. Villain knows that I'm only raising with good hands and if I check, I can have absolutely anything.The difference between pocket tens and JJ is very miniscule in this situation, so I'm not sure why you draw your line there. I think disguising your hand becomes more important when you have a read on your opponent. Against an unknown villain, I would prefer to play the hand the "standard" way unless future play indicates that deception could be useful. Weak leading the flop is dumb. If he has two overcards, he's likely folding or he MAY peel one off. I'm ahead most of the time on this flop and I'm going for the check/raise because I'm looking to get more bets out of overcards. If he only wants to peel one, we're going to make sure he pays the maximum for it.You give the villain the exact same pot odds if you raise pre-flop and lead the flop. Your line doesn't narrow down villain's hand range at all and just makes the hand harder to play than it needs to be. If you were worried about the difficulty of playing TT OOP, then why would you take a line that rendered you no information against an unknown villain? Villain's perceived range of our hand makes it easier for him to move us off the best hand in a variety of ways on a variety of flops. Villain could also fold a lot of hands on the flop that we could have gotten value from pre-flop.

[Bubba83 0]

I'm not raising preflop because it disguises my hand and I don't like to put extra bets in like this OOP with no read and a vulnerable hand. If I have JJ+, I'm raising, but I don't like raising TT here. Villain knows that I'm only raising with good hands and if I check, I can have absolutely anything.

Why disguise a hand as vulnerable as 10's? Also, I didn't like checking the flop, you obviously plan to check/raise but he didn't raise preflop, so many times a continuation bet is not coming since he just limped. It's a catastrophe when he checks behind and something like a Q comes on the turn.

[kdogg 0]

I would've check/called down after flop.

[Wingmaster05 0]

I would've check/called down after flop.

[AceJackOffS 0]

I don't mind the preflop play not raising is fine, but I believe that by not raising you need to lead at the flopbut the way you played it:Flop: when he caps the flop what are you putting him on?you are worried about 88, A4, AA,44, everything else you can beatTurn: K you lead, good lead but when he raises now what are you putting him on?If it was one of those four hands then you shouldn't have led, c/f is a better optionIMO unless you believe he has one of those four hands the best line would be.flop check raise capturn check raise or check callriver reevaluate if spade hitsI believe that there are too many hands that you beat to not see this all the way down, otherwise check fold the turn

[greatwhite 0]

The 2 things I would do differently here are raising preflop and calling down after his flop raise. He could have 2 overcards or a flush draw. Even if he has a set you can always catch a ten on the river.TY Wingmaster.

[Wingmaster05 0]

The 2 things I would do differently here are raising preflop and calling down after his flop raise. He could have 2 overcards or a flush draw. Even if he has a set you can always catch a ten on the river.

fyp

[pwoblo 0]

I think postflop was good, but it actually becomes harder when you don't raise pre.Imagine if the flop came KQ5. I bet this guy has A4 or the like, so you should take it down with a continuation bet if u raised pre.Also, you have to remember that limit holdem is all about taking every little tiny equity edge u can get. You are almost undoubtedly ahead her, so it behooves you to get more money in preflop. Also, taking the initiative even OOP is very good here. Assuming he has A4 here, wouldn't it be great to raise with hands like Ax or KT-KQ too. You will take down a lot of flops just through continuing preflop aggression.

[econ_tim 0]

interesting handhaven't read replies yetpreflop, i know some people will want to play differentlyi don't mind it muchraising gets you some sklansky bucks preflop, but it also makes the pot large, which helps the villain draw out to beat you when you flop goodthen the flop comes and good for you, you have an overpair. you put in a lot of bets, which is good if villain has something like A 9 , but bad if he has a better overpair. but he would have raised most overpair hands preflop, so is likely an overcard flush draw. some of these have 14 outs against you and are slight favorites while some are slight dogs, so i think capping is good.then a king comes on the turn. if villain has a flush draw, which i've already argued is quite likely, you must bet here. and he raises. wtf? how many hand could he possibly raise that you beat? not many. so i think this is well played.i know you've been busy modding, but you should post more hands.