can’t win on the net, but win in brick & mortar?

[fckthis 0]

I have the same problem, but not to the extent of yours.I have lost a few hundred online, but do much better live. For me I realized, that because I see more hands, I tend to get in too many pots and push the action way too much. Also being in a B&M, it is a much easier environment to concentrate in, as you get to see people play, and even talk to the person beside you.Also, because I started playing in B&ms, I guess Ive grown more adept to the surroundings and have a tough time learning how to crossover.Maybe some online players who have trouble in B&ms could comment.

[DaBruins 0]

many more hands seen online compared to live play + a lot of players seeing flops that shouldn't be = more bad beats. The more of a rock you are the more you will get cracked because you're never in the pot with the worst hand!My biggest downfall while playing online is that i give my opponents no respect at all. A lot of my game is based on reads/image and all that stuff so playing online is bit harder than playing live and thats why i dont do as well. Since i give my opponents no respect (because i cant look at their face and their play in person) i feel like i have to win almost every flop/turn i see. But you can't just push around players every single time if you have no reason to believe that you can other than the fact that you think you are the better player. Be patient, be aggressive when needed, and play hands that play well in multiway pots.

[brian67 0]

What does poker tracker have to do with being a winning player? The most likely reason that you cannot win online but can live is that you are not adapting to opponents enough. In a live game you are playing against much more predictable and less skilled players. You can play extremely tight and still manage to get plenty of action when you catch in a live game, but online those players seem to get eaten alive.

[Akka 0]

Had to register to write an answer to this. I have played online for around four years and are making a living at it. Since I live in Sweden I have never really had the chance to play any live games. Anyway just for fun me and a friend went to Vegas to play some poker. At first we were a little bit nervous about playing since all the players you see on TV are there and youve heard about great players grinding their living there. However, the general skill level at the NL tables in Vegas was way below the easiest low stakes online tables. After the initial surprise of these awful players we adapted to the game and realized that the "great" grinders were just rocks living on the average idiot. Example of live play that never will work online:Regular rock limps UTGsome limpers player raises from button in attempt to steal limpers and blinds or maybe protect hand. Rock goes all-in for 400 BB. Everyone folds to button who thinks for 10 seconds and then calls. Rock turns over AQo (me and my friend just gasped and thought stuff like "great bluff but it didnt work this time" and then button turns over A9o. This is how the regulars make money in vegas. When they dont do these kind of shitty manouvers (which turned out to be good since the average live player is a retard) they go all in with top pair average kicker and get called by ace high or middle pair. It was a while since I played the low stakes game online but the plays Ive seen live was way worse than anything Ive seen in years online.So my answer is:You could suck at online poker because you dont have poker tracker or because you dont concentrate or.... but must likely you need to get better. Live is a donkfest compared to online at least in NL.

[Dre 0]

No, I do not have a poker tracker for online.If you liked the 5/10 game in halifax.. you would love the 10/20 and 15/30 games. The 15/30 game goes on Sundays and most Wednesdays.The rest of the week you will find the 10/20 game.PS. I don't play in Halifax as often as I used to because there is a poker room in moncton with 10 tables playing a varitey of games. They treat the customers much better. They listen to them!!!Though I do miss the crew in halifax... especially TIM. lol. One of the best hand readers around. If he could ever stop calling people to prove his reads and stop playing the long shots (the gambler in him) he would be a very good player.

Sorry to go off topic but where do you play in Moncton and what kind of tables are available?Thanks,Dre

[Art Vanderley 0]

The fact is, you're comparing apples and oranges. 'Live' poker and online poker may both be called "poker" but are vastly different games. 'Live' poker is a highly psychological game about which it's debated, for instance, whether players should be allowed to wear sunglasses. Online poker, in which one never even sees one's opponent, is primarily a mathematical game, where the idea is to play the percentages. There is a little overlap, of course, but genarally the two games require two quite sepatate sets of skills.

[Erik67 0]

This is one of the best threads ever. A discussion of online vs. B&M that didn't turn into a dick wagging contest, I had to see it to believe it. I am one of those players who is profitable in B&M, but down in online. There have been alot of posts that show where I may be going wrong. I am up about $100 playing $.15/.25 NL on FCP since it opened. It's a hit on the ego to drop down from 2/5, but I'm determined to make online a profitable venture since I can play 20+ hrs. a week without hurting my business or social life.Thanks to all who contibuted.Erik

[leebs12 0]

I ienjoyed reading this...being 18 i cant play in cardrooms, but this was nice and inforamative, thanks.

[Cheppa 0]

Sorry to go off topic but where do you play in Moncton and what kind of tables are available?Thanks,Drk

I play at a variety of places, but the latest and now the most popular is Shakers. They have 10 tables. Mostly running 1/2 NL and 2/4 NLPlus they are running tournaments.

[Guest]

I also find Poker easier live than online for the simple reason that I can get a better sense of the player because I'm sitting there, being forced to pay attention. That's the main reason why I avoid NL online because the distractions (like FCP) get me down. I do well in limit because it is far easier to get a handle on a player online and you don't have to worry about reading what bet sizes mean. That's the tradeoff I get: Online means an easier game to reach and live means an easier game to beat.Oh, and, uh get Pokertracker...or something 8)

[Cheppa 0]

This is one of the best threads ever.  A discussion of online vs. B&M that didn't turn into a dick wagging contest, I had to see it to believe it.  I am one of those players who is profitable in B&M, but down in online.  There have been alot of posts that show where I may be going wrong.  I am up about $100 playing $.15/.25  NL on FCP since it opened.  It's a hit on the ego to drop down from 2/5, but I'm determined to make online a profitable venture since I can play 20+ hrs. a week without hurting my business or social life.Thanks to all who contibuted.Erik

I am glad the thread is doing what I had hoped it would do. It is positve and at the same time negative to hear that I am not the only one who finds onine poker to be a struggle.

The fact is, you're comparing apples and oranges. 'Live' poker and online poker may both be called "poker" but are vastly different games.  'Live' poker is a highly psychological game about which it's debated, for instance, whether players should be allowed to wear sunglasses. Online poker, in which one never even sees one's opponent, is primarily a mathematical game, where the idea is to play the percentages. There is a little overlap, of course, but genarally the two games require two quite sepatate sets of skills.

I agree with Art Vanderley, B&M poker is definately a diffent gameJust a thought... I wonder if there was a site that people could go to and log their poker results. Just people who lose, not the winners. If people would use it? Would be interesting to gather information and statistics on losing players. Their table name, the site they play at, the stakes they play, how many hands they played..etc.People could learn alot about the internet and poker. The information would be public, I am not sure if the internet gaming sites would like it. I know its not realistic, but it would be intersting if people were truthful.

[econ_tim 0]

It's not very hard to beat 3/6 limit HE online for $50 / hr.

You'd have to be multitabling and playing very well to earn $50/hr at 3/6.

[brian67 0]

chopper88 wrote:It's not very hard to beat 3/6 limit HE online for $50 / hr.

You'd have to be multitabling and playing very well to earn $50/hr at 3/6.

$50 per hour is possible at 3-6, but it's not necessarily easy.

[Abbaddabba 0]

With bonus and rakeback, you can do $50 an hour playing well at 2/4 (probably a minimum of 5 tables).Also not easy, but definitely possible.

[Cheppa 0]

With bonus and rakeback, you can do $50 an hour playing well at 2/4 (probably a minimum of 5 tables).Also not easy, but definitely possible.

a question for all you people making $50/ hour at the 3/6 tables. Do you know of anyone who is making $150/ hour at the 10/20 or 15/30 tables? Or does the rate change because the competition is suppose tobe better?

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'm not making $50/hour playing 3/6. I play 2/4, and my sample is too small to draw any conclusions about my true winrate. But to answer your question, yeah - of course it changes.A marginal winner at 2/4 or 3/6 is probably going to be a loser at 10/20 (online for both).Of course there will be exceptions where a 10/20 player is worse than a 2/4 player, but on average, the higher up you go, the higher the level of play.I imagine that at higher stakes against tough, aware opponents, multi tabling anything past 3 or 4 tables is much more difficult relative to low stakes, where pots are bigger and decisions more clear cut.

[Dre 0]

Sorry to go off topic but where do you play in Moncton and what kind of tables are available?Thanks,Drk

I play at a variety of places, but the latest and now the most popular is Shakers. They have 10 tables. Mostly running 1/2 NL and 2/4 NLPlus they are running tournaments.

What about limit tables Cheppa? Anything in Moncton?

[Cheppa 0]

Dre, if enough people want to play limit. Then they will start a limit game. NL, is so popular there that its hard to get people to start a limit game. They will be trying to set a day each week to get a Holdem Limit game going, plus they are want to get a weekly Omaha game going.Our private game we play every week, we play NL holdem till midnight, then after midnight dealers choice... Omaha, Pineapple, Crazy Pineapple, etc..Omaha is the most popular game after midnight. Bigger pots. lol

[Dre 0]

Thanks for the info. Too bad there's no place with limit tables other than that. I may call Doolys to see what they have there.Dre

[usctrunks 0]

actualy if you ask most FTP pros who play on full tilt poker most of them have losses there. go tell john juanda he has holes in his game. I think online is just a differant monster then B+M. B+M you have to learn more flop turn and river play while online it seems like preflop and flop is emphisized. Like online getting aces first position its great u can pot it preflop and u get like 2-3 players to play and the positional advantage is more minimal. at BM lets say you pot it its like a 10 20$ game and u make it 60-100 to go ur going to get like 5-6 people calling ur ass and now ur scared shi.tless with Aces underthe gun cus ur field is huge. the pot is now $600-700. potting it here would be suicide cus if someone caught ur now pot commited ( 800 dollars of ur money is now in the pot and assuming you baught in for 2k). they just got ur whole stack for 100 dollar raise. so suddenly its harder to get people out of draws and it comes down to reads and trying to narrow the field and figure out if ur beat and i gaurantee you you are going to see a turn theres no way in hell a turn isnt going to be seen here. I feel like if you want to win online you have to master the preflop flop game where as B+M you can get away with a good preflop flop game but also need a good understanding of turn and river play also to save money against draw outs. also its alot harder to pot it in B+M games cus the pot is so big it will cost your whole stack usualy. online its more rare to get like 4 players on the flop. also people get reads and try to steal the pot back at B+M but online reads are harder to get. also online is hyper agressive, its always more difficult to beat a really agressive game. thats my opinion.anyways thats my opinion thx (ive edited alot trying to fix typos and add words.

[usctrunks 0]

heres jsut something thats anoying that i can actualy say has never happened to me in a casino which is wierd.im dealer with 77 1 caller underthe gun folds to me i raise to 1buck this is .25 .25 nl sb calls the limper folds.flop 7 4 3. now i know he COULDA flopped the straight but its UNLIKELY and he checked it to me so i think yeah he hasnt hit no real major draws here i can take a card off the top. he has A5o btw turns a 2 he hit a ****ing gutshot the only ****ing card that helps him and of course our money goes in and im well aware the 65 could destory me but top set im notfolding the river is a blank so the only 2 hands that beat me were a5 and 65. now i know everyone says shit happens.but its anoying cus time after time im in hads where its like me and 1 or 2 other players and their flop ALWAYS gives them a shit load of help and im a 3 to 1 fav i had AJ vs a6suited the ****** hit the ace and the flush draw and turned the 6 its like come on!!!!!!!!! i know people get help but more often then not the flop should come something like A 10 2 and suits that arnt his or mine that shit pisses me off )= i rarely lose with a set in B+M and if i do its usualy to a flush and i can get away. i understand checking there is dangerous but putting him on a5 is hard. 65 is possible but then i was already beat anyways )=. its not often you flop a set so heads up its not so bad to take a card off the top imo especialy without a flush draw thereneways that shits anoying maybe it really does happen alot in B+M also and im seeing things but it always feels like it happens more online. )=cyas

[Suited_Up 2]

neways that censored anoying maybe it really does happen alot in B+M also and im seeing things but it always feels like it happens more online.

Both of your posts are way off. This whole thread is way off. People have already tried to explain it, but really nobody wants to listen. So I am not going to bother either.Let me address this statement about getting run down online, and not as much live.A week ago I was playing a 2/5NL game live, $200 buy-in. I get 88 in early position. I raise to $20 and get 2 callers. Flop is J83... I bet out $25, one guy behind me calls, and another lady goes all-in for $35. I call as does the guy behind me. Turn is a 4. I check hoping for a c/r, but he checks too. River is a J. Which looks like a great card for me. I bet $50. The guy folds, so there is no sidepot, and the lady who called $20 preflop, and went all-in on the flop. Turns over J4o, and has a higher full house w/ runner runner.Don't tell me things like this only happen online. In fact... most of the time, the players are much better online. As stated by a few people in this thread with some sense. The only reason you can win live, and not online, is because you aren't good enough. It's much harder to beat 3/6 or 5/10 online, than it is to beat 10/20 or 20/40 live. If you've only had one set lose, you're just extremely lucky. If you could see the cards of the people playing live, and see the cards of people online, you'd be amazed. Go watch Live at the Bike a few times. Play live is amazingly bad. That's why you win so easily. There is a reason that so many people in here can win live, but not online. And there's also a reason that you don't see anyone in here, who says they win online, but not live. Because those people don't exist. If you can win online, you can crush live games. Because they're easier, and you are given more information. But it's still very possible to win online, you just have to be a better player.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Kurt's dead on about this..the players live are a lot worse, and it contributes to some kind of head rush that allows those of us (myself included) who play almost exclusively live, that we're too good to lose online. That it's just "all these donks who call down and hit X hand on the river". Right, because I've never seen anyone do that live.I've played maybe 10-15 sessions of LHE online, none of any real length, none of any real consequence, other than, I got smoked. I mean, I got run over. I was playing 1/2 and 2/4, I thought, "this can't be, I've beaten 3/6 at the B&M pretty consistantly." Fact is, I'm just not a good limit hold 'em player--I suck.I'm absolutely horrible at Limit Hold 'Em and the fact that the players at my B&M are WORSE and play higher limits, doesn't make me good. Kurt was saying last night that a good 5/10 table online is the equivalent of a good 40/80 game B&M, that's probably pretty accurate. I guess, I'm rambling, but, my point is this. I CAN win at online--I choose not to. I choose not to take the necessary steps (Poker Tracker, reading enough literature on LHE, etc.) to make me a good limit player. Out of pure laziness, I guess, I choose not to be a good online LHE player, even though I can beat the LHE at my B&M.(For the record, I am a winning player online in NL and Razz games, though, my Online NL winrate isn't really anything to catch a boner about, I was just trying to help the perspective of the Live Guy)

[Abbaddabba 0]

actualy if you ask most FTP pros who play on full tilt poker most of them have losses there. go tell john juanda he has holes in his game.

Source? Not that i care (or dont believe it to be possible), but it doesnt sound like the kind of thing that anyone would ever know even if it was true. Which is why it's strange that you're claiming to know. And if he is a losing player online, then he definitely does have holes in his game. That's the very nature of what a hole is.

I'm absolutely horrible at Limit Hold 'Em and the fact that the players at my B&M are WORSE and play higher limits, doesn't make me good. Kurt was saying last night that a good 5/10 table online is the equivalent of a good 40/80 game B&M, that's probably pretty accurate.

I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration, though ive never watched a 40/80 for an extended period of time live.Typical 5/10 tables seem to be on par with 20/40's at casinos around where i live.

[Suited_Up 2]

actualy if you ask most FTP pros who play on full tilt poker most of them have losses there. go tell john juanda he has holes in his game.

Source? Not that i care (or dont believe it to be possible), but it doesnt sound like the kind of thing that anyone would ever know even if it was true. Which is why it's strange that you're claiming to know. And if he is a losing player online, then he definitely does have holes in his game. That's the very nature of what a hole is.

I'm absolutely horrible at Limit Hold 'Em and the fact that the players at my B&M are WORSE and play higher limits, doesn't make me good. Kurt was saying last night that a good 5/10 table online is the equivalent of a good 40/80 game B&M, that's probably pretty accurate.

I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration, though ive never watched a 40/80 for an extended period of time live.Typical 5/10 tables seem to be on par with 20/40's at casinos around where i live.

Close enough.