JVick4 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I was recently in a trounament we were down to three handed. I had about 28K in chips and was in the BB, the SB had about 29K and the button had 8k in chips. With the blinds really high 1500-3000, the button moves all in for his last 8000. The SB contemplates and the finally says I have to call. I look down and i have 9 6 . There is already 19k in the pot, i am getting laid roughly 4-1 on my money, and i think if i have two live cards i am probably 3-1 dog, no worse then a 4-1 dog, so I call. My question is was this the right play? I really think that it was considering the circumstances and what not. I went on to bust the guy on the button and double in the process, giving me about a 70-1 chip lead going heads up and won the tournamnet on the next hand. I know hindsight is 20-20, but any opinions?By the way...Button - A 8 SB - 7 7 Flop - 6 6 3 Link to post Share on other sites
mk 11 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 if you care to actually talk about poker, head for the strategy forums. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I was recently in a trounament we were down to three handed. I had about 28K in chips and was in the BB, the SB had about 29K and the button had 8k in chips. With the blinds really high 1500-3000, the button moves all in for his last 8000. The SB contemplates and the finally says I have to call. I look down and i have 9 6 . There is already 19k in the pot, i am getting laid roughly 4-1 on my money, and i think if i have two live cards i am probably 3-1 dog, no worse then a 4-1 dog, so I call. My question is was this the right play? I really think that it was considering the circumstances and what not. I went on to bust the guy on the button and double in the process, giving me about a 70-1 chip lead going heads up and won the tournamnet on the next hand. I know hindsight is 20-20, but any opinions?By the way...Button - A 8 SB - 7 7 Flop - 6 6 3 DONK play.....Pot odds don't apply in that situation....check your M's......read HOH....and understand that dynamic....I hate your play in this instance. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 You doubled up? The other dude put all his money in against a side pot with A8?Where was this tournament? Link to post Share on other sites
aces ride 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 This is why i dont take this forum seriously. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Hey Alf...I've realized recently that I love PLO.Just thought you should know. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 This is why i dont take this forum seriously.Isn't this where you tell us about how much money you make at your job, how much money you make playing poker, and how great you are?I kid...but not really. Link to post Share on other sites
aces ride 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 easy buddy this sh it is just funny to me. i dont have air conditioning at my house and i live on bologna and cereal. I have to eat beans and drink ice water int he summer to keep the place cool. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Hey Alf...I've realized recently that I love PLO.Just thought you should know.What's not to love?Free Money is always nice. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 easy buddy this sh it is just funny to me. i dont have air conditioning at my house and i live on bologna and cereal. I have to eat beans and drink ice water int he summer to keep the place cool. hey...there's nothing wrong with bologna. i love that shit. Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 easy buddy this sh it is just funny to me. i dont have air conditioning at my house and i live on bologna and cereal. I have to eat beans and drink ice water int he summer to keep the place cool. hey...there's nothing wrong with bologna. i love that shit.I have a friend that only eats Oscar Meyer bologna because it si the best.....+1 Link to post Share on other sites
JVick4 0 Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 Alf,would you please elaborate, all help would be beneficial... Link to post Share on other sites
RyanT 0 Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 i have 9 6 .but they are suited. Link to post Share on other sites
silvergoose 0 Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 The SB had an overpair, which is presumably why he got all his money in with his trips.I dunno, I might call so as to give the two of us a better chance of knocking him out, with three left... Link to post Share on other sites
Jdr999 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Alf,would you please elaborate, all help would be beneficial...While I am not Alf, I can help out.What he is refering to is that you don't have enough chips to make this a EV+ call. You risk over 1/4 of your chips pre-flop on a bad hand with a raise, and a call, with out position. If you don't hit this flop hard enough, you likely check it down, or fold to a bet from the SB.Other outcomes: You get all-in on the flop, and the SB has a better hand than you, but the Button has a better hand then both of you. You go from possible heads-up with the SB (if they win the hand outright) to out in third.And if you fold, despite the pot odds, you still have 25K, which is much better than 2o K if you call and lose the hand.If you fold, and the button wins the hand, you have a slight chip lead.If you fold, and the SB wins the hand, you are heads-up, and move up in the $. Link to post Share on other sites
DB10-2 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 he's calling 5k into a 19k pot, right? so that's a bit worse than 4-1. there are few hands he could hold that make it a mathetmatically stupid call.so, what was his read? he doesn't really say that he had one, which worries me. he's playing a final table with the guy who moves in on a short stack and doesn't say or know or think anything about his likely holdings?this is important, because if he has two unpaired overs he's at worst a 2-1 dog and getting great odds to call. jvick, you have to have some idea of what the SB is capable of. what are the chances it's a stone bluff? what are the chances it's a hand like 77? did you stop to think about this at all?the bigger problem, as has been mentioned, is that you overcalled with a truly marginal hand during the endgame of a tournament. was it worth it to you to have two chances to knock the guy out instead of one? what were you planning to do if you got additional action after the flop but didn't make any sort of a hand? did you think about that before calling? were you willing to go out third on a hand like 96 suited if two hearts came on the flop and the SB moved in on you and you lost a side pot? what was your plan?my verdict is this: if you were sure the other player with chips left would check it down with you no matter what he held, it wasn't a bad call. if you could expect more action, you made a mistake by overcalling with such a marginal hand. overall, that you made this single decision in this single tournament situation isn't as important as why you made it, and from your post, i'm not sure you did enough thinking about why you were doing it and what your plan after the flop was going to be. keep that in mind for next time. Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 he's calling 5k into a 19k pot, right? so that's a bit worse than 4-1. there are few hands he could hold that make it a mathetmatically stupid call.so, what was his read? he doesn't really say that he had one, which worries me. he's playing a final table with the guy who moves in on a short stack and doesn't say or know or think anything about his likely holdings?this is important, because if he has two unpaired overs he's at worst a 2-1 dog and getting great odds to call. jvick, you have to have some idea of what the SB is capable of. what are the chances it's a stone bluff? what are the chances it's a hand like 77? did you stop to think about this at all?the bigger problem, as has been mentioned, is that you overcalled with a truly marginal hand during the endgame of a tournament. was it worth it to you to have two chances to knock the guy out instead of one? what were you planning to do if you got additional action after the flop but didn't make any sort of a hand? did you think about that before calling? were you willing to go out third on a hand like 96 suited?my verdict is this: if you were sure the other player with chips left would check it down with you no matter what he held, it wasn't a bad call. if you could expect more action, you made a mistake by overcalling with such a marginal hand. overall, that you made this single decision in this single tournament situation isn't as important as why you made it, and from your post, i'm not sure you did enough thinking about why you were doing it and what your plan after the flop was going to be. keep that in mind for next time.pot odds is not the problem the problem is putting a major chunk of your stack knowing 80% of the time you will just have to fold after the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
DB10-2 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 pot odds is not the problem the problem is putting a major chunk of your stack knowing 80% of the time you will just have to fold after the flop.i don't really buy into this. the cost of an orbit is 4500, which is 4-5 orbits if the SB wins or 2-4 orbits if the SB busts. even if he saves that money, he doesn't have a lot of time to get himself some chips when the blinds are so high relative to the stacks.spending 1/5 of my stack while getting 4-1 on my money with a chance to take the entire tournament down in this one hand is a shot i'll take, and here's why:let's look at the scenarios where jvick calls:1. he calls, then folds, and the button wins so they're heads up. stacks: jvick 20k, button 45k. (if he folds preflop, he has 25k to button's 40k.)2. he calls, then folds, and the SB wins. stacks: jvick 20k, SB 24k, button 21k. (if he folds preflop, he has 25k to a combined 40k elsewhere, but the stacks are so close it doesn't really matter.)3. he calls, they check it down or he bets and gets no action, and he wins: stacks: jvick 45k, button 20k.4. he calls, he hits a hand, and gets paid off big, potentially winning: this is what happened.i am discounting the possibility that jvick would put any more money into this pot without flopping a monster. i imagine he might call a bet with a flush draw, but who knows. he could even go broke himself on this hand if he moves in on a draw, but if he does, remember he still goes out in 2nd place assuming the button wins the hand outright. is that so bad?in these scenarios, i consider being left with a stack of 20k vs a stack of 25k pretty much the same thing given each orbit costs 4.5k. going broke probably still lets him finish second, and he's taking a shot in two of those scenarios to all but win the tournament or to have better than a 2-1 chip lead on the remaining player.like i said, not a bad call, but i doubt he thought this through before doing it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 why would he have to fold the flop? with an all in player, its not a bad assumption that it will get checked down. if he gets bet out of the pot, the all in player will probably lose anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
augmented 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 yeah....i really think this is an easy call. 96s isnt that bad, you have a better chance of knocking him out, and its really not that much. also, the likelihood of it getting checked down is extremely high, especially considering that it's just three handed, and i'm sure the payouts increase a lot, so its important to assure he gets knocked out. also, he is in position...someone said he wasnt and that couldnt be further from the truth. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerhoney28 0 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I prefer the deli bologna.....that is some good eats, but you have to get the beef but Oscar Meyer is the best. Also in reference to the play, for me pot odds and calling will depend on 4 things: The amount of chips in my stack......the odds I'm getting on my money....position...and finally how many people are in the pot all together. Probably not the best hand to go in with, especially if there were 2 others in it with you. But I agree just going in on the odds will probably end up busting you more often than not. I believe that you have to look at allthe angles before making a decision. But the end result was nice. I'll bet the others were pissed. :evil: Link to post Share on other sites
Kestral123 0 Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 This is an easy call, and it is absolutely about pot odds, as well as increasing your equity in the prize money. At 4:1, with short stack all-in and called, I'm overcalling with any two cards. Aside from the fact that there is no single hand you can hold that makes you more than a 4:1 underdog, your call significantly increases the chance that the small stack busts out. Assuming the other big stack has any kind of understanding of basic tournament strategy, he's not going to bet the flop unless he hits it very, very hard, in which case you can get out of dodge and play heads-up. You will still have 20,000, which is plenty enough to fight with.I don't understand why this is NOT an easy call, or at least I haven't seen a compelling argument yet. Link to post Share on other sites
GABMAD 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 WORST CALL EVER! I'd be embarassed to post this if I were you.Just kidding, I'm glad to respond...but please learn from this and do youself a favour and research pot odds and when to use them.... Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I just skimmed the other replies, and I dont think anyone asked the key questions...what is the payout structure and what is the main objective (though those are usually the same question).If first place is all that matters this is a no-brainer call. If stepping up to 2d prize is worthwhile, then conserving chips despite the odds may carry more weight. Link to post Share on other sites
bfineman 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I'm not sure how anyone could argue against calling here. If you're getting 4:1 on your money, the only way folding is the right play is if you know that you're up against an overpair or don't have any live cards. Otherwise, the fact that a dry side pot exists will potentially allow you to see the turn and river cheaply, which is exactly what you want with a hand like 6-9 suited. Link to post Share on other sites
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