Dhall901 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Did I directlychallenge you? Disrespect you in anyway? Let me check the posts..no i don't think I did. I was just kindly letting you know where I play, if you like to get into a "who's d...ick is bigger" contest, i can send pictures, but if not, relax. The first kid attacked me, so I fired back, let's not turn this into "one of those threads." Leave it to giving the OP comments, if not, pm me and we can see how you feel about it. No thanks, don't really wanna see your d.ick. Keep it to yourself. I never said you attacked me directly, but you did start trying to tell someone how they never get laid and how big of a loser they are. I just pointed out how great of an arguement that is. Because if you know you're wrong but don't want your ego bruised, you should definately attack someone's social status. Then you want me to come "disrespect you on the tables with my money." Hmm, between that and offering to send me a picture of yourself...I think there's laws against that sort of thing....Where does it end? Sorry if I hit home with the loser comments..just spruce yourself up and go to a bar, don't worry about it...she's out there. With all that cash you've got, you're a winner! Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Where does it end? Sorry if I hit home with the loser comments..just spruce yourself up and go to a bar, don't worry about it...she's out there. With all that cash you've got, you're a winner! It doesn't end, you won't go away. You're right, I'm a loser who can't get chicks, you know everything about me. Man you're good. I guess atleast I'm not trying to get a guy to a table to send pictures of my d.ick to him... Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Where does it end? Sorry if I hit home with the loser comments..just spruce yourself up and go to a bar, don't worry about it...she's out there. With all that cash you've got, you're a winner! It doesn't end, you won't go away. You're right, I'm a loser who can't get chicks, you know everything about me. Man you're good. I guess atleast I'm not trying to get a guy to a table to send pictures of my d.ick to him...just workin on my reads man, thanks.. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 just workin on my reads man, thanks.. Just don't try and move all-in on me...the government doesn't like things like that.... Jesus this is why I don't post in General. Link to post Share on other sites
mebogey 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 it seems to me all the "you're gonna win 1/7, 2/8" guys are assuming there will be no more bets post flop...where are you going after the Q56 flop and the 56 and 78 suited guys go at it?the more prudent play would be a limp because with that many players (not sure if it's 7 way or 9 way action...six limpers ecluding the blinds?) AQ is a drawing hand Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 AQ is a drawing hand No, AQ is almost always ahead of all the other hands here. They are drawing on you. Once again I'll ask...if you people are that f'in scared of AQ not holding up...then why don't you just folf PF? If you honestly believe that everytime there's this many people in someone is going to hit 2 pair and a straight, then just fold the damn hand PF and save yourself money. Link to post Share on other sites
jsull 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 I just realized I'd like to play alot of you people for money.AQ is a drawing hand? Link to post Share on other sites
mebogey 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 apparently you assume the table is full of morons (all the more reason to limp methinks)...do you really think with 9 players there isn't ONE pocket pr out there?...lets give one guy A5 suited and another guy QJ...you now have four outs to improve(excluding str8's and flushes)...the lil pr has two...you still like your chances? Link to post Share on other sites
jsull 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 apparently you assume the table is full of morons (all the more reason to limp methinks)...do you really think with 9 players there isn't ONE pocket pr out there?...lets give one guy A5 suited and another guy QJ...you now have four outs to improve(excluding str8's and flushes)...the lil pr has two...you still like your chances?If there's 6 limpers before it gets to me in late position, then yes, I'm going to assume the table is full of morons.Not that this is going to be entirely accurate, but I'm using this as an example, here's an EV chart from pokerroomso using your example hands:AQ has a 4x expected value than A5s and a 10X EV than QJI'll take those odds. Link to post Share on other sites
mebogey 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 there are 6 more starters...i was giving those hands as an example of what you may be up against and how they're affecting your drawing strength Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 there are 6 more starters...i was giving those hands as an example of what you may be up against and how they're affecting your drawing strengthwow, i let this thread go for a night and every moron in the world decides math doesnt matter anymore. let me explain this in a way you can understand:poker is a game of math. the object of the game is to make bets which have a positive expectation. Against 6 random hands, AQo stands to win more than its fair share. That is, it has a positive expectation. IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL ERROR NOT TO RAISE HERE. YOU ARE LOSING MONEY EVERY TIME YOU CHECK. This isnt my personal theory, or a strategy, or something i have 'noticed' in the last 3 sessions i played. It is a mathematically proven FACT. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 there are 6 more starters...i was giving those hands as an example of what you may be up against and how they're affecting your drawing strengthwow, i let this thread go for a night and every moron in the world decides math doesnt matter anymore. let me explain this in a way you can understand:poker is a game of math. the object of the game is to make bets which have a positive expectation. Against 6 random hands, AQo stands to win more than its fair share. That is, it has a positive expectation. IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL ERROR NOT TO RAISE HERE. YOU ARE LOSING MONEY EVERY TIME YOU CHECK. This isnt my personal theory, or a strategy, or something i have 'noticed' in the last 3 sessions i played. It is a mathematically proven FACT. Link to post Share on other sites
UglyJimStudly 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Does AQ offsuit actually play well multi-way? Â You should start keeping track of how many hands you win with AQ offsuit in a multi-way pot, trust me it's not many.I already do. It wins often enough that the raise is +EV for me. Of course, that also means "it's not many", because no hand wins even half the time against six limpers - but the good news is, they don't have to win all that often. Messing around with PokerStove, it looks like so long as at least two of the limpers have random cards, AQo is in pretty good shape. So if you're in a game where five or six of those six limpers probably have good hands, then a limp is looking better than a raise (and a fold is looking better than a limp). In the event that at least two of them have not particularly good hands, then a raise seems to be a good idea, and it gets better as more of them play random cards or any two suited. I myself have never played in the former type of game, and played quite a bit in the latter type, so that's why I raise. If your experience is reversed, then that explains why you'd limp - and should maybe look at folding instead. Link to post Share on other sites
slash 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 AQ is a drawing hand?Against 6 other players, will you assume your AQ high is good if you don't hit the board?I think there are games and places for both plays for any number of the reasons people have enumerated here. What I don't understand is the collective hardon over AQo. It isn't a marginal hand, but it is so frequently overplayed. I love it that way, though.My other question for some of you who say raise every time is whether or not you play hands the same way every time. Is the idea of disguising a hand (not necessarily AQ, but it qualifies in some instances) completely lost on you? How about varying your play? Do you raise AA, KK, and AK UTG and in EP every time, or will you limp in a game where you're likely to be able to 3-bet preflop after someone else raises after you? If it is the former, I am glad to know this, it is one less thing I have to worry about when I'm playing against you. Link to post Share on other sites
TwistedEcho 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 we are talking about low limit poker here, how often do you play vs the same players? I dont really see any point disguising my hand when im rarely going to see the same players enough times they will actually notice Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 AQ is a drawing hand?Against 6 other players, will you assume your AQ high is good if you don't hit the board?I think there are games and places for both plays for any number of the reasons people have enumerated here. What I don't understand is the collective hardon over AQo. It isn't a marginal hand, but it is so frequently overplayed. I love it that way, though.My other question for some of you who say raise every time is whether or not you play hands the same way every time. Is the idea of disguising a hand (not necessarily AQ, but it qualifies in some instances) completely lost on you? How about varying your play? Do you raise AA, KK, and AK UTG and in EP every time, or will you limp in a game where you're likely to be able to 3-bet preflop after someone else raises after you? If it is the former, I am glad to know this, it is one less thing I have to worry about when I'm playing against you.attempting to vary your play by NOT raising premium hands is a recipe for disaster. If you want to mix up your play, start raising some hands you wouldnt raise with. Listen, here's the bottom line: in any game up to the 75-150 limits where you're on the button with 6 limpers, some of those limpers are gonna have junk (in an extremely tough mid-limit game you may be in trouble here, but this is a very rare scenario. i've played up to 20-40 and i've NEVER seen 6 limpers without 2 of them having complete garbage). AQo stands to win more than 1 in 7 times here. As long as you can play as competently as the rest of the table post flop (and if you cant you might want to find another game) a raise here has a positive expectation. You can argue about semantics, possible holdings, and deception all you want, but the fact remains that when you limp here you lose money. money that should be yours. Link to post Share on other sites
slash 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 attempting to vary your play by NOT raising premium hands is a recipe for disaster. If you want to mix up your play, start raising some hands you wouldnt raise with.As a general rule, this is dead wrong. But that's OK. Do you raise/3bet/cap AA every time you get it in any position, always? I don't. You shouldn't either. I love low limit players though, especially the completely mechanical ones. Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 dhall - So, in other words, you have no defense? FYI (since my personal life seems to matter to a slackass like yourself), I'm an 18 year old education major with a social life and plenty of friends who uses poker winnings to supplement tuition because my area is so rundown that it is very difficult for a college student to find a summer job. But, keep with your assumptions. Maybe you'll run into an old, fat, lonely guy one day. You could make him your husband if you want. AQ is a drawing hand?Well, technically, yes. It's not a made hand already. However, it has an advantage over almost every other drawing hand. I've already ran down the reasons raising with AQ here is +EV. Please reread page 4 for the explanation.jayboogie - Why do you keep bringing up "at higher limits..."? We've already made the point about 50 times that this is a low limit, online poker ring game. Try making sophisticated higher stakes moves at a low limit, donkey ring game. Let me know how it goes.Smash - Thank you for your insight. Very well put. Link to post Share on other sites
UglyJimStudly 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 My other question for some of you who say raise every time is whether or not you play hands the same way every time. Is the idea of disguising a hand (not necessarily AQ, but it qualifies in some instances) completely lost on you?Nope, but six limpers means that disguising strength isn't necessarily a big priority - if it's reasonable to believe some of the limpers are dead money but just don't know it yet, then getting them to put in more dead money isn't a bad thing. Deception is important when you're trying to take money from good players, but often either wasted or counter-productive against bad players, and I think the latter is more likely to result in six limpers ahead of you.Also, I disguise my hands by varying play of marginal hands; with six limpers, something like 77 or 89s I may or may not raise, my equity edge preflop is much thinner or non-existent. If somebody sees me raise and thinks "well, he's done that with AA, and he's done that with 89s", then I think my hand is pretty well disguised. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 attempting to vary your play by NOT raising premium hands is a recipe for disaster. If you want to mix up your play, start raising some hands you wouldnt raise with.As a general rule, this is dead wrong. But that's OK. Do you raise/3bet/cap AA every time you get it in any position, always? I don't. You shouldn't either. I love low limit players though, especially the completely mechanical ones.dead wrong, eh? can you explain why that is? and yes, i will raise/3 bet/cap with AA in any position every time i get it (2 exceptions - UTG on an extremely aggressive table ill limp-reraise, and if it's threebet to me and guaranteed to be heads up on the flop ill smoothcall the 3rd bet). Let me pre-empt your 'this makes you so predictable' response by asking you how would you combat my predictability? fold when i show strength? because im raising PF 8% of the time in a full ring game, and raising 4 times more then i check or call on the flop and beyond. Thats gonna be a lot of lost equity for you. And those numbers are through 60,000 hands, pal. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 My other question for some of you who say raise every time is whether or not you play hands the same way every time. Is the idea of disguising a hand (not necessarily AQ, but it qualifies in some instances) completely lost on you?Nope, but six limpers means that disguising strength isn't necessarily a big priority - if it's reasonable to believe some of the limpers are dead money but just don't know it yet, then getting them to put in more dead money isn't a bad thing. Deception is important when you're trying to take money from good players, but often either wasted or counter-productive against bad players, and I think the latter is more likely to result in six limpers ahead of you.Also, I disguise my hands by varying play of marginal hands; with six limpers, something like 77 or 89s I may or may not raise, my equity edge preflop is much thinner or non-existent. If somebody sees me raise and thinks "well, he's done that with AA, and he's done that with 89s", then I think my hand is pretty well disguised.dont even bother, bro, such low limit concepts are useless in the black chip games this guy obviously plays. It is obviously stupid to raise your premium hands. Link to post Share on other sites
jayboogie 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 dhall - So, in other words, you have no defense? FYI (since my personal life seems to matter to a slackass like yourself), I'm an 18 year old education major with a social life and plenty of friends who uses poker winnings to supplement tuition because my area is so rundown that it is very difficult for a college student to find a summer job. But, keep with your assumptions. Maybe you'll run into an old, fat, lonely guy one day. You could make him your husband if you want.AQ is a drawing hand?Well, technically, yes. It's not a made hand already. However, it has an advantage over almost every other drawing hand. I've already ran down the reasons raising with AQ here is +EV. Please reread page 4 for the explanation.jayboogie - Why do you keep bringing up "at higher limits..."? We've already made the point about 50 times that this is a low limit, online poker ring game. Try making sophisticated higher stakes moves at a low limit, donkey ring game. Let me know how it goes.Smash - Thank you for your insight. Very well put.I've already stated raising would be an OK play if your opponents are playing any 2 cards like AX, KX and all kinds of junk. If it's 6 or 7 to a flop every hand, then raising with a pot equity edge and position is fine. I also think limping in this situation is not a bad play either if not just for deceptive purposes once in a while. Link to post Share on other sites
rexmundi 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Forget it. I'm done arguing with you people. You keep limping with AQ - let me know how it goes.ill keep limping with AQo in this situation as i said before.. let me know how low limit poker treats ya..Yeah I definitely agree here. It seems everybody is a low limit know it all on here. Nobody ever believes they're wrong. The players that beat 10/20 and up probably know better than to raise in this situation. What can you do though, there's no sense preaching about it. Just keep letting the blind lead the blind.exactly.. Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 exactly..This could quite possibly be the most worthless post of the day. We already proved (via math) that raising is better than calling. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Forget it. I'm done arguing with you people. You keep limping with AQ - let me know how it goes.ill keep limping with AQo in this situation as i said before.. let me know how low limit poker treats ya..Yeah I definitely agree here. It seems everybody is a low limit know it all on here. Nobody ever believes they're wrong. The players that beat 10/20 and up probably know better than to raise in this situation. What can you do though, there's no sense preaching about it. Just keep letting the blind lead the blind.exactly..not quite. firstly, 3-6 online plays like 10-20 live. I know because i play 10-20 live and 3-6 online. secondly, we're talking about different kinds of games. In a game with 6 players REGULARILY seeing the flop, you indisputably have an equity edge with AQo when six players limp to you. In a very tough 10-20 game (the likes of which i have not seen in toronto in 5 years) with 2-3 way flops being the norm, when 6 players limp it means an altogether different thing. Anyways, im going to pull my PT stats on AQo when i get home, and post them. Anyone who wants to argue with the numbers can go ahead. Link to post Share on other sites
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