emineric 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 from german poker player 50 outs, http://50outs.blogs.com/poker/Speaking of the rare suckouts that I inflict there was a very good one. Let me tell the story. It was the $1500 WSOP limit holdem shoutout event. I had seat no. 4, in seat no. 6 was englishmen Garry Bush and in seat no. 2 was Barry Greenstein. Yes that Barry Greenstein that is playing in the highest games available and doing the open-challenge games against Daniel Negreanu. When the first players busted out including seat no. 3 I was sitting right next to Barry. I have never talked to Barry before although I have seen him on many of our travels. I was unsure about if I like the guy or not. Reading some of his material he comes around pretty arrogant at times although I feel that nobody has that much respect both in the recpoker and the 2+2 community like him (well, except Doyle Brunson and Phil Ivey, both have never posted as far as I know). Anyway, he had a draft of his new book "Ace on the river" which I browsed shortly. It was looking nice but what impressed me more was the 2 hours talk that we had there. I won't go into any details here but it included the challenge matches and poker, both high stakes and tournament wise. I found that I actually like the guy very much and got confirmed some of my thoughts about how to approach the game and the poker lifestyle in general. I was impressed when Barry told me he learned german and russian just to be able to read the right learning material for his studies when he was younger. You know how difficult german and russian are? If you my dear reader are the typical american "english only" guy then you have no idea - how to play AQ in a raised pot is a piece of cake, compared ;)Ok I got carried away a little. My suckout. It went down like this. 6 players left, I was UTG with Barry in the BB. I found AK of diamonds and raised right away (limit!), I guess the limit was 100-200 at that time. Everybody folded (Garry Bush had a very bad tournament, he was card dead the whole time) and Barry called. Flop came down K-7-3, one diamond. Perfect I thought. Barry checked, I bet, pretty sure to take it down right there. Well, Barry raised me! Honestly I gave no credit to that raise, I watched him changing gears to perfection before and thought he was trying to outplay me. I re-raised. He re-popped it to 4 bets and I still gave him no credit. Wouldn't I do the very same? (Well actually not until I play 100-200 cash game or higher). The turn was an ace and I almost feared to get no more action on my hand now but boy was I wrong! He check-raised me, I re-raised. Think of my surprise when he 4 bet me on the turn! I remember my surprise very sharp. Now comes the problem, I simply got carried away. Instead of going onto the tank and re-think the whole hand I simply re-raised and got called. The river brought another ace, giving me a full house. Barry checked and I throwed out a bet. Now think of that: Barry said "well, I hit the flop myself pretty nice", showed KK (!) and mucked his hand without calling my bet. Think of this! Throwing away your kings-full for one single bet in limit holdem on the river. How damn sure was the guy about my holding and how damn correct was he! I was serious embarrased. Barry never recovered from that and went out in 5th place, I myself made also no good use of those chips and was eliminated in 3rd spot. I apologized to Barry when he left about that suckout and he simply said "oh no problem" in a way that sounded like he already forgot about the hand - and I believed him. What a great lection I got there. Again, in case you read here Barry, sorry for the suckout. In my analysis now I am pretty sure that I should have folded on the turn when Barry 4-betted me. Ahhh, a lot to learn. Still. Link to post Share on other sites
DaBruins 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 interesting read. Thanks.And of course, great fold. Yeah Barry would have lost there to any A3, A7, and AK, and of course he played the hand exactly like he had AK, but in limit hold em its always tempting to call on the river because folding will cost you the entire pot where as a call will just cost you 1 big bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Oziumrules 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Barry is looking to start a fan club....maybe you can help run it? Link to post Share on other sites
hoosierAKs 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 A lot of people would have played 77 the exact same way, REFUSING to put Barry on KK or AA after he didn't 3-bet preflop, and betting the river after Barry checks it... and this would have made Barry's fold atrocious.From Barry's side, the AK guy only needs to have less than A's full 1 time out of 14.5 for a call there to be correct.This just makes the laydown that much better, since I obviously have no trouble believing that Barry Greenstein can make a read and be that confident that he's correct about it, and actually BE correct about it... but if someone posted this hand in strat asking about their laydown, I'd tell 'em it was stupid :-) Link to post Share on other sites
SapphireTiger 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Barry is looking to start a fan club....maybe you can help run it?dont' be an ass Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckSty 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 A lot of people would have played 77 the exact same way, REFUSING to put Barry on KK or AA after he didn't 3-bet preflop, and betting the river after Barry checks it... and this would have ade Barry's fold atrocious.From Barry's side, the AK guy only needs to have less than A's full 1 time out of 14.5 for a call there to be correct.This just makes the laydown that much better, since I obviously have no trouble believing that Barry Greenstein can make a read and be that confident that he's correct about it, and actually BE correct about it... but if someone posted this hand in strat asking about their laydown, I'd tell 'em it was stupid :-)isn't that the truth Link to post Share on other sites
elaear 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 wait, so did he have the nuts or did he have the 2nd nuts and the nuts were impossible? Link to post Share on other sites
LuckyMcCatcher 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 he had nuts until turn. Link to post Share on other sites
hoosierAKs 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I think he's talking about the AK guy.He had the nuts... yes of course technically AA (impossible like you said) is better on that board, but since it's impossible, you don't call AK the second nuts...any unbeatable hand is the nuts. Link to post Share on other sites
brian67 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Pretty impressive, but he is one of the best limit players in the world. This probably wasn't even uncommon for him, you have to be able to make huge laydowns to play at that level. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Am I the only one who wonders why Barry didn't re-raise PF? Link to post Share on other sites
hoosierAKs 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Am I the only one who wonders why Barry didn't re-raise PF?Disguise his hand, save money if an A flops, and mix up his playHe already had the pot heads up so he didn't need to eliminate any players, so he figured this would be a good time to disguise a KK with a call instead of a 3-bet.Obviously, it worked. Link to post Share on other sites
TakeYourClay 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 IU represent. Current student? Link to post Share on other sites
Pokerghost2 0 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 that is a ridiculous laydown. completely sick, i have to at least call there. then again im not bg Link to post Share on other sites
Egarim 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Awesome laydown. Something I would never do online since I can't see the guy's face or anything. Even in real life I would've called that 99.9% of the time just in case. I wouldn't believe the other guy had my case k and caught runner runner aces to make aces full of kings. That's just sick. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Barry's fold on the river was just bad....You could have flopped a set of 7's and been betting it the same way......you must be a tell bag that barry read that much strength in you....then again...it is Barry G... Link to post Share on other sites
emineric 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 i guess it begs the question, how often in his high stakes poker career has barry been wrong? hopefully less than 1-18 as that was about his odds on a river call here. would barry fold a $150k pot for one 8k bet on the river? my guess is most definately.if someone made a laydown like this against me online and showed, i'd either leave the table because i had just been owned, or make him a buddy because this guy is clearly an idiot. Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Considering that this was their first time playing together, i can't imagine anyone making that kind of a lay down.It leads me to believe that the story isn't 100% true. Link to post Share on other sites
bsabres81 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Barry G probably had his opponent on AK on the flop, though I believe he thought his opponent caught up and made three aces. He would have to think no one could play AK that strongly into Barry's obvious set, especially on the turn. It seems impossible that someone could misplay their hand this badly. What the hell does he think BG has? K7? 73 of diamonds? BG knows he has at least top two pair here. I do agree with those who say a call is correct on the off chance the German has three sevens. Link to post Share on other sites
SabaAba 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 That's the reason none of you are pros.This is a tournament, were that big bet was worth folding. If this was a cash game, then a call might be correct depending on your prior experience with the guy, however, when you play 4,000 - 8,000 and only win 1 BB an hour, do you think calling here only to loose is worth an hour of your time?Anyway, I think it was a good laydown that I would not have made. I would have known you had AK by the way the hand was played, but I am not good enough to fold there.Well played BG Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 That's the reason none of you are pros.This is a tournament, were that big bet was worth folding. If this was a cash game, then a call might be correct depending on your prior experience with the guy, however, when you play 4,000 - 8,000 and only win 1 BB an hour, do you think calling here only to loose is worth an hour of your time?Anyway, I think it was a good laydown that I would not have made. I would have known you had AK by the way the hand was played, but I am not good enough to fold there.Well played BGOr bad enough to fold......The guy could have easily had 777....you must pay that one bet....It is really not much of a debate....The funny thing is that you are saying this because you KNOW THE RESULT...Just for kicks...what would you be saying if the OP said that he had 777, and Barry G layed down the winner?Would you be saying that it was a great laydown? I would bet everything I own that you would not. Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 That's the reason none of you are pros.This is a tournament, were that big bet was worth folding. If this was a cash game, then a call might be correct depending on your prior experience with the guyThere's never a situation where this is a fold unless you have an incredibly strong read on the opponent, and even then it's still a call absent of psychic powers.I don't think this story is entirely accurate.I could be wrong though. Maybe BG does have psychic powers.when you play 4,000 - 8,000 and only win 1 BB an hour, do you think calling here only to loose is worth an hour of your time?And folding here could be the difference between winning that 1BB for the hour and losing 12. Link to post Share on other sites
Pokerghost2 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 without psychic powers or seeing the guys down cards u dont ever ever make that fold in a cash game same scenario. Link to post Share on other sites
TraptSteve 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 I've layed down a set of Queens on a board of :Spade ,Q of spades blankturn - spade.opponent was first to act and moved all in. I folded. Link to post Share on other sites
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