ageism

[endo 0]

One of my biggest pet peeves is ageism. I found it a little ironic that in DN's blog where he mentions "racism", he stereotypes based on age (and sprinkles in a little nationalistic stereotypes as well).One of my favorite things about poker is that it is such a pure form of competition between individuals where age, gender, sexual preference, ethnicity, etc. are all pretty meaningless (much like it is in most aspects of life).It's easy not to stereotype ethnicity. It's a little less easy (though still easy) not to stereotype gender or sexual preference. I find it odd how easy it is to attack age. Almost everyone does it. Ageism is not nearly as impactful as "racisim" or sexism, but I still think it's an issue that's overlooked - even often widely accepted as truthful.Just wanted to share my 2 cents.

[Steppin Razor 0]

Where is the age stereotyping?

[endo 0]

I don't know his intent, but it's possible his use of the word "kid" (and other words pointing to their youth) is mildly (very mildly, but still) derogatory.It's mostly the overall tone of the section about his heads up match with DC. And the fact that you don't see it, is kind of one of the points I was trying to make.The main specific section was, "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's 23 for goodness sakes!" He backs up the assumption by drawing conclusion from the sample of early 20's people he's experienced (including himself)."When I was 23, I was 172% certain that nobody could possibly play better than I did or know more about poker than me. I was young, fearless, naive, and falsely invincible.It's a pretty common trait amongst young players honestly"The very fact that he brings up counterexamples he's experienced (from other countries) makes drawing conclusions based on age even more meaningless. "Those kids totally amaze me. "What if I were to say the following, "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's black for goodness sakes! It's a pretty common trait amongst black players honestly, especially those born in the U.S. I've come across several black people from Africa, that would rip through the boastful African-Americans, and do it with an aura of maturity, discipline, and skill that I've never come across before. Those black people totally amaze me. "How would that fly? Like my original post said, "racism" is a much bigger problem, but ageism is still pretty darn silly.

[bdc30 0]

Can you not say ANYTHING these days without f'king offending SOMEBODY??Now calling someone a "kid" is offensive??What's next, outlawing the word Christmas??(wait....that's already happened....) :roll: This kid is acting like a young punk, and he deserveseverything DN is saying about him.

[Guest]

Although I'm laughing long and hard about the "christmas three" issue I really think he's got a point.

[Steppin Razor 0]

heh, I re-read the first part looking for the 'ageism' thinking it had nothing to do with the DC part.Honestly, I agree with everything he said about 'kids' in the general sense. Even aside from the fact that there are neurological differences between an adult's and teenager's brain. I also went back to college when I was ~25 or so, being around 'kids' while not being one myself anymore. I think I was about 24 or 25 when I kind of looked back at all the stupid things I did/thought/said when I was younger and thought they were stupid. I remember one time, we were having a debate in History class my senior year about the draft and Vietnam. I realized later that even having learned in class, none of us knew censored about censored and had no business having an opinion.Give it time, sonny , and you'll come around too.

[endo 0]

DC deserves worse than what DN is saying about him. DC's a classless jerk, and isn't even remotely in DN's league at headsup limit hold'em. I just don't like elitist slants against people based on age. It's the whole, "you're young, you don't know any better" attitude. I wholeheartedly approve of DN attacking DC in his blogs. I just don't like attacking his age. DC's age has nothing to do with his character. Age has nothing to do with anybody's character.

[endo 0]

There will always be tons of people younger than you that know more than you and are more mature than you.There will always be tons of people older than you that know less than you and are less mature than you.Retards and badasses come in all shapes and sizes (and ethnicities, and genders, and ages).

[matt2500 0]

"When I was 16, I was amazed at how ignorant my father was. When I was 21, I was astounded by how much the old man had learned in the last five years."==Mark TwainHeh, it's funny. I was playing last night at a local casino, and a young guy (23 years old) came in with both his new wife and his 60-something dad. He sat next to his dad, and would 'advise' him on hands.Well, I sat on the other side of the kid, and while I'm hardly an old man (I'm 36), another 60-something guy on my left and I, along with the kid's dad, eventually ganged up on the poor guy in good-natured ribbing. The kid spent the whole night telling his dad how badly his old man had played this or that hand, how he should have raised here, or checked there. He did the same to his wife across the table.Except, of course, you know where all the money was at the end of the night. The kid had to re-buy twice. His dad and his wife (along with a few of us other folk at the table) had all his money after a couple of hours. The best moment of the night was when he scolded his wife about some play or other, and she told him to 'shut up and rebuy'.

[matt2500 0]

Following on the main topic, though, I play poker recreationally, mostly at a local 4-8 limit game, and in low buy-in tournaments. There really is a quite amusing dichotomy between older and younger players. I'm as competitive as anyone, and I play to win, track results, hands, etc, and so do a lot of the older players. And the games I play in are pretty friendly, everyone chatting it up, and having fun. But then you get in a lot of these 22 and 23 year old players who have watched WAY too many reruns of the WPT and WSOP. They come in loaded to the gills with iPods, fancy sunglasses and muscle T-shirts. They spend five minutes staring someone down pondering a call of a one-bet raise in a $4 game.And, to be quite truthful, they almost ALWAYS lose all their money. It's definitely a new type of player you can take advantage of in live games - the internet sit-n-go player who has probably never played live, let alone played limit poker, and is trying to pull off what he thinks are advanced 'plays' based on what he's seen by watching the final tables of big buy-in tournaments on TV, and then can't stop berating you when you call his one-bet raise pre-flop with 9-10 suited when he's got A-J off on the button, then check-raise him with your top-pair, four-to-a-flush on the turn.So, while I also know a lot of pretty and/or really good young players, there's definitely a certain segment that fits the demographic DN was describing in his article.

[killer 0]

It's the whole, "you're young, you don't know any better" attitude.

*******************************************This isn't what DN was talking about though...he was talking about the "trash-talking, poker-playing punks" that have literally NO respect for the history of the game and the people that were there before the game got "big"!!That's what I read into it!!Yes, there are alot of "kids" that DO have respect for the "pioneers", but there are alot of others that just play online and sit behind their faceless computers and slam everybody in all types of situations...I think these are the "kids" that Daniel's talking about!!IMNSHO

[TexasCoffee 0]

Hi all,I find this topic rather amusing. I have some experience that relates here. Let me explain...I have spent a career interviewing people in one capacity or another. My career started as a "young" soldier as an Army Interrogator specializing in the Russian, Serbian, Croatian, and German cultures. This work kept me in language school and in Europe for several years and along the way I learned how people differ by nationality and background. From there, I accepted a position for a government agency during the Bosnian peace enforcement era. Among other things, I spent three years interviewing people indicted for war crimes (ethnic-cleansing is a race-related crime). Now, I broker businesses and sell money for a living.I am not a political expert and I do not wish to offend anybody. However, in my experience - human physiology (sex/physical conditioning), race/ethnicity (background/life experience), and age (behavior/maturity) all play a large part in how people respond to stress and make decisions.To make general assumptions about somebody’s sex, race, or age for hiring or social purposes is folly. However, to ignore where somebody comes from when considering why a particular action was made or believing that we are all robots is equally foolish.Here is a final thought: In 1960, at the age of 24, Mikhail Tal became the World Champion by defeating Botvinnik in a championship match. In 1989, I had the privilege of playing a game of chess with Mikhail Tal at the U.S. Chess Championships in Long Beach, California. He was much older and his physical conditioning and medications left him a shadow of his former self. I was 15.My question for the OP is… When is age not a factor in any competition?! Gymnastics, chess, wrestling, golf, poker…Sorry for the long post – it’s a slow day at work today. Good luck all!

[Hobbes 1]

Main Entry: stereotypeFunction: noun2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgmentMain Entry: gen·er·al·iza·tion Function: noun2 : a general statement, law, principle, or propositionIs he stereotyping young poker players or making a generalization about young poker players? Too often I think people want to say that any general statement is a stereotype, but that's not true. Whenever you are talking about a large group of anything, you make general statements, otherwise you have to list all of the exceptions and your speech starts sounding like the internal revenue code (tax law).

[endo 0]

This isn't what DN was talking about though...he was talking about the "trash-talking, poker-playing punks" that have literally NO respect for the history of the game and the people that were there before the game got "big"!!

If that's what he meant, then he could have said "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's a trash-talking, poker-playing punk with no respect for the history of the game!". Instead, he states that his youth has something to do with his problems. If you're reading the statements with blinders on, then I feel you don't think that generational disdain is an issue. A minor one, I've repeatedly admitted, but an issue I feel the world can do without.

I am not a political expert and I do not wish to offend anybody. However, in my experience - human physiology (sex/physical conditioning), race/ethnicity (background/life experience), and age (behavior/maturity) all play a large part in how people respond to stress and make decisions. To make general assumptions about somebody’s sex, race, or age for hiring or social purposes is folly. However, to ignore where somebody comes from when considering why a particular action was made or believing that we are all robots is equally foolish.

I disagree that ethnicity and age play a part in "how people respond to stress and make decisions". (with sex/phisical conditioning it depends on the activity in question) I agree that background and life experience plays a large part in your development and how you handle situations. But I don't draw any correlations between ethnicity and/or age to background and life experience. We're not all robots - we all have different backgrounds and experiences, little of which has to do with our ethnicity or age.

Here is a final thought: In 1960, at the age of 24, Mikhail Tal became the World Champion by defeating Botvinnik in a championship match. In 1989, I had the privilege of playing a game of chess with Mikhail Tal at the U.S. Chess Championships in Long Beach, California. He was much older and his physical conditioning and medications left him a shadow of his former self. I was 15. My question for the OP is… When is age not a factor in any competition?! Gymnastics, chess, wrestling, golf, poker…

That's an awesome point. And a tricky question. Age with regards to physical activities was not what I was talking about, so gymnastics, wrestling, etc. are out of the scope of this discussion. Obviously, any given 1-year old is different from a 24-year old which is different from a 108-year old in many activities. I'm not that interested in drawing the exact line, just trying to convince people that the line is vastly wider than most of society's view. I would never dare to compare a 14-year old (poker player, musician, political analyst, whatever) to a 39-year old and consider their age difference to be a factor. It isn't. In a school chess competition, I don't believe the age guidelines are in place to protect the disadvantaged youth. They're in place as guidelines based on experience. Should a young chess badass be prohibited from competing with older, less-skilled people? I don't think so. I guess my point is that the differences people see based on age are superficial. It isn't the age they're seeing. They're misinterpreting the data of experience, background, psychology. I think your example of the former world champion actually argues MY point.

Is he stereotyping young poker players or making a generalization about young poker players? Too often I think people want to say that any general statement is a stereotype, but that's not true. Whenever you are talking about a large group of anything, you make general statements, otherwise you have to list all of the exceptions and your speech starts sounding like the internal revenue code (tax law).

How would you classify the following statement? "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's black for goodness sakes! It's a pretty common trait amongst black players honestly, especially those born in the U.S."

[jooka 0]

Can you not say ANYTHING these days without f'king offending SOMEBODY??

you're so offending me right now. better back off pal!

[killer 0]

This isn't what DN was talking about though...he was talking about the "trash-talking, poker-playing punks" that have literally NO respect for the history of the game and the people that were there before the game got "big"!!  

If that's what he meant, then he could have said "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's a trash-talking, poker-playing punk with no respect for the history of the game!". Instead, he states that his youth has something to do with his problems. If you're reading the statements with blinders on, then I feel you don't think that generational disdain is an issue. A minor one, I've repeatedly admitted, but an issue I feel the world can do without.

I am not a political expert and I do not wish to offend anybody. However, in my experience - human physiology (sex/physical conditioning), race/ethnicity (background/life experience), and age (behavior/maturity) all play a large part in how people respond to stress and make decisions.  To make general assumptions about somebody’s sex, race, or age for hiring or social purposes is folly. However, to ignore where somebody comes from when considering why a particular action was made or believing that we are all robots is equally foolish.  

I disagree that ethnicity and age play a part in "how people respond to stress and make decisions". (with sex/phisical conditioning it depends on the activity in question) I agree that background and life experience plays a large part in your development and how you handle situations. But I don't draw any correlations between ethnicity and/or age to background and life experience. We're not all robots - we all have different backgrounds and experiences, little of which has to do with our ethnicity or age.

Here is a final thought: In 1960, at the age of 24, Mikhail Tal became the World Champion by defeating Botvinnik in a championship match. In 1989, I had the privilege of playing a game of chess with Mikhail Tal at the U.S. Chess Championships in Long Beach, California. He was much older and his physical conditioning and medications left him a shadow of his former self. I was 15.  My question for the OP is… When is age not a factor in any competition?! Gymnastics, chess, wrestling, golf, poker…

That's an awesome point. And a tricky question. Age with regards to physical activities was not what I was talking about, so gymnastics, wrestling, etc. are out of the scope of this discussion. Obviously, any given 1-year old is different from a 24-year old which is different from a 108-year old in many activities. I'm not that interested in drawing the exact line, just trying to convince people that the line is vastly wider than most of society's view. I would never dare to compare a 14-year old (poker player, musician, political analyst, whatever) to a 39-year old and consider their age difference to be a factor. It isn't. In a school chess competition, I don't believe the age guidelines are in place to protect the disadvantaged youth. They're in place as guidelines based on experience. Should a young chess badass be prohibited from competing with older, less-skilled people? I don't think so. I guess my point is that the differences people see based on age are superficial. It isn't the age they're seeing. They're misinterpreting the data of experience, background, psychology. I think your example of the former world champion actually argues MY point.

Is he stereotyping young poker players or making a generalization about young poker players? Too often I think people want to say that any general statement is a stereotype, but that's not true. Whenever you are talking about a large group of anything, you make general statements, otherwise you have to list all of the exceptions and your speech starts sounding like the internal revenue code (tax law).

How would you classify the following statement? "Of course, you could never convince him of that, he's black for goodness sakes! It's a pretty common trait amongst black players honestly, especially those born in the U.S."

*********************************************************Whatever dude :roll: , obviously no-one's going to give you the answer/response you so crave...all I was saying is I'm pretty sure DN doesn't lump all "kids" together just as he probably doesn't lump all anything together...carry on whining!!

[Oblivious 0]

I was in an argument with my step-father once when I was 15 years old. He said, "I havnt cared what a 15 year old thought since I was 14." He later went to jail for fraud, so apparently I was a more capable member of society at my young age than he.Watch a daytime talk show where some kid is behaving badly. It doesnt matter what she is doing: having sex, doing drugs, stealing cars. You'll hear one argument over and over again from every incompotent adult in the studio: "YOURE ONLY X-TEEN!!!" You'd think that if the kid were behaving so badly, theyd have more important things to talk about than just her age. Her behavior isnt age-inappropreate, its just inappropreate in general.After hearing "youre only [so old]" all my life, Ive eagarly awaited that age where I become omnipotent like all those older people who were saying it to me. Alas, I'm now older than many of them were when they said it to me, but I still hear the phrase over and over.Daniel's remark was classic Ad hominem, and was a cop out because he was too lazy and arrogant to put forth a logical productive argument. I think Daniel is ultimately a really nice guy, but he slipped up here (just like anyone would who spends so much time blogging in such a frank manner). Im sure the adults that Ive had to deal with in my past would like to think that they didnt have to reason with me because my age made me incapable. They might have been right when i was 2 years old, but theyre not right when Im 23. If DC is a stubborn bonehead (which it sounds like he is), he will likely be just as stubborn and boneheaded when hes Daniels age (in what? 6 years?).If Daniel was a stubborn bonehead at 23, and has somehow come around to be all knowing, reasonable, and ultimately logical, then good for him. Im glad youve improved, but you have to realize that it was a personal experience. Most people are idiots all their lives.

[delphi12 0]

Well, ill be stereotypical and say that it does come from his Romanian heritage. I have married into a Romanian family and am just shocked at some of the things that are said when I visit - they often forget that I am Jewish and that my wife converted to Judiasm and yet some anti-semetic remark will be said - often in front of my kids which is even worse. I don't blame DN for these things - I understand them. Though he never actually went through the difficulties of living in Romania during wars and during a communist regime, he was definitely brought up by people who did and you learn a lot from those who you are around often.

[Longshanks 0]

romanians are so poor they are violent in nature, havent you seen south park?

[Jonbonwolf 0]

One of my biggest pet peeves is ageism. I found it a little ironic that in DN's blog where he mentions "racism", he stereotypes based on age (and sprinkles in a little nationalistic stereotypes as well).One of my favorite things about poker is that it is such a pure form of competition between individuals where age, gender, sexual preference, ethnicity, etc. are all pretty meaningless (much like it is in most aspects of life).It's easy not to stereotype ethnicity. It's a little less easy (though still easy) not to stereotype gender or sexual preference. I find it odd how easy it is to attack age. Almost everyone does it. Ageism is not nearly as impactful as "racisim" or sexism, but I still think it's an issue that's overlooked - even often widely accepted as truthful.Just wanted to share my 2 cents.

Main Entry: stereotype Function: noun 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment So what’s wrong with "Stereotyping" Really?!? As long as you don’t just use that one piece of information. And that’s all it really is. I think its kind of silly to ignore any information about an opponent. It about the “INTENT” We all forget this. We get so caught up in this or that, and weForget what the intent of the person is.DN, Didn’t like this guy (DC) He gave him an out, by saying “well he’s young” and maybe when he gets older he may act a little better. DC was an ass according to DN. So really in this situation calling him young wasn’t a rip it was giving the clown an excuse to be a knob.I’ve always thought of saying you shouldn’t stereotype, as being the same thing as saying you should turn off your brain Are stereotypes 100% true, NO! Are they based on something YES!Ohhh……… And I find it odd how easy it is to attack………….. everthing!!!Happy #*@$$

[Steppin Razor 0]

Age has nothing to do with anybody's character.

Of course it does. It's not the only thing that influences one's character but it's one. Parts of the brain are less developed in younger people (teens up to early 20's) including action/consequence assessment. I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you are young, and tired of hearing people badmouth kids because you are likely more mature, responsible, etc. than most of the kids people are talking about.There is a difference between generalities and stereotypes. In general, kids are __________ (fill in the blank). I may find that generality to be true. If I meet a younger person and automatically believe that they are ________, then I am stereotyping.I'm a Honda enthusiast, and I race mine at an appropriate venue. I've modified my car, knowing about things like slip angles, weight transfer, roll centers, etc. In general, people who have modified Hondas don't know their elbows from their censored's, often street race, and are 'kids' like DC. Some of us know a lot, a fewer of us know enough to know how much we don't know, but in general the Honda enthusiast is the type of guy I mentioned.When I attended a BMW club event, I had a conversation that went like this:BMW guy: 'What do you drive?' Me: 'a Honda.' BMW guy: 'You street race?' Then, I was being stereotyped. And I don't even have enough hair on my head to be considered a kid.

[Hobbes 1]

Main Entry: stereotype Function: noun 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment So what’s wrong with "Stereotyping" Really?!? As long as you don’t just use that one piece of information. And that’s all it really is. I think its kind of silly to ignore any information about an opponent. It about the “INTENT” We all forget this. We get so caught up in this or that, and weForget what the intent of the person is.DN, Didn’t like this guy (DC) He gave him an out, by saying “well he’s young” and maybe when he gets older he may act a little better. DC was an ass according to DN. So really in this situation calling him young wasn’t a rip it was giving the clown an excuse to be a knob.I’ve always thought of saying you shouldn’t stereotype, as being the same thing as saying you should turn off your brain Are stereotypes 100% true, NO! Are they based on something YES!Ohhh……… And I find it odd how easy it is to attack………….. everthing!!!Happy #*@$$

I think the bolded part is what is wrong with stereotyping.Steppin Razor said it well, "There is a difference between generalities and stereotypes. In general, kids are __________ (fill in the blank). I may find that generality to be true. If I meet a younger person and automatically believe that they are ________, then I am stereotyping."