what would you have done? (nl mtt)

[PrtyPSux 0]

I have decided to quit small regular PartyPoker tournaments (I still might play the big ones) because I find it too often that I end up making a mistake becaus of my chipstack and the size of the blinds. I know that I will still be in this position in other better structured tournaments so I will post this hand.I have 1k in chips and the blinds are up to 25/50 with 600 people left in a $20 MTT. table seems like the loose passive type.I get QQ on the buttonMP1 who has a 1050ish stack raises to $175, everyone folds to me...what now? you cant reraise w/ out ending up shortstack and semi commited to the pot on the flop, you cant call and let A10s catch, and if you push all in you will probably just win $250 in chips and continue to be below Avg. I decide to raise it to $400, blinds fold dude calls pot is now $875 and I have $600 left.The flop coms A, 8, 5 rainbowMP1 checksNow? a continuation bet would have to be all in, if I check he's likely to bet out on the turn. I decide to checkturn comes Jhe bets $250, A very small bet relative to the size of the pot. Now i'm being offered about 3.5 to one for my money, Is just calling an option at this point? I dont think so. What about pushing? Im getting about 2 to 1 if I push. Last one is to fold and wait for a better spot to push...which is best?I think I really butchered this hand, but Im not sure as to what the play is in this type of situation.

[rbakken2504 0]

I think you should've pushed preflop, you'd either take down the pot there, 250 is a good amount of chips to add to your 1000 stack, or you'd get a call from someone and more than likely be a pretty strong favorite. Either that or do what you did, and be left with a flop of agony (when the ace hit), then try to figure out if he has an ace or not.You should've made a feeler bet on the flop to help you with your read, as well.

[PrtyPSux 0]

I think you should've pushed preflop, you'd either take down the pot there, 250 is a good amount of chips to add to your 1000 stack, or you'd get a call from someone and more than likely be a pretty strong favorite. Either that or do what you did, and be left with a flop of agony (when the ace hit), then try to figure out if he has an ace or not.You should've made a feeler bet on the flop to help you with your read, as well.

I cant make a feeler bet though, thats why Its hard to play this short stacked post flop, a feeler bet leaves me w/ 300 left.

[cbiscuit20 0]

just push preflop

[strategy 4]

If you call the raise preflop, you have to lead out at the flop like your QQ is the best hand, pretty much regardless of what hits. AKx being the obvious exception. That said, I wouldn't call the raise preflop. I would jam and pray he's got AK or a smaller pair.The tournaments move too fast to lay down a big pair.

[screech 0]

I think how you play preflop determines your action on the flop. You can either go all-in, raise a small amount, or just flat call with position.If you go all-in, there are only two hands that have you beat PF. AK will also probably call, maybe AQ, and JJ-TT. You don't have to make any difficult decisions post flop, and you could win a lot of money by doubling up. Chances are your opponent will fold, and you will take the 250, which is not a bad result. All-in is not a bad play.If you reraise a small amount, you are doing so with two intentions:1) Folding if an ace or king comes on the flop (uggghhh)2) Pushing all-in on the flop regardless of the board1) is terrible (although it's a lot better if the blinds just hit the 25/50 stage). You may let a hand like JJ, TT, KQ push you off the hand if an ace hits, and now your only gonna have about 500 chips. You're gonna have to get real lucky from here on out, and you probably won't find a better situation than the one you let go this hand.2) is better. You don't let your opponent push you off any hands. You give hands like KQ and AJ to put money in PF, and then fold the flop if their hand does not hit. Of course, you also give these hands a cheap chance to outdraw you, but you can't let a scare card dissuade you from pushing in on the flop, since this was the only real option you had after your preflop move. You could just call the flop, and re-evaluate after the flop. This is a safe play, and lets you get away from the hand with no regrets if things turn sour. If no overs come, you'll still win a lot of money from JJ and TT, and still go broke against KK or AA. All three options have their benefits, and the best play will usually depend on several outside factors, such as how you feel you stack up against most of the players, how you play with a short stack, etc. The play I would choose would probably be to raise to 450 - 500 and then push on the flop regardless of what comes. AA and KK will still knock you out, JJ and TT will still probably call, but since you know you will be going all in on the flop, you are getting more action from hands you have crushed like AJ and KQ.

[Rocketwadster 0]

You have an okay M right now, but if you don't improve by the next level, it will be in trouble. Your raise of $400 has you pot committed, so you may as well have pushed it all in pre-flop. Your only real options IMO are to just call the raise, and if re-raised after you, go all-in, OR go all-in yourself pre-flop.Since you played it a different way, you needed to bet about 1/2 the pot on the flop, which would still give you a chance to fold (if you so choosed) to a raise, or if called to hopefulyl check it down if UI. 8)

[mk 11]

harrington goes through an example similar to this. i don't have the book with me, but here are the things you should be thinking about: if we push, what hands are calling? AA, KK, and AK. against those hands, we're 41.2% to win. 16 AK combos, against which we're ~57%, 6 each AA & KK combos (12 total) against which we're 20%.so 41.2% of the time our EV is +2075and 58.8% of time our EV is 0for an EV of 854.9if we push and he folds, our EV is obviously 1250.starting from our original stack of 1000, we see that if he calls we lose about 150 and if he folds we make about 250. that means he has to fold 40% of the time for pushing to be +EV. with your stack size, i like calling and letting the flop dictate the action.as a side note, this is a great example of why paying extremely close attention to every hand early in a mtt is so important. you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4.re-raising a small amount is the worst play here because of your stack size. you're now pot-committed and you have no fold equity preflop.if you had a larger stack, a re-raise would be the correct play. someone holding AK would be making a mistake calling your raise. do you see why? three words: reverse implied odds.

[Rocketwadster 0]

harrington goes through an example similar to this. i don't have the book with me, but here are the things you should be thinking about: if we push, what hands are calling? AA, KK, and AK. against those hands, we're 41.2% to win. 16 AK combos, against which we're ~57%, 6 each AA & KK combos (12 total) against which we're 20%.so 41.2% of the time our EV is +2075and 58.8% of time our EV is 0for an EV of 854.9if we push and he folds, our EV is obviously 1250.starting from our original stack of 1000, we see that if he calls we lose about 150 and if he folds we make about 250. that means he has to fold 40% of the time for pushing to be +EV. with your stack size, i like calling and letting the flop dictate the action.as a side note, this is a great example of why paying extremely close attention to every hand early in a mtt is so important. you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4.re-raising a small amount is the worst play here because of your stack size. you're now pot-committed and you have no fold equity preflop.if you had a larger stack, a re-raise would be the correct play. someone holding AK would be making a mistake calling your raise. do you see why? three words: reverse implied odds.

Harrington couldn't have explained it better. 8)

[mk 11]

Harrington couldn't have explained it better. lol. paul phillips is the one i actually learned this type of stuff from first. then harrington had to go and tell the whole world. :?

[strategy 4]

you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4.

A large majority of the time, this is just not possible on partypoker or really in any MTT online. Also, I think harrington's analysis of the situation is wrong for this problem. It's right if you have a deep stack and plenty of time. Your 1000 starting chips become 10BBs in a very short amount of time in Party MTTs. You can't afford to see a flop and muck QQ at any stage in those tournaments.Yes, indeed it is one of those situations where normally if we get called, we're slightly ahead or way behind, but my experience with party MTTs is that you would get called by AQ, JJ, TT, 99, and maybe even AJ in addition to AA, KK, and AK (if you were to push).

[Rocketwadster 0]

you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4.

A large majority of the time, this is just not possible on partypoker or really in any MTT online. Also, I think harrington's analysis of the situation is wrong for this problem. It's right if you have a deep stack and plenty of time. Your 1000 starting chips become 10BBs in a very short amount of time in Party MTTs. You can't afford to see a flop and muck QQ at any stage in those tournaments.Yes, indeed it is one of those situations where normally if we get called, we're slightly ahead or way behind, but my experience with party MTTs is that you would get called by AQ, JJ, TT, 99, and maybe even AJ in addition to AA, KK, and AK (if you were to push).

Harrington's analysis of the situation is wrong for this problem - IMPOSSIBLE :!: How can he possibly be wrong? It is based on the math alone, is not muddled by "reads", "feels" or anything else. You WANT all of the hands you listed to call you whenyou push...do you not see that? 8)

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I say push it in preflop. You don't have enough to make a better raise than 400, then push. It's true that you may be way behind, but you can also be way ahead. If you call you put yourself in the position to lose the pot and be short stacked if an ace or king hits. If it doesn't with 800 in the pot and 600 left, you are probably pushing it in anyway. If they have a big pair you'll be in the same boat as you were pre flop, either way ahead or way behind. Maybe this will help slightly...it's not the same thing but I hink you can take some pieces from it.http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...4836&m_id=65567I say push preflop

[strategy 4]

Harrington's analysis of the situation is wrong for this problem - IMPOSSIBLE :!: How can he possibly be wrong? It is based on the math alone, is not muddled by "reads", "feels" or anything else. You WANT all of the hands you listed to call you whenyou push...do you not see that? 8)

I left off the quote. My mistake. Harrington's reasoning is correct, it's just being applied to the wrong problem. That's what I meant by: "Also, I think harrington's analysis of the situation is wrong for this problem." Bad wording, I guess?

[bdams19 0]

I think you have to push no matter what. Preferably pf when you know you have the best of it, but if he's checking to you then betting weak and you can't fold there isn't too much to do.

[MrConceit 0]

harrington goes through an example similar to this. i don't have the book with me, but here are the things you should be thinking about: if we push, what hands are calling? AA, KK, and AK. against those hands, we're 41.2% to win. 16 AK combos, against which we're ~57%, 6 each AA & KK combos (12 total) against which we're 20%.so 41.2% of the time our EV is +2075and 58.8% of time our EV is 0for an EV of 854.9if we push and he folds, our EV is obviously 1250.starting from our original stack of 1000, we see that if he calls we lose about 150 and if he folds we make about 250. that means he has to fold 40% of the time for pushing to be +EV. with your stack size, i like calling and letting the flop dictate the action.as a side note, this is a great example of why paying extremely close attention to every hand early in a mtt is so important. you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4.re-raising a small amount is the worst play here because of your stack size. you're now pot-committed and you have no fold equity preflop.if you had a larger stack, a re-raise would be the correct play. someone holding AK would be making a mistake calling your raise. do you see why? three words: reverse implied odds.

This post is worded nicely, reasoned nicely, and is ridiculously off in typical party tourneys, especially 20s. Somebody else said something similar, but...You will get called by a ridiculously larger range of hands than just AK/AA/KK. The range of hands increases directly proportional to the size of the initial raisers stack.You could get called by AK-AT easily, any suited ace if the guy is a moron, which there are a lot of. PP's down to 99 for sure, and down to 55 depending if it's the "gambling" type, who deludes himself into thinking any raise means 2 overcards and he's likely a slight favorite, so let's gamble. Also possible are the even worse (in a way) calls by KQ and KJ (suited or not).I tend to play a really fast game, and wouldn't think a second before pushing here. If you only get the blinds and his raise, so what, that's a solid plus to your current stack. And so so often you'll get a race or far better for the chance to double up.Obviously you don't have to play this fast if you have a bigger stack, but you have only 20 big blinds, and the next level will put you in definite jeopardy of needing to double pretty soon.It's not the harrington's reasoning that's off, it's the range of hand assumptions that's off here.

[mk 11]

mk wrote: you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4. A large majority of the time, this is just not possible on partypoker or really in any MTT online. Then you aren't paying close enough attention to anything other than your own cards. Regarding the villian:How many hands has he played?What types of hands does he open with?From EP? MP? LP?Does he limp often or always come in for a raise?What kinds of hands has he shown down?Unless you've been moved around a bunch, you should be able to answer these questions for every single player at your table by level 4.

[strategy 4]

mk wrote: you absolutely MUST have a read on this player by level 4. A large majority of the time, this is just not possible on partypoker or really in any MTT online. Then you aren't paying close enough attention to anything other than your own cards. Regarding the villian:How many hands has he played?What types of hands does he open with?From EP? MP? LP?Does he limp often or always come in for a raise?What kinds of hands has he shown down?Unless you've been moved around a bunch, you should be able to answer these questions for every single player at your table by level 4.

Not only do you get moved around a lot, people are eliminated at a ridiculous rate. I like that you jumped to the conclusion that I don't pay attention. It's not the case--the table changes so fast that you rarely have enough time to take advantage of any errors you see players making. It gets even worse in the later stages of the tournament, when your table breaks multiple times in the last hour and you're introduced to a large number of opponents. It is possible some of the time, but it's not at all common in my experience. Note how I said "a large majority of the time." Not always.

[case ace 0]

Harrington couldn't have explained it better. lol. paul phillips is the one i actually learned this type of stuff from first. then harrington had to go and tell the whole world. :?

your post was very eloquent, but i will add. online mttyou will get called by alot of inferior hand (aq,aj,jj,10,10, 89 suited cause its their favorite hand, or they had a feeling, or even thought they had over cards. The fish factor boosts the +ev of this quite a bit higher

[Rocketwadster 0]

If anyone is still doubting the +EV of going all-in pre-flop here, please read Harrington on Holdem, Volume 2, page 162 and up (Structured Hand Analysis), which details the math of just such a situation. It is way to extensive for me to simply retype. mk basically explained the gist of it in his one post above, but people were questioning the range of hands that he listed would call. You can simply add all of the other hands that you would like to his list, which will only make the +EV even higher. 8)

[strategy 4]

If anyone is still doubting the +EV of going all-in pre-flop here, please read Harrington on Holdem, Volume 2, page 162 and up (Structured Hand Analysis), which details the math of just such a situation. It is way to extensive for me to simply retype. mk basically explained the gist of it in his one post above, but people were questioning the range of hands that he listed would call. You can simply add all of the other hands that you would like to his list, which will only make the +EV even higher. 8)

He advocated just calling, because he said only AK, KK, and AA would call your raise. That's what he meant when he said, "starting from our original stack of 1000, we see that if he calls we lose about 150 and if he folds we make about 250. that means he has to fold 40% of the time for pushing to be +EV. with your stack size, i like calling and letting the flop dictate the action. "I don't think he's conceded that the range he gave was too small.

[mk 11]

I don't think he's conceded that the range he gave was too small.This is why I stressed the importance of the read. It determines the range you put your opponent on (obviously). The range I gave in my initial post assumes we have no read, and therefore we have to assume the player isn't a donkey. Now, if we've watched this player the entire tournament and have concluded he is a classic party donk, then sure, let's extend the range that will call. Let's say he'll call with:(AA-77) (AK-AT)Against this range, QQ is 64.6% to win, giving an EV of 1340.45and again, if we push and he folds, our EV is 1250.So if the range of hands that will call is this wide, we want to push and we want to be called. If our read is strong, then it would be foolish to pass up a situation that is so +EV. But what this problem comes down to (if you have no read) is the question of whether or not you think you are one of the best players in the tournament. If you feel you are one of the best players in the tournament, and your stack isn't under pressure yet, you should not be willing to go broke with QQ all-in pf before the first break. The only hand you should be willing to go broke with all-in pf before the first break (absent a read) is AA. You pass up bets that are marginally +EV for later bets that are much greater +EV.

[strategy 4]

But what this problem comes down to (if you have no read) is the question of whether or not you think you are one of the best players in the tournament. If you feel you are one of the best players in the tournament, and your stack isn't under pressure yet, you should not be willing to go broke with QQ all-in pf before the first break. The only hand you should be willing to go broke with all-in pf before the first break (absent a read) is AA. You pass up bets that are marginally +EV for later bets that are much greater +EV.

Ack, and you said you were a paul phillips fan? You're joking, right? This is a PARTY POKER MTT. There's no excuse for folding QQ preflop unless you have some ridiculous tell, like where the person types in all caps before making his bet, "I GOT ROCKETZ." I am beginning to seriously doubt that you have ever played a partypoker MTT.You do know that Paul Phillips also advocates racing on the first hand of a $10k buyin tournament, right?

[mk 11]

There's no excuse for folding QQ preflop unless you have some ridiculous tell, like where the person types in all caps before making his bet, "I GOT ROCKETZ." I am beginning to seriously doubt that you have ever played a partypoker MTT.I probably made more money playing party mtts in May 2005 alone than you will ever make playing poker.

[strategy 4]

I probably made more money playing party mtts in May 2005 alone than you will ever make playing poker.

Ah, I see. Well that assumption definitely qualifies you to dismiss my arguments, then. Well played, sir!