can’t win on the net, but win in brick & mortar?

[chopper88 0]

I play live in L.A. (3/6 limit mostly) on a regular basis and there is flat out no way in the world that anyone's going to convice me that online players are superior to B&M players. No way.A typical table at Commerce (or Hawaiian Gardens, The Bike, or anywhere else around here) is gonna be loaded with hardcore gamblers (we don't get the tourists here that Vegas gets) and ya'll are trying to tell me that there are multitudes of online players that would just crush them? C'mon.If I was 19 years old, sitting around in Iowa or wherever, beating the locals and booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns, I might be pretty happy with myself, too. Maybe thinking I'm a pretty good player that's better than most.But the real world doesn't work like that and ya'll are gonna be hurtin' if you come strolling into a legitimate B&M thinking you're gonna crush us inferior folk.I'd like to see one of you self-righteous Internet players sit down at a table full of Asian pros (and/or heavily-tattoed gangbangers who learned the game in prison) and try to explain to them how you're a clearly superior player. Chances are, you're not going to have stones enough to walk through the door---because you don't grow stones on the Internet.

This is so freaking stupid.Commerce 3/6 is twinkie soft, much easier than party by a factor of at least 10. I have never ever sat at a live 3/6 table full of expert cardplaying gangbangers and asian rounders.never ever.this must be written for comedic effect.i don't think you know anything about poker and i don't think you've played much at all online.so shut up.

[tommyrotten 0]

Never played with Asians and gangbangers? Then you've clearly never played Hawaiian Gardens.Mind your manners, Chopper my boy

[chopper88 0]

Never played with Asians and gangbangers? Then you've clearly never played Hawaiian Gardens.Mind your manners, Chopper my boy

Not a table full of them.That said, every low limit B+M game I've ever sat at has had at most 1 to 2 other guys at the table with half a clue. The rest were fish, normally huge fish. Really bad players. All over.Go sit at an online 3/6 game and you will find at minimum there are 3-4 guys that don't out and out suck and most of the bad players aren't as bad. The kind of total retard you'll find bunches of in live 3/6 games you gotta look out for.You have not and do not play online, so STFU. You don't know what you're talking about. Live players at the low to mid limits are way way way worse for a bunch of reasons that have already gone into here many times.

[tommyrotten 0]

Never played with Asians and gangbangers? Then you've clearly never played Hawaiian Gardens.Mind your manners, Chopper my boy

Not a table full of them.That said, every low limit B+M game I've ever sat at has had at most 1 to 2 other guys at the table with half a clue. The rest were fish, normally huge fish. Really bad players. All over.Go sit at an online 3/6 game and you will find at minimum there are 3-4 guys that don't out and out suck and most of the bad players aren't as bad. The kind of total retard you'll find bunches of in live 3/6 games you gotta look out for.You have not and do not play online, so STFU. You don't know what you're talking about. Live players at the low to mid limits are way way way worse for a bunch of reasons that have already gone into here many times.

How do you know what my online playing habits are? And so authoritatively, too!You're inventing facts and I'm the one who needs to STFU?

[fakeusername2 0]

Commerce 3/6 is twinkie soft

not sure if twinkie soft is the proper term. dont get me wrong they are full of bad players but a better term would probably be reckless. the games in L.A. at any limit or not soft games you can run over with shear aggression. i haven't played 3/6 limits in years but the style of play is similar at all limits in one way. push push push. soft to me represents call call call and fold fold fold. DN wrote about L.A. games in one of his cardplayer articles. you can chk it out in the archives.also middle limits here are considered 15-30 to 40-80 and for reasons i stated above they are far from being filled with bad players. i think they consist of some of the best players in the world.

[chopper88 0]

Commerce 3/6 is twinkie soft

not sure if twinkie soft is the proper term. dont get me wrong they are full of bad players but a better term would probably be reckless. the games in L.A. at any limit or not soft games you can run over with shear aggression. i haven't played 3/6 limits in years but the style of play is similar at all limits in one way. push push push. soft to me represents call call call and fold fold fold. DN wrote about L.A. games in one of his cardplayer articles. you can chk it out in the archives.also middle limits here are considered 15-30 to 40-80 and for reasons i stated above they are far from being filled with bad players. i think they consist of some of the best players in the world.

Commerce 15/30 consists of some of the best players in the world?You're joking, right?

[Abbaddabba 0]

i think wat is considered middle or high limit online is different than live and thats where the confusion or disagreement lies. 15-30 might be high limits online but is on the boarder of low and middle at live casinos(large ones at least, i.e. commerce, bellagio, and the poker industry for that matter) for example when i look at ultimatebet and click high limit tab it includes 15-30. anyone in the poker industry would agree that is not correct when it comes to live play. at commerce casino for example 15-30 is consider middle limit at best and there are plenty of tables running 24/7. this not the case online. my arguement was that althought you maybe accurate in that online players are more skilled that live, that is only the case at lower limits. starting at the middle limits i think the opposite is true.

I can say that from what ive seen, that definitely isnt the case for stakes as high as 20/40. Anything beyond that i have no information of, but i cant imagine there being a dramatic shift.Do you play higher than that?

not sure if twinkie soft is the proper term. dont get me wrong they are full of bad players but a better term would probably be reckless. the games in L.A. at any limit or not soft games you can run over with shear aggression.

No, instead you run over them by not being mentally retarded.A stringent standard that a curiously large percentage of casino dwellers can't live up to.

[fakeusername2 0]

i think this arguement is pointless now.for those that believe live games at limits 15-30 to 40-80 are weak, full of donks and so forth more power to you.as you FCP ers like to say TP/MM

[PrtyPSux 0]

I play live in L.A. (3/6 limit mostly) on a regular basis and there is flat out no way in the world that anyone's going to convice me that online players are superior to B&M players. No way.A typical table at Commerce (or Hawaiian Gardens, The Bike, or anywhere else around here) is gonna be loaded with hardcore gamblers (we don't get the tourists here that Vegas gets) and ya'll are trying to tell me that there are multitudes of online players that would just crush them? C'mon.If I was 19 years old, sitting around in Iowa or wherever, beating the locals and booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns, I might be pretty happy with myself, too. Maybe thinking I'm a pretty good player that's better than most.But the real world doesn't work like that and ya'll are gonna be hurtin' if you come strolling into a legitimate B&M thinking you're gonna crush us inferior folk.I'd like to see one of you self-righteous Internet players sit down at a table full of Asian pros (and/or heavily-tattoed gangbangers who learned the game in prison) and try to explain to them how you're a clearly superior player. Chances are, you're not going to have stones enough to walk through the door---because you don't grow stones on the Internet.

dude you make me laugh.what asian hardcore gambling pro plays 3/6 lhe live? bahahahahahahahahahahahaIve played 7 live games in my life: 3/6 lhe in LA, 3/6 and 4/8 kill in morongo, 4/8 6/12 and 10/20 (shorthanded) in MGM and 3/5 NL again in Morongo. I played all those games back when I was playing 2/4 lhe online. And I felt more comfortable in each of the live games than I did online. I didnt see 1 SINGLE PLAYER in ANY of my live limit games (I saw 1 or 2 at my NL game), and I can usually spot at least 1 decent player at stakes as low as 1/2 online. Just go read the sshe forum on 2+2 and you'll see there's guys playig 1/2-2/4 that know their stuff. I find it incredibly hilarious and extremely retarded that you think that a heavily tattoed ex-con makes a good poker player... LMFAO! I played w/ 8 gangbangers when I played in Compton, lol, they literally couldnt spell poker. Let alone play it.To tell you the truth, I cant wait 'til Im 21 and I could go sit in a 30/60 game here in LA. I know people who say 30/60 is a cakewalk in vegas, and EVERYONE knows that LA games are softer than vegas games (which is another ignorant point you made), so I reaaaally cant wait. I'll pm you when Im down at the commerce after May. I'll let you rail me.

[PrtyPSux 0]

for those that believe live games at limits 15-30 to 40-80 are weak, full of donks and so forth more power to you.

not full of donks, but theirs certainly a bigger donk:pro ratio than there is online.especially at 40/80.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

If I was 19 years old, sitting around in Iowa or wherever, beating the locals and booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns, I might be pretty happy with myself, too. Maybe thinking I'm a pretty good player that's better than most..

Geez, was this directed at me? Let me set you straight on a few things. I play poker almost exclusively in Des Moines. That is true. I am not, however, 19 years old. I am not, also, booking "winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns."I have played poker in Kansas City, Tunica, Tulsa and a variety of other large cities. I've been a winning player on every trip I've taken except the one to Kansas City, when I decided to take a shot at some 5/10 NL. I also play a weekly 5/10 Razz home game that's got some players from the California area. My point being, I'm not some hayseed who throws cow chips into the pot as collateral. I know what the fuck I'm talking about or I don't open my mouth. Get it?Your point about "booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere small towns.." is absolutely the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life--and that's say something.You're supposing to tell me that people who play online are exclusively from next-to-nowhere small towns? Wrong. You're also supposing to tell me that everyone who plays online is a hack? Wrong. You mean, those thousands and thousands of people on Party and Stars are from small towns, just like me? They're all hacks, too? Outstanding.The fact that you find the 3/6 game at Commerce tough, coupled with the fact you consider online to be of a low skill level(I bet you got sucked out on a couple times playing 2/4 right?), alongside your blatant fucking stupidity tells me that it's likely you're just not a very good poker player. The average 5/10 player on Party is worlds ahead of the average 5/10 player at Commerce, I promise. If they aren't better than your live game, you should stop going to Commerce and play on Party. You see more hands, you can play multiple tables, so you can win more, right? Right. That or you're a donk who has a tough time beating a 3/6 live game and would drown online. One of the two.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Your point about "booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere small towns.." is absolutely the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life--and that's say something.

I think this was even dumber.

I'd like to see one of you self-righteous Internet players sit down at a table full of Asian pros (and/or heavily-tattoed gangbangers who learned the game in prison) and try to explain to them how you're a clearly superior player.

just MO though.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Your point about "booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere small towns.." is absolutely the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life--and that's say something.

I think this was even dumber.

I'd like to see one of you self-righteous Internet players sit down at a table full of Asian pros (and/or heavily-tattoed gangbangers who learned the game in prison) and try to explain to them how you're a clearly superior player.

just MO though.

They're neck and neck.Though, I'm unsure why you would feel like you need to tell ANYBODY at the table you're a superior player. I'd think you'd want that kept under wraps.

[oceansize 0]

If I was 19 years old, sitting around in Iowa or wherever, beating the locals and booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns, I might be pretty happy with myself, too. Maybe thinking I'm a pretty good player that's better than most..

Geez, was this directed at me? Let me set you straight on a few things. I play poker almost exclusively in Des Moines. That is true. I am not, however, 19 years old. I am not, also, booking "winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere little towns."I have played poker in Kansas City, Tunica, Tulsa and a variety of other large cities. I've been a winning player on every trip I've taken except the one to Kansas City, when I decided to take a shot at some 5/10 NL. I also play a weekly 5/10 Razz home game that's got some players from the California area. My point being, I'm not some hayseed who throws cow chips into the pot as collateral. I know what the fuck I'm talking about or I don't open my mouth. Get it?Your point about "booking winners online playing against a bunch of other hacks from similar next-to-nowhere small towns.." is absolutely the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life--and that's say something.You're supposing to tell me that people who play online are exclusively from next-to-nowhere small towns? Wrong. You're also supposing to tell me that everyone who plays online is a hack? Wrong. You mean, those thousands and thousands of people on Party and Stars are from small towns, just like me? They're all hacks, too? Outstanding.The fact that you find the 3/6 game at Commerce tough, coupled with the fact you consider online to be of a low skill level(I bet you got sucked out on a couple times playing 2/4 right?), alongside your blatant censored stupidity tells me that it's likely you're just not a very good poker player. The average 5/10 player on Party is worlds ahead of the average 5/10 player at Commerce, I promise. If they aren't better than your live game, you should stop going to Commerce and play on Party. You see more hands, you can play multiple tables, so you can win more, right? Right. That or you're a donk who has a tough time beating a 3/6 live game and would drown online. One of the two.

Kick his ass Sea Bass!

[Ramocita 0]

I used to say the same thing... I sucked at online poker and won at live play.I have lost a lOT of money on line and I was determined to be a winning player and play within my limits and play the correct way.I have learned this from FCP... and I thank you everyone!I have successfully managed to do this.. however... I still prefer to play live and since i have been playing so much on line I have to remeber notto give away too much information. YOU CAN WIN at online poker if you play the correct way.Good Luck to the OP.

[Cue 0]

...I know there is the argument that you see almost 3 times as many hands, so you will get 3 times as many bad beats. The beats I have seen online, are just so rediculus and and happen way more often than they should. Its like people have a crystal ball.Some calls just make no sense. Or are people playing more than one seat at a ring game table?

Yes, I have heard this said often and quite frankly it makes no sense at all. Yes because of the higher dealt hand rate you will see the bad beats happening what seems more frequently but you should also be paid off more frequently as these donks don't hit.

[Akka 0]

But the issue isnt whether the "best" players play live or online. It's that the average live player is far inferior to their online counterpart for identical stakes.

i only agree with this statement when in regards to lower limits.5-10, 10-20 are considered lower limits at live casinos.20-40 can be considered perhaps the start of middle limits.the higher you go in limits the less accurate your statement is.as far as DN playing online, yes i am aware of his site. but you would have to agree he is considered a live cash game and tourney player with limited online experience at best. even with that he took on some of the better high limit online players and so far has the better of it. so i believe this is a small example that backs my statement. in addition he has had the better of these online players on their forum. what would happen if he played them in a live casino. that brings another factor into the arguement. is the true test of ones poker skill attainable in an online platform. i believe poker in its purest form can only be played face to face. not behind a screen.

I know there are alot of DN fans and I can also appreciate his game but I believe the DC crew when they say they are better than him. You have to acknowledge that the players he played so far are not even close to those who are considered the best online players. It's not because the fact that they are so much smarter than DN. Its about experience. I would not be surprised if DC guys put in 6000 hands HU Limit online per day which quite quickly becomes as many hands as DN has played in his entire life.When it comes to the pure "strategic" part of poker I can bet any amount that the most skilled players are found online in the likes of Erik123 etc (being a swede myself I know we have a few hundred players who crush the highest online limits).Edit: If you listen to the online pro jargong they talk about the famous tv-players as fish. It's pay day when the tv-guys decide to try their luck online. I think many of the great tournament players really are good at what they do (playing under extreme pressure of the cameras and from opponents) but I also believe they really dont have the best of it in the online cash games.

[Abbaddabba 0]

i think this arguement is pointless now. for those that believe live games at limits 15-30 to 40-80 are weak, full of donks and so forth more power to you. as you FCP ers like to say TP/MM

I dont know if you're choosing to misinterpret what ive said to save face from previous misinterpretations, or if you really are just blind.Im not saying that the 15/30 up is full of terrible players. The average level of play (from 15/30 and 20/40 in my experience, higher than that i dont know) is lower than the average level of play for identical stakes online.My comment about the mentally retarded was with respect to the 3/6 game full of maniacs.Do you know what an "average" is in this context?www.dictionary.com

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

Allright, I skipped most of this thread, but it seems like people (except suited up and a few others ) are totally missing an obvious point.1.) Online play is better at any given limit (as already mentioned)2.) You play a lot more hands per hr online, even playing one table. If there is a leak in your game, it gets exposed a lot quicker online. People think they are good live players because they won a hand with AA, KK, avoided any big losses and left.3.) Online your wins or losses are pretty clear. If you look in the cashier window, it is hard to lie about how much you are up or down. When people play live, big losses turn into small losses. Small wins turn into monster sessions.

[Cheppa 0]

Wow, I have been away for the last week and have not been able to log onto FCP. Thanks for all the posts and advice. I guess this turned out to be a decent thread.I wish I could comment on all the posts, but I don't have the time..lolI think it is time to kill this thread...Thanks to everyone