moral issue - free or dirty money

[mclark340 0]

I am sure I will get several people who will just laugh at me...but I do ask that all of you take a minute to let this situation sink in.I was at the Wynn this weekend playing some poker when the following happened:I walk into the poker room at 7am to see a crowd around the HUGE $1-$3 NL game. You read that right...$1-$3! I put my name on the list and soon found out what the excitement was about. An older guy (I can not use gentleman as you will see) had a rack of black ($10,000) on the table. Every flop cost a handful of chips. I say handful because this was how he determined the bet. He would reach into his pile (and I mean pile) of chips and threw what he had...but always making sure a black chip was included. If you wanted to see the turn it cost between $300 - $1,000 (all-in for all but 1 player).Quick analysis on the old guy (OG). He was wearing a tank top and was VERY drunk and disorderly. Definitely not the target client for the Wynn. Upon further review I noticed a huge growth on his neck...about the size of grapefruit. It is my analysis that this man was possibly making his last run on life. He definitely wanted attention as he tried to grab attention.One hand I saw and would not have believed without seeing myself. He put a guy all in with 6 3 offsuit vs. AK. The flop was 6 6 3 in that order. I know that pre-flop AK is not much if you don't hit the flop...but 6 6 3?Finally the second stack takes a few legs out on good hands and strikes the final blow with AA vs. QQ for somewhere in the $5,000 - $7,000 range.The OG then proceeds to make a scene when he could not get a marker for more money. He left and came back with 2 racks of black ($20,000). At this time I make it into the game only to see the guy leave 2 hands later. I was in perfect location (2 to his right). This goes beyond typical logic for locations, but it allowed me to isolate heads up if I chose. You don't want to call a huge raise if you get 2+ callers. We could argue this strategy at another time...not the point of this post.Eventually this guy returned to the tables and shortly after got out of control and was hauled out of the casino by security.Here is my questions/dilema that I discussed with others after the incident:Would you join this table and take advantage of the situation?Do your morales separate desperation from ignorance and/or innebriation?My initial reaction was that this guy was going to give away his money and I wanted to get some. After more reflection I believe this was a situation where I would prefer not to take advantage of this individual. My best analogy was taking a gift presented by someone not of sound mind. A mentally challenged person trying to give you $10,ooo cash on the street. Whould you take it?FYI...in my opinion, the Wynn should not have allowed the situation to play all the way out like it did.

[dna4ever 2]

is there no max buyin at this game? who buys in with 2 stacks of high society at a 1/3 game?

[No_Neck 0]

someone is going to take his money, it might as well be you.

[iveyfan30 0]

if you are asking wether or not you should take his money, the answer is yes...if you dont, somebody else will...it's not like you not winning will discourage him from playing....as long as he is at the table, he is fair game...

[Royal_Tour 0]

is there no max buyin at this game? who buys in with 2 stacks of high society at a 1/3 game?

No. no max buy in!!OH MY GOD I JUST WET MYSELF!!!I played the NL tables at the Wynn.. such a joke DCsports and myself tripled our buy-in within the hour.DEAR GOD. I wish i was there!!!

[AgroPoker 0]

is there no max buyin at this game? who buys in with 2 stacks of high society at a 1/3 game?

Yes, no max buyin at Wynn NL games.

[mclark340 0]

Iveyfan - that was my first answer to my critics. Then I realized that his losing the money was not the only perspective to consider. How about looking yourself in the face later? It goes back to my analogy...just because someone offers you money does not mean you should take it.While I keep defening the "higher ground" I am still not comfortable with my answer. I know that put in that situation again with pocket Aces I would go all in and get as much of that stack as I can.I am not sure I could walk away from a table like this.

[mclark340 0]

As for the buy-in at the Wynn...not only no max, but plenty of money at the $2-$5 to last. Plenty of $2,000+ stacks walking in (not accrued).I was able to double/triple up within 2-4 hours on all but two sessions (4 out of 6). The problem was the craps tables are near the elevator and acted like a vacuum on my wallet.

[JaysonWeber 0]

I'd look myself in the mirror later, w/ a few black chips in my hand and I would smile. For I won in poker, and it was good...

[flyingmachine 0]

I wouldn't have a problem taking this guy's money.

[kouta43 0]

it depends why you play poker- for money or for fun- i assume both, but if your first aim is to make money of course you sit and play, if your aim is to have a good time its up to you as to whether you would enjoy taking his money- some people would and some wouldnt.Personally, i now play poker for money first and fun second so i would be at the table at an instant

[RCarr52013 0]

Iveyfan - that was my first answer to my critics. Then I realized that his losing the money was not the only perspective to consider. How about looking yourself in the face later? It goes back to my analogy...just because someone offers you money does not mean you should take it.While I keep defening the "higher ground" I am still not comfortable with my answer. I know that put in that situation again with pocket Aces I would go all in and get as much of that stack as I can.I am not sure I could walk away from a table like this.

I don't think you can compare playing this guy in poker and POSSIBLY take his money vs. taking 10G's from a mentally handicapped person. The OG isn't "giving" you his money, he is just gambling and in your opinion(and mine) he is gambling poorly. You are assuming he has other issues then just being drunk, but do you think he would feel bad about taking your money if you did lose to him. I have felt bad for people playing stupid before at casinos, but I didn't force them to sit down and play with me.......

[minorityreport 0]

Your good conscience is admirable, and you should always be aware of right and wrong. I applaud you. But it's not wrong to take this guy's money for that is the way of poker.Doctor's don't get squeamish over blood, and poker player's shouldn't let ethical dillemas cloud their decisions. It's like reverse-tilting to walk away from opportunities like the one you described.

[iveyfan30 0]

if you were following this guy out into the parking lot and kicking his ass for the money then yes it would be wrong...this guy is there to gamble regardless of what is going on his life. he would have no prob taking your money, you shouldnt have any taking his ......if you do, then maybe you need to rethink playing poker...if you play for fun only then walk away from the table when you dont feel comfortable....if you play for money, then you defenitley need to wake up...

[keith crime 8]

I've seen these situation on smaller levels - i guess if i played for a living i wouldnt care In those cases i tried hard to take the guys money but was disgusted with the whole situation - i'd rather outwit someone then feel like i've dredging up scumi'm not sure legally what wynn or any other casino is allowed to do here clearly if this were blackjack they'd let the guy play but since its poker i'd hope they;d bar him from playing - but i don't know if this is legal - after all it could theoretically be an acti was at trumps once and they wouldn't let a guy order any more beer - neverthe less it was apparently ok that he kept on gambling

[Garn 0]

all is fair. he is just gambling and you are gambling too. I would def. do it but some people would flip out if he raised it $2,000 w/ 7-2 and won against your AK. Just be prepared for some badbeats

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

OP

I put my name on the list and soon found out what the excitement was about.

Tell me again about guilt and morality ??

[Allie 0]

Here is my questions/dilema that I discussed with others after the incident:Would you join this table and take advantage of the situation?Do your morales separate desperation from ignorance and/or innebriation?

I consider myself a moral person....but yes I would get in this game. If this guy can buy in for racks of black, I'd have to assume he's not on his case money....and he is creating an advantage for himself by having the deepest stack at the table....he might look ignorant or drunk, but he's fully prepared to give himself an edge by buying in for more than probably everyone else can afford at that table....so he's not an underdog from that angle. Playing wild and loose, with junk cards like the 63o...he can still win with those hands, as he did against the AK....yes, in the long run he will lose, but in the short term he can and did bust other people at the table....with no moral qualms I'm sure. In other words....he created a big stack for himself and was fully prepared to bust anyone at that table....so to me...no moral dilema about taking his money.

[rog 0]

He's there to gamble with his money. It's not your job to judge wether he's right or wrong to do so. It may be the casino's job, and you could possibly fault them for allowing this to happen. If this was your home game, I might see it differently, but you're a patron just like him. It's not his business where your stack came from or why/how you're playing it is it?

[mclark340 0]

I appreciate all of the responses and am starting to move to the "other side".I guess my analogy was a bit flawed.I like the point ROG brought about who the gatekeeper should be (casino not me).FYI...at the time I clawed my way into the game to then see the guy leave the table within 5 minutes.

[Socko669 0]

If there was a nine year old kid with terminal cancer from the Make a Wish Foundation at my table I would bust him without batting an eye. The card table is no place for emotion...

[GWCGWC 83]

It's hard for me to wrap my head around the situation that you have described.Is there a difference between this guy and some fish that sits down and doesn't know how to play poker. Aside from the super deep stack he brings to the table, I just don't see a difference. He is putting his money into play. So am I, and I hope varience doesn't kick in. Table selection is key and it sounds like you had a golden opportunity.I like to be nice to the fish, say nice hand and hope they rebuy when they run out of chips. I also like to be subtle when I suggest they have at least 6 more hours before their wife gives birth to there first baby. Labor takes a long time. So, relax and play a little poker. 8)

[blueodum 0]

The closest I've come to this situation is sitting at Party 1/2 limit with a maniac several months ago.This guy would call with almost every hand all the way to the river. He lost 13 $25 buy-ins while I was at the table; he could have lost many more before or after. If I had not had other committments, I would have stayed until he left. It really wasn't important to me why he was doing it; I had no problem making $100 at that table at his expense.If you're serious about playing poker for money, the attitiude you need to have is - everyone at the table is playing to take your money and you're playing to take everyone else's.

[Entrepeneur 0]

Judgement call.But..everybody is certainly right...You not taking his money will not stop someone else from taking his money.As for the casino..they reserve the right to not allow any person into their casino for ANY reason, so they could ask him to leave.Probability is that it was attracting a lot of attention and there is always a rake involved.At some point though, they did remove him, but only when he was apparently too disruptive to other patrons.If you sit at the table, you are fair game.

[MarkACE 0]

I am sure I will get several people who will just laugh at me...but I do ask that all of you take a minute to let this situation sink in.I was at the Wynn this weekend playing some poker when the following happened:I walk into the poker room at 7am to see a crowd around the HUGE $1-$3 NL game.  You read that right...$1-$3!  I put my name on the list and soon found out what the excitement was about.  An older guy (I can not use gentleman as you will see) had a rack of black ($10,000) on the table.  Every flop cost a handful of chips.  I say handful because this was how he determined the bet.  He would reach into his pile (and I mean pile) of chips and threw what he had...but always making sure a black chip was included.  If you wanted to see the turn it cost between $300 - $1,000 (all-in for all but 1 player).Quick analysis on the old guy (OG).  He was wearing a tank top and was VERY drunk and disorderly.  Definitely not the target client for the Wynn.  Upon further review I noticed a huge growth on his neck...about the size of grapefruit.  It is my analysis that this man was possibly making his last run on life.  He definitely wanted attention as he tried to grab attention.One hand I saw and would not have believed without seeing myself.  He put a guy all in with 6 3 offsuit vs. AK.  The flop was 6 6 3 in that order.  I know that pre-flop AK is not much if you don't hit the flop...but 6 6 3?Finally the second stack takes a few legs out on good hands and strikes the final blow with AA vs. QQ for somewhere in the $5,000 - $7,000 range.The OG then proceeds to make a scene when he could not get a marker for more money.  He left and came back with 2 racks of black ($20,000).  At this time I make it into the game only to see the guy leave 2 hands later.  I was in perfect location (2 to his right).  This goes beyond typical logic for locations, but it allowed me to isolate heads up if I chose.  You don't want to call a huge raise if you get 2+ callers.  We could argue this strategy at another time...not the point of this post.Eventually this guy returned to the tables and shortly after got out of control and was hauled out of the casino by security.Here is my questions/dilema that I discussed with others after the incident:Would you join this table and take advantage of the situation?Do your morales separate desperation from ignorance and/or innebriation?My initial reaction was that this guy was going to give away his money and I wanted to get some.  After more reflection I believe this was a situation where I would prefer not to take advantage of this individual.  My best analogy was taking a gift presented by someone not of sound mind.  A mentally challenged person trying to give you $10,ooo cash on the street.  Whould you take it?FYI...in my opinion, the Wynn should not have allowed the situation to play all the way out like it did.

These situations actually piss me off a little... If I could I would take his money then smack him over his head with it when I'm done. If he wants to treat money like garbage why not pick up his trash???