nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I had heard Dan took the Sands for quite a bit of money in his younger days by playing roulette having a system that gave him INSANE odds. Does anyone know how or what they did? Link to post Share on other sites
DCWildcat 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I've never heard that before, but I'd be interested to learn about it.I doubt he had insane odds...he'd have been caught too quick and they would have barred him. Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I've never heard that before, but I'd be interested to learn about it.I doubt he had insane odds...he'd have been caught too quick and they would have barred him.His odds were over 60%, for a house game, i consider that insane. Even 51% percent, i consider crazy. And yeah, he did get caught, quickly. And, oddly, you can't find a single thing for it online. I feel like he traded his life for keeping his secret.The only mention of it ive ever seen was a card player article on him. (you know those aces of poker articles) Link to post Share on other sites
DCWildcat 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Over 60%? That's beyond insane.Let me know if you find out more about it...or what his system was 8) Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Over 60%? That's beyond insane.Let me know if you find out more about it...or what his system was 8)That's why i posted this, it's unreal.... I can win at roulette but i have a different system. (bascially tipping teh dealer geting everyone to load up on your numbers and play blocks of the wheel not 1,2,3,4,5, etc.) no outside bets either. My best results are on fri, sat. when you can get away with not betting the minimun (e.g put 20 on a 100 table)I was just looking for the article that said his edge. I was being conservitive with 60 % too. Link to post Share on other sites
TheTorpedo 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I've never heard that before, but I'd be interested to learn about it.I doubt he had insane odds...he'd have been caught too quick and they would have barred him.His odds were over 60%, for a house game, i consider that insane. Even 51% percent, i consider crazy. And yeah, he did get caught, quickly. And, oddly, you can't find a single thing for it online. I feel like he traded his life for keeping his secret.The only mention of it ive ever seen was a card player article on him. (you know those aces of poker articles)Roullette can be beat both ways are illegal cheating (unlike blackjack counting which is not illegal).1. When you bet at roullete you get color coded chips for your checks so that you can differentiate between the different players bets the dealer leaves a marker for the value of these chips (my purple chip is $10 her yellow ones are $1000). You go to the table buy in for $1 say green chips play for a while and then "cash out" but leave a few green chips and walk away. Later someone comes and asks for the green chips to be worth $1000 and walla his leftover greens are worth $1000. Today this is not possible since they have automatic sorting machines that will detect lost chips.2. If you correctly measure the rotational speed of the rotor and the (counter) rotational speed of the ball you can predict to within say 1/3-1/2 of thevrotor where the ball will fall. Giving you immense odds. You will need a computer of course. This was done in the 70s using a clicking in the shoe mechanism everytime the wheel passed a certain point same for the ball. It was done recently in the UK using laser velocitymeters embedded in cell phones Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I've never heard that before, but I'd be interested to learn about it.I doubt he had insane odds...he'd have been caught too quick and they would have barred him.His odds were over 60%, for a house game, i consider that insane. Even 51% percent, i consider crazy. And yeah, he did get caught, quickly. And, oddly, you can't find a single thing for it online. I feel like he traded his life for keeping his secret.The only mention of it ive ever seen was a card player article on him. (you know those aces of poker articles)Roullette can be beat both ways are illegal cheating (unlike blackjack counting which is not illegal).1. When you bet at roullete you get color coded chips for your checks so that you can differentiate between the different players bets the dealer leaves a marker for the value of these chips (my purple chip is $10 her yellow ones are $1000). You go to the table buy in for $1 say green chips play for a while and then "cash out" but leave a few green chips and walk away. Later someone comes and asks for the green chips to be worth $1000 and walla his leftover greens are worth $1000. Today this is not possible since they have automatic sorting machines that will detect lost chips.2. If you correctly measure the rotational speed of the rotor and the (counter) rotational speed of the ball you can predict to within say 1/3-1/2 of thevrotor where the ball will fall. Giving you immense odds. You will need a computer of course. This was done in the 70s using a clicking in the shoe mechanism everytime the wheel passed a certain point same for the ball. It was done recently in the UK using laser velocitymeters embedded in cell phonesYeah, 1 is bunk, they do keep your chips and have like four guys watching you. You can color A LOT easier in any other house game, and i've noticed that. What is the specific science behind #2? I understand the means but how do you apply the data to get the ends? The ball is tossed at a random number (dealers hand is over # 20 on on release over #8 on the next) so how can that help you?Also, i've seen breaking vegas where they did that ( they did almost the exact same research and took the casinos for tons...they only got caught by transporting a roulette wheel though a state that did not allow gaming) Is this something different then what the breaking vegas guys did? Do you know if this was Dan's thing? Link to post Share on other sites
blinky 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Yeah, 1 is bunk, they do keep your chips and have like four guys watching you. You can color A LOT easier in any other house game, and i've noticed that. What is the specific science behind #2? I understand the means but how do you apply the data to get the ends? The ball is tossed at a random number (dealers hand is over # 20 on on release over #8 on the next) so how can that help you?u tell the computer the speed of the ball by clicking when it passes closely towards you (twice) , and you tell the computer the speed of the wheel by clicking when double zero passes (twice) Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Yeah, 1 is bunk, they do keep your chips and have like four guys watching you. You can color A LOT easier in any other house game, and i've noticed that. What is the specific science behind #2? I understand the means but how do you apply the data to get the ends? The ball is tossed at a random number (dealers hand is over # 20 on on release over #8 on the next) so how can that help you?u tell the computer the speed of the ball by clicking when it passes closely towards you (twice) , and you tell the computer the speed of the wheel by clicking when double zero passes (twice)the release point of the dealer will different every time...so how do you place you bets accordingly? (drum roll)Also, i'd figure roulette wheels are standardized at this point? I'd figure Ballys' and the Trops wheels are almost identically in synch making this knowlege almost publicany ideas? Link to post Share on other sites
ElToasto 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I don't know if anyone here has watched the show "Breaking Vegas" on the history channel, but they had an interesting episode a few weeks back. 2 physics masters students devised a plan using physics and a homeade computer in order to beat the game. They would sit at a table and calculate all these varaibles using there hidden computer. I think it gave them like a 65% advantage over the house. The computer would give them a quadrant on the wheel that the ball was most likely to hit. These students where in California, so I'm not sure it was the same people. They didn't make much money due to the computer shorting out and shocking them but it was cool nonetheless. Link to post Share on other sites
JaysonWeber 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I don't know if anyone here has watched the show "Breaking Vegas" on the history channel, but they had an interesting episode a few weeks back. 2 physics masters students devised a plan using physics and a homeade computer in order to beat the game. They would sit at a table and calculate all these varaibles using there hidden computer. I think it gave them like a 65% advantage over the house. The computer would give them a quadrant on the wheel that the ball was most likely to hit. These students where in California, so I'm not sure it was the same people. They didn't make much money due to the computer shorting out and shocking them but it was cool nonetheless.A few of the above posters obviously saw it... :lol:Very good show, that was really interesting too watch, one of the best breaking vegas's yet, if not the best. Link to post Share on other sites
TheTorpedo 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Yeah, 1 is bunk, they do keep your chips and have like four guys watching you. You can color A LOT easier in any other house game, and i've noticed that. What is the specific science behind #2? I understand the means but how do you apply the data to get the ends? The ball is tossed at a random number (dealers hand is over # 20 on on release over #8 on the next) so how can that help you?Also, i've seen breaking vegas where they did that ( they did almost the exact same research and took the casinos for tons...they only got caught by transporting a roulette wheel though a state that did not allow gaming) Is this something different then what the breaking vegas guys did? Do you know if this was Dan's thing?No idea on Dan. The physics are simple and does not matter where the dealer starts the ball at all matters where ball is now, and its speed and rate of deceleration. Based on that you can "calculate" where it will fall. Using that knowledge you know where the rotor will be based on its position now, speed (rotational speed to be exact) and rate of deceleration. Sure the ball will jump around a bit and the calculations/measurements are not exact but it you can "rule out" as little as 1/8 of the rotor where it will be you have great odds (bet everywhere else). Why is this illegal because in Nevada you cannot use a "device" as a gambling advantage. A computioanl device is a device. BTW I am not sure that a "device" was illegal in the 70s and that may be a reason that anyone caught doing it was warned as opposed to thrown in jail. If you could do the above calculations in your head %100 legal (they would still throw you out of the casino if you were not prudent)The house advantage is aprox 5.4% (american roulette) and 2.8% (european "single 0" roulette) removing 1/8 gives you 7% advantage (rough calculations) Link to post Share on other sites
mbreon 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I just take comfort in the fact that I am not the only one out there watching Breaking Vegas. I love that show. Anyone watch the episode with the old school blackjack team that managed to switch out shoes with the dealer? Damn that lead girl was hot (in the dramatization at least) Link to post Share on other sites
The Librarian 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 There's a reference to him being in the MIT team here:http://www.launchpoker.com/personalities/w...an-harrington-/ Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 There's a reference to him being in the MIT team here:http://www.launchpoker.com/personalities/w...an-harrington-/ That article is just oozing with legitimacy. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 many roullette wheels in the 70s were biased. That means that the ball stopped more often in a particular quadrant of the wheel than others (the things are made using robots now, which can machine pretty perfect circles, but the components werent nearly as good back then and decayed over time). Anyone who was able to sit there for enough time and record the numbers that were falling could gain a decent edge. Just a thought. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 many roullette wheels in the 70s were biased. That means that the ball stopped more often in a particular quadrant of the wheel than others (the things are made using robots now, which can machine pretty perfect circles, but the components werent nearly as good back then and decayed over time). Anyone who was able to sit there for enough time and record the numbers that were falling could gain a decent edge. Just a thought.Blaze.. i would hate to play you at Balderdash (sp?).. man.. even if thats not true.. your shit always makes me think.. I'm sure u could sell my soul back to me if u tried. :wink: lol Link to post Share on other sites
Mojo_Yugen 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 There was another “Breaking Vegas” episode a while back on roulette where a mathematician went into the local casinos (this was in Spain I think) and recorded like 30,000 spins on a few different wheels. From this he calculated the most likely numbers to come up. This worked since the wheels weren’t truly random, wear and tear on the ball bearing would eventually lead to a wheel with a big enough bias to overcome the house advantage by a small amount. He and his family used this method all over Europe, eventually getting banned from every casino in the process. I think the took something like 1.5 million over a couple of year. This from a $2,200 initial investment. Link to post Share on other sites
711Buddha 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 The most obvious is move the wheels around. Makes it harder to know which wheel is which. Servicing the wheels can also help. So can using several roulette balls of varying size. Finally, you know how they post the recent results? Simply log them and continiously check for any bias that might lessen the house edge. Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 These are all very ineresting, but again, no one knows about Action Dan? Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 many roullette wheels in the 70s were biased. That means that the ball stopped more often in a particular quadrant of the wheel than others (the things are made using robots now, which can machine pretty perfect circles, but the components werent nearly as good back then and decayed over time). Anyone who was able to sit there for enough time and record the numbers that were falling could gain a decent edge. Just a thought.Blaze.. i would hate to play you at Balderdash (sp?).. man.. even if thats not true.. your shit always makes me think.. I'm sure u could sell my soul back to me if u tried. :wink: loli seem to have an astounding command of thoroughly useless knowledge. unfortunately, my parents arent so impressed Link to post Share on other sites
Meatwad 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 They probably have changed the roulette routines to counter it since this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4069629.stm Link to post Share on other sites
nutonflop 0 Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 so anything abut dan? anyone?> Link to post Share on other sites
GTKID 0 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Unless there is a perfect way to bet your chips all around I wouldn't think you could legally beat roulette since all the bets are not in your favor. Link to post Share on other sites
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