pocket aces after the flop nl cash

[Absolute 0]

im just waiting for smasharoo to say april fools dayor just kiddingor "i was seeing if i can convince some idiots if this is actually best"something like thatallinbluff made the best remark thus far and it went unanswered, and i imagine thats why he has stopped posting in this thread.if you are correct Smash, show us statistics that say so.asking anyone to "trust you" that pushin with AA in a side game is more profitable than making the proper raise and playing well post-flop is ridiculous, and it is the kind of thing you would usually criticize.im actually amazed one person agrees with yougood thing you dont reply to me anymore, i wouldnt be able to understand your reply, i am too busy laughing.how about we just start pushing all our chips in every time we hit top pair?

[21gambit 0]

Im pretty sure this isnt a joke, smash has been suggesting this for months now.

[Absolute 0]

Im pretty sure this isnt a joke, smash has been suggesting this for months now.

im amazed he hasnt signed any book deals yet with this revolutionary theory.

[PrtyPSux 0]

But there's no reason to move with them when there's no reason you should expect to get called by anything but KKYou must either play in diffrent 100 max SH games than me, or haven't tried moving in pre-flop very much.I've been called with AK, AQ, KK-77 etc. Even JTs.

I saw one guy call 100 w/ A9 at a $300max game and said that he was shortstacked so he had to make a move soon, with any ace!...I got called in that same game by JJ and QQ... just yesterday I got called by KK, and AK. the time I decieded to play it one dude out of many PF callers flopped a set I cant get away from it in a ragged board.

[TheIceman05 0]

I have this silly feeling you're going to say that you're advocating open-moving when there are better strategies. Am I wrong?? I'm saying you have no idea if there *are* betterstrategies.Try it out for a few thousand hands each and compare.If you're making more money seeing flops, let me know.

Ugh, this is frustrating.If you can explain to me WHY I should push against reasonably solid players- and see a bigger return on my money- let me know. First, let me tell you a few things about me. I'm always at least at the max buy-in. If I lose a pot and drop under the max, I rebuy. No exceptions. I raise a lot of hands, but reraise very few (AA, KK....QQ occassionally), unless I'm the third player in. For example, I'll raise it up with AKs UTG, but if the button raises a reasonable amount, I'll flat call and see a flop. If I've got QQ on the button and UTG raises and UTG+2 reraises, I'll probably bump it big or move. I do, however, raise with any pocket-pair if it's been limped or folded to me, and a significant number of broadway permutations. I realize people know this, and understand I've got to play exceptionally well post-flop. I generally just play alright postflop. I just want a rational explanation for pushing preflop under any and all circumstances against solid players. If you're wrong, I can argue. If you're right, I can argue until you convince me. Ice

[Absolute 0]

I changed my mind.This theory holds up.at the pokerstars $.01/$.02 table.decent players dont call their stack with trash enough to make pushing in everytime you get aces profitable.also, decent players realize someone who pushes their stack in everytime they get dealt AA or KK.

[Absolute 0]

I have this silly feeling you're going to say that you're advocating open-moving when there are better strategies. Am I wrong?? I'm saying you have no idea if there *are* betterstrategies.Try it out for a few thousand hands each and compare.If you're making more money seeing flops, let me know.

Ugh, this is frustrating.If you can explain to me WHY I should push against reasonably solid players- and see a bigger return on my money- let me know. First, let me tell you a few things about me. I'm always at least at the max buy-in. If I lose a pot and drop under the max, I rebuy. No exceptions. I raise a lot of hands, but reraise very few (AA, KK....QQ occassionally), unless I'm the third player in. For example, I'll raise it up with AKs UTG, but if the button raises a reasonable amount, I'll flat call and see a flop. If I've got QQ on the button and UTG raises and UTG+2 reraises, I'll probably bump it big or move. I do, however, raise with any pocket-pair if it's been limped or folded to me, and a significant number of broadway permutations. I realize people know this, and understand I've got to play exceptionally well post-flop. I generally just play alright postflop. I just want a rational explanation for pushing preflop under any and all circumstances against solid players. If you're wrong, I can argue. If you're right, I can argue until you convince me. Ice

lolyou know better than this.lets move to a new threadthis is absolute garbage.ill dig up a new hand from my PT database

[PrtyPSux 0]

If you can explain to me WHY I should push against reasonably solid players- and see a bigger return on my money- let me know. Ice

I dont think this strategy is meant for reasonably solid play, if smash uses it in solid games thats just dumb. This play is for loos games with people that are either stupid (call w/ QQ, JJ AK) or love to gamble (live games with drunks and rich kids). I also dont think that this would work for me in a 6 max game (honestly I've never tried it).

[PrtyPSux 0]

also, decent players realize someone who pushes their stack in everytime they get dealt AA or KK.

this I agree with. It is a flaw of the play, online what I do though is move tables when this works. Live, it doesnt really matter people still call.

[Smasharoo 0]

I just want a rational explanation for pushing preflop under any and all circumstances against solid players. If you're wrong, I can argue. If you're right, I can argue until you convince me. I've explained it allready.Let me enumerate some points and see if that helps.1. Buy moving in pre-flop you will allways be making a massively +EV play. Allways. It's impossible for you to take the worst of doing this. It can't happen in a cash game. If you win the blinds, great. If you get one caller, great. If you get 5 callers, great.2. You can't be outplayed podtflop. You'll never suffer the losses of folding the best hand. Never. Not once. You will do this playing them postflop regardless of how well you play them.3. You will offer zero implied odds to hands like smaller PPs and as such will never pay them off post-flop where they have the chance to get the money in when you are drawing to two outs.4. Your table image will be better because people will think you're *afraid* to play AA postflop instead of just realizing that you likely make more money not bothering with them postflop.5. You, and everyone in the world, probably don't really play as well postflop as we'd like to think we do. 6. There's more money in it. Why you refuse to believe this without trying it, I have no idea, but there is. Why will you not just try it and see? What do you have to lose? The diffrence between what you make now and what you'd make by moving in. I submit that diffrence is in the other direction. Try it and see, and prove me wrong. Wouldn't that be great?If you don't make more you prove me wrong, hosah! If you do make more, you have more money, hosah!It's win/win.I imagine you won't though.Ego and all

[TheIceman05 0]

If you don't make more you prove me wrong, hosah! If you do make more, you have more money, hosah!It's win/win.I imagine you won't though.Ego and all

That's hilarious... because I'm actually British; my ego is the size of my... uh, well, it's not that large, is it?I just don't see how "go ahead! try it! seriously!" is a viable proof-strategy. I think you're wrong for a few basic reasons. And I don't think moving in over and over and over again will settle anything anytime soon. Not because I struggle with my ego. You and I both know that it would take years for me to see enough hands to make any kind of legitimate sample-size. I've always found that to be a successful s/h NL player, playing well post-flop is easily the most important skill. If I move with AA before the flop everytime, I have to move with 3-6 other hands, too, to make calling anywhere NEAR appropriate for my opponents. I still maintain you've lost your mind on this one, Smash :)CheersIce

[Smasharoo 0]

I just don't see how "go ahead! try it! seriously!" is a viable proof-strategy. No, buy my reasoning is emphirical and logical.Go ahead and try is peer review.I'm not wrong, but you're going to continue not maximizng value for whatever reason.not ego, apparently. Brittish penchant for masochism, I guess.

[TheIceman05 0]

I just don't see how "go ahead! try it! seriously!" is a viable proof-strategy. No, buy my reasoning is emphirical and logical.Go ahead and try is peer review.I'm not wrong, but you're going to continue not maximizng value for whatever reason.not ego, apparently. Brittish penchant for masochism, I guess.

But your reasoning is horribly and fatally flawed... I've got a modicum of respect for your limit-hold'em analysis, but your NL analysis in this situation is lacking. No offense. Nothing personal. No one's going to benefit if we argue this any further. Ice

[Smasharoo 0]

But your reasoning is horribly and fatally flawed... I've got a modicum of respect for your limit-hold'em analysis, but your NL analysis in this situation is lacking. Mind demonstrating how, or even attempting to?You don't seem to have a very good grasp on NL at all.The thing aobut the present state of NL play is that horrible players can win and mediocre players can do great.This is often confused by them with understanding the game.It's a shame you can't over any sort of vague counter to my completely valid points.Maybe next time.

[elkang 0]

Well, I'm convinced. Especially at these silly low level NL games. But, I don't think I can do this at many of the $200 NL games I play though. As I would be telegraphing the AA and the # of callers would be quite lot. I have seen it done sucessfully though at that level though, so I will try it occaisionally.If it is a good play, I am rewarding myself more by doing it. Not as much as doing it all the time. I personally like adding another play for AA. I only go all-in now when I the pot get ratcheted up a bit, but will do it more frequently now.It is certainly a better play than limping (which I tend to do about 1/2 the time UTG - esp if the table is aggresssive preflop).I'll post the results, but obviously mysample size will be small.

[Devilkin 0]

No, really.All in pre-flop.AA are a huge pain in the ass to play postflop in NL.You'll get called preflop a lot more than you'd imagine and it's impossible to make any mistakes postflop.Why make something very smple hard?

Smash is totally correct. I had this suggested to me about two months ago, and originally I thought he was joking. Little did I know the number of times that my AA would go up against 99, AJo and especially KK!Try it a few times - my bankroll thanks your suggestion Smash.It also works wonders early in tournaments too, when the dead money is just floating out there waiting to be taken.DevEdit: my experience applies to low level NL games only.

[econ_tim 0]

I agree that going all-in with pocket aces or kings is the right play in very bad NL games. However, if you are playing in a game with moderately competent players, you shouldn't do this.Raise preflop whatever you would in that position with any other raising hand. For me, it's 3 times the big blinds to open, and a little more if there a limpers.If you are reraised preflop, then you can push, as the pot is already getting big and the other person might call you.If someone has raised in front of you preflop, then either make a pot-sized reraise or push.After the flop, you should bet around the size of the pot if it is checked to you for just about every flop. You have to bet your kings if an ace flops and it is checked to you.If someone pushes on the flop, you have to use your knowledge of that player to decide how likely it is that you are ahead. It is not a sin to fold aces.

[Absolute 0]

No, really.All in pre-flop.AA are a huge pain in the ass to play postflop in NL.You'll get called preflop a lot more than you'd imagine and it's impossible to make any mistakes postflop.Why make something very smple hard?

Smash is totally correct. I had this suggested to me about two months ago, and originally I thought he was joking. Little did I know the number of times that my AA would go up against 99, AJo and especially KK!Try it a few times - my bankroll thanks your suggestion Smash.It also works wonders early in tournaments too, when the dead money is just floating out there waiting to be taken.DevEdit: my experience applies to low level NL games only.

I am beginnign to think that the reason this is "working" for a lot of you is because you have no idea how to play post-flop.Just a hunch though.Because this idea is totally bogus.

[speedz99 145]

No, really.All in pre-flop.AA are a huge pain in the ass to play postflop in NL.You'll get called preflop a lot more than you'd imagine and it's impossible to make any mistakes postflop.Why make something very smple hard?

Smash is totally correct. I had this suggested to me about two months ago, and originally I thought he was joking. Little did I know the number of times that my AA would go up against 99, AJo and especially KK!Try it a few times - my bankroll thanks your suggestion Smash.It also works wonders early in tournaments too, when the dead money is just floating out there waiting to be taken.DevEdit: my experience applies to low level NL games only.

I am beginnign to think that the reason this is "working" for a lot of you is because you have no idea how to play post-flop.Just a hunch though.Because this idea is totally bogus.

I think that's been the whole point from the beginning. If you are uncomfortable and lose money post flop with AA, just go all in pre-flop and you will come out a bigger winner than if you tried to get tricky. Nobody has ever claimed this to be an advanced strategy, just an easy and profitable one.

[princeof56k 0]

In general I agree with Smash about pushing with Aces (or Kings) pre-flop, but I have a slight twist to that.From EP I only limp in and wait for someone else to raise. I do this because most of the time in the NL games someone will raise. And if you re-raise them all-in, they usually end up calling most of the time. Probably because they think you're bluffing and dont want to be pushed around. I have found that if I'm first to act and I push its much less likely to get called (although plenty of people will still call) than when someone raises me first.If I have position, someone will usually raise before me, and the all-in strategy works for the same reasons I mention above.If I'm on the button and its folded to me, I might limp and hope the SB or BB will raise trying to steal. If they dont raise, I just try and play the flop accordingly.I've tried this tactic under a variety of conditions and you would be suprised how many people will call. Even more shocking is the number of time I get multiple callers. When I get 2 or 3 callers to my all-in, I'm practically doing cart-wheels in my apartment.

[princeof56k 0]

I agree that going all-in with pocket aces or kings is the right play in very bad NL games. However, if you are playing in a game with moderately competent players, you shouldn't do this.

I've seen it work in games with moderately competent players for the exact reason that they are competent. After all no idiot would raise all-in with pocket Aces pre-flop. The correct play is to see a flop and try to maximise your winnings. This is the exact reason they will call with 99-QQ pocket pairs, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ and stuff a lot worse (cant blame somone if they call with KK or AK).The better statement to make is that this strategy doesnt work at tables with tight players who will never call an all-in preflop unless they have AA,KK, or AK.

[econ_tim 0]

I've seen it work in games with moderately competent players for the exact reason that they are competent. After all no idiot would raise all-in with pocket Aces pre-flop. The correct play is to see a flop and try to maximise your winnings. This is the exact reason they will call with 99-QQ pocket pairs, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ and stuff a lot worse (cant blame somone if they call with KK or AK).The better statement to make is that this strategy doesnt work at tables with tight players who will never call an all-in preflop unless they have AA,KK, or AK.

If I'm not mistaken, the strategy advocated by Smash is to go all-in preflop with AA and KK and only with AA and KK. This couldn't work for long in my home game as I'm sure the other players would figure out what I was doing. Against unknowns, maybe you will get a caller.

[princeof56k 0]

I've seen it work in games with moderately competent players for the exact reason that they are competent. After all no idiot would raise all-in with pocket Aces pre-flop. The correct play is to see a flop and try to maximise your winnings. This is the exact reason they will call with 99-QQ pocket pairs, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ and stuff a lot worse (cant blame somone if they call with KK or AK).The better statement to make is that this strategy doesnt work at tables with tight players who will never call an all-in preflop unless they have AA,KK, or AK.

If I'm not mistaken, the strategy advocated by Smash is to go all-in preflop with AA and KK and only with AA and KK. This couldn't work for long in my home game as I'm sure the other players would figure out what I was doing. Against unknowns, maybe you will get a caller.

Cant argue with you there. If you are playing in home games against the same players all the time, this is a bad strategy. But online or in B&M casinos where you are playing against unknowns most of the time, you will get way more callers than you could ever imagine

[Abbaddabba 0]

Look at it from their situation. At particularly loose or shitty tables, you'll have people pushing with significantly less than aces - which (in addition to them being simply bad players) is another reason why you will get callers. If you dont want to go all in, then you can raise for an amount where the sum of your bet and a caller will price ANYONE in for a postflop call, regardless of what comes on the flop. You cannot make a terrible decision postflop if you only have 1/2 of the pot size in your stack ... and you're far more likely to get callers for a bet half the size of your all in.

[elkang 0]

Well I couldn't do it at the $200 table I was playing today. Only one pair of aces so far... and I couldn't do it. I raised to $15 and took down $5. My table image is good too.I will play some $25/$50 buyin tables tomorrow and hope I get Aces.