what would you have done? (nl mtt)

[strategy 4]

Seeing as you apparently did not get the gist of my argument, let me elaborate:

But what this problem comes down to (if you have no read) is the question of whether or not you think you are one of the best players in the tournament.

This has NOTHING to do with how you play QQ preflop in a party MTT. Hellmuthian thinking is bad enough in a big buyin tournament. How are we to know if we're the best player in the tournament? Better yet, what good is the best player if he has no chips? It's a ridiculous variable to take into account when holding QQ against a table full of inexperienced opponents. You have to win chips at some point in the tournament, and taking a flop with QQ is not the way to go. It's a terrible play in a $20 tournament.None of what you said should EVER cross your mind in the earlier stages of a $20 tournament.

[mk 11]

Nowhere have I indicated that I'm dismissing your arguments. I worked through the math with a wider range, as you suggested, and then discussed why I don't always like getting my money in with only a 64/36 edge, i.e. because most party tournaments are so weak I like to push harder with larger edges. I didn't mean to sound dismissive at all.But with this:"I am beginning to seriously doubt that you have ever played a partypoker MTT."it's clear that you mean to sound that way.

[mk 11]

None of what you said should EVER cross your mind in the earlier stages of a $20 tournament.I guess that's why I've done so poorly in them. Sigh...

[strategy 4]

Nowhere have I indicated that I'm dismissing your arguments. I worked through the math with a wider range, as you suggested, and then discussed why I don't always like getting my money in with only a 64/36 edge, i.e. because most party tournaments are so weak I like to push harder with larger edges. I didn't mean to sound dismissive at all.But with this:"I am beginning to seriously doubt that you have ever played a partypoker MTT."it's clear that you mean to sound that way.

Well? What do you want me to say? You're out of touch with reality if you think there's a chance you can fold QQ in a party MTT in the early stages, absent some type of read. The "larger edges" don't come around often enough in those tournaments to decline the smaller ones. Here. This should be some kind of education for you about those paltry 64/36 edges. http://tinyurl.com/39a28

[Binbs 0]

I do see your reasoning mk, but I have to agree with strategy that the best move here would be to push all in pre flop. Especially with the kind of opponent that the OP is playing against. QQ is a fragile hand, that I agree with but its still a favorite preflop and the math you cant deny.

[mk 11]

Remember, I have never once advocated folding. Somehow, strategy has turned this discussion into me wanting to fold QQ. That would be ludicrous in this situation. The question is whether to push or call.strategy, you and I obviously play two opposing styles in tournaments. And that's fine. I do well playing a conservative style. You probably do well playing a faster style. The only reason I'm still here defending myself is because it feels like you think I'm definitely wrong for not necessarily wanting to be all-in pf with QQ in the first hour of play. I hope I'm not making it sound like I think it's definitely wrong to push. The fact that I even stop to think in this situation and most others don't is why I make money playing tourneys.

[Binbs 0]

I think both plays are valid.Call or push all in preflop.But just reraising with such a small stack is definately the wrong option here.

[strategy 4]

Remember, I have never once advocated folding. Somehow, strategy has turned this discussion into me wanting to fold QQ. That would be ludicrous in this situation. The question is whether to push or call.

I apologize for saying folding when I meant to say "calling." I had to fire off a response and take care of something in "real life". Replace "folding" with "calling."

strategy, you and I obviously play two opposing styles in tournaments. And that's fine. I do well playing a conservative style. You probably do well playing a faster style. The only reason I'm still here defending myself is because it feels like you think I'm definitely wrong for not necessarily wanting to be all-in pf with QQ in the first hour of play. I hope I'm not making it sound like I think it's definitely wrong to push.

I will concede right now that there are situations in which your line is correct. It is very difficult to accurately have a read on somebody early in a MTT so specific that you can smoothe-call with QQ rather than push in this situation. Think about it! They have to get aces, make the raise, get called, and make it to a showdown, then get aces AGAIN and make the exact same raise in the span of an hour. Those types of situations are so few and far between that one would be giving up very little to auto-push with QQ.

The fact that I even stop to think in this situation and most others don't is why I make money playing tourneys.

I made $3000 in a span of 24 hours playing MTTs with a buyin of less than $50 on party about 6 months ago, using a very conservative style of play. It's possible to make money doing it your way, no doubt. It's just less probable.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

There is only one objectively correct play preflop between "call, push, or make a little biitch re-raise."You have to push because you don't have enough chips to make postflop moves. If you just call to save yourself money to make postflop moves, then you've horribly underplayed the 3rd best possible hand.And if you make a "little-bitch re-raise," you're telling the rest of the table "I may not have a lot of chips right now, but at least I'm hung like a field mouse and can't get all in with premium hands... so everyone should fear my bets! Rawr!"Push when your edge is biggest. The jump between Level 4 and level 5 is quite possibly the trickiest levels to play in a Partypoker MTT, because you go from 25/50 to 50/100 after a break. This is the ONLY blind increase where the level actually DOUBLES. Without a double up you were going to get killed in level 5 anyway, so bust out some Short Stack Power and get it all in the middle with the ladies.And if he calls with A9o and spikes the A, then you still played it right and were way ahead when the money went in.

[strategy 4]

The jump between Level 4 and level 5 is quite possibly the trickiest levels to play in a Partypoker MTT, because you go from 25/50 to 50/100 after a break.

I never noticed this, but yeah I always cringe when I'm UTG and the break is after the hand is over. That seems to happen a disproportionate number of times :lol:I was thinking there was another spot later in the structure where it doubles, but you're right.

[zimmer4141 0]

I think pushing is not the only option, but the best option here. Making a small reraise is the worst possible option besides folding, because you are committing yourself to any flop. There is really no point in seeing a flop because if you push on the flop, you will most likely be beaten if you are called.Example #1: You raise to 400, and get called. Flop is K82. Here, you get Ax to fold, and are called by AK and KQ. Even JJ and 10s fold to you here.I could go on and on with examples, but I won't. The point I am trying to make here is that you lose a lot of value by hands folding when they miss the flop, and you are committed to any flop that has you beat. Out of the 4 options, I will break them down in terms of EV.Folding= bigtime -EVCalling= About moderate EV, little up or down.Small raise= -EVPushing= definite +EV

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Definitely can't fold.Definitely can't just-call (it's QQ, after all).Definitely can't make a little bitch raise because of our stack.Gotta push! See? Easy.

[mk 11]

Think about it! They have to get aces, make the raise, get called, and make it to a showdown, then get aces AGAIN and make the exact same raise in the span of an hour.The biggest variable involved in making your read and putting him on a range here is how many hands he's played so far. He doesn't have to show down aces to make me think he's solid. If he's played two or three hands in 45 minutes, I'm not gonna feel great about pushing here. On the other extreme, if he's playing 2 or 3 pots per orbit, I'll push here 100% of the time.

[strategy 4]

Think about it! They have to get aces, make the raise, get called, and make it to a showdown, then get aces AGAIN and make the exact same raise in the span of an hour.The biggest variable involved in making your read and putting him on a range here is how many hands he's played so far. He doesn't have to show down aces to make me think he's solid. If he's played two or three hands in 45 minutes, I'm not gonna feel great about pushing here.

We don't get to see that many hands in an hour, and you get to see his cards maybe 5% of the time on average. It's hopeless to think that you can get some kind of read on a person in less than an hour that would make calling with QQ pf the right move. He could be a loose player catching some bad cards, you just don't know.This is all assuming that you do get the full hour with the person in the hand. Your table could break, he could be a recent move-in... the odds are against having any significant information on anybody at your table in party MTTs.

[mk 11]

It's hopeless to think that you can get some kind of read on a person in less than an hour...I'm definitely not missing the point. I just disagree with the statement above 100%.

[zimmer4141 0]

I agree that it is tough to get a read. I really have to play ABC poker in the start of tournaments because you can't get a read on anyone. For example, a player may raise big with weak hands like A10 or A9, but so far in the first 45 minutes, he has seen all rags. So when he makes a good sized raise with A9, you would be inclined to put him on a stronger hand than he has. Really, you can play mostly the cards in the first hour. At the second hour and on, you can get a read on people easier, and start to play the player more than the cards.

[strategy 4]

I agree that it is tough to get a read. I really have to play ABC poker in the start of tournaments because you can't get a read on anyone. For example, a player may raise big with weak hands like A10 or A9, but so far in the first 45 minutes, he has seen all rags. So when he makes a good sized raise with A9, you would be inclined to put him on a stronger hand than he has. Really, you can play mostly the cards in the first hour. At the second hour and on, you can get a read on people easier, and start to play the player more than the cards.

I think the elmination rate really does kill any chance of getting a read. Me and mk will just have to agree to disagree, I guess. :-)

[brian67 0]

Wow so many people think there is only one way to play QQ in a MTT. Seeing a flop with QQ is acceptable, but you have to also be able to lay that down, especially when the A hits the board. I think the idea of being pot commited in MTTs is seriously flawed. If you know that you are beat then why would you put your remaining chips in? Especially in this case where you figure you have 2 outs at best, obviously though you don't want to get in the habit of constantly letting yourself become crippled in this way, but sometimes you just have to let the hand go.

[strategy 4]

Wow so many people think there is only one way to play QQ in a MTT. Seeing a flop with QQ is acceptable, but you have to also be able to lay that down, especially when the A hits the board. I think the idea of being pot commited in MTTs is seriously flawed. If you know that you are beat then why would you put your remaining chips in? Especially in this case where you figure you have 2 outs at best, obviously though you don't want to get in the habit of constantly letting yourself become crippled in this way, but sometimes you just have to let the hand go.

There is only one correct way to play QQ in this situation. When we say "You should fold" in these threads, it's assumed that we mean "in this situation." Investing a considerable percentage of your total chips and not getting a showdown is worse than sinking them in when you think you're beat. Professional tournament players wouldn't call off their last few chips when they put most of them in preflop if the concept of "pot committed" were some big hoax.

[brian67 0]

Investing a considerable percentage of your total chips and not getting a showdown is worse than sinking them in when you think you're beat. Professional tournament players wouldn't call off their last few chips when they put most of them in preflop if the concept of "pot committed" were some big hoax.

You basically summed it up right there when you said commiting more chips when you think you're beat. My point is that you are thinking that you are beat at this point. You would be calling off the last of your chips as a severe dog. And not every tournement pro would call of the last of their chips with QQ when an A hit the flop with a preflop raiser. Ax has you beat. In that event it is not unthinkable to salvage what you have and stay in the tourney.

[brian67 0]

And for the record, i don't think "pot commited" is necessarily a hoax, there certainly are times when it applies, but not so much in a situation where you would have to call off the last half of your chips when you have a 2 outer on the river at best.

[strategy 4]

You basically summed it up right there when you said commiting more chips when you think you're beat. My point is that you are thinking that you are beat at this point. You would be calling off the last of your chips as a severe dog.

The problem is that you think you have some way of knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that you are beat without seeing your opponent's hand. Poker isn't like that. You have to use a range of hands, and normally when you put 80% of your chips in the pot, the other 20% HAS to follow regardless of what hits because of the enormous mistake you'd be making if you folded. There are exceptions to the rule (physical tells, for instance, could force you to give up a hand when you're committed), but for all intents and purposes, when you put 1000 chips in the middle preflop and only have 250 left, you can't give up your hand. If you have QQ and the flop is A95, you just can't give your hand up because the pot is so big. You have a WIDE margin for error when you are given 9:1 on your money.

And not every tournement pro would call of the last of their chips with QQ when an A hit the flop with a preflop raiser. Ax has you beat. In that event it is not unthinkable to salvage what you have and stay in the tourney.

I apologize for not specifying. Any winning tournament professional would invest the rest of their money if a large percentage of their chips went in preflop. Not feeling good about investing the chips can't change the fact that mathematically you have to do it.

And for the record, i don't think "pot commited" is necessarily a hoax, there certainly are times when it applies, but not so much in a situation where you would have to call off the last half of your chips when you have a 2 outer on the river at best.

I don't think anybody advised the OP to raise anything less than all in here, if that's what you're referring to.Personally, I like playing against people who use your philosophy. I am very happy when someone folds their T600 big blind leaving themselves T300 to post in the small blind.

[109suited 0]

Dude, I pushed all in after a raise with JJ and a guy called off all his chips with AJ last night in a party poker 30 dollar MTT. You have to push here. You get yourself in such a terrible spot by not pushing. You're going to get called by sooooooooo much garbage here.

[brian67 0]

Personally, I like playing against people who use your philosophy. I am very happy when someone folds their T600 big blind leaving themselves T300 to post in the small blind.

Why would you like playing against people that fold when they are a severe dog? Saying that I would fold similar situations, being as i put them on Ax when i hold QQ with an A on the board is a fair play. If i believe that i am down to hitting one of 2 queens to stay in the tourney with only one card to come i fold. I also thought that it was more like 50% of his stack preflop, which personally i would never do, but yes if it is more than in this case you basically trapped yourself as the player can easily try to push you out whether he hit the flop or not. If you did put over 50% of your stack in with QQ preflop, then yes you should have clearly just gone all in preflop. Even if he does have Ax, make him call you when you have the best hand, not after he hits the A and has you down to 2 outs.

[strategy 4]

Why would you like playing against people that fold when they are a severe dog? Saying that I would fold similar situations, being as i put them on Ax when i hold QQ with an A on the board is a fair play. If i believe that i am down to hitting one of 2 queens to stay in the tourney with only one card to come i fold.

I was making a reference to the common sit and go mistake of mucking a blind to a raise when you've got most of your stack wrapped up in the big blind. It's a nice feeling to take 2/3rd of someone's stack without having a showdown.

I also thought that it was more like 50% of his stack preflop, which personally i would never do, but yes if it is more than in this case you basically trapped yourself as the player can easily try to push you out whether he hit the flop or not. If you did put over 50% of your stack in with QQ preflop, then yes you should have clearly just gone all in preflop. Even if he does have Ax, make him call you when you have the best hand, not after he hits the A and has you down to 2 outs.

The raise was to 175, and the OP had 1000. This is where all of us said the OP made a mistake--he's pretty much married to the hand if he raises and gets called. Save yourself the risk of getting a flop like AKx that could force you off QQ and just jam.