did i play this correctly?

[goldenteemaster 0]

re: the initial hand being discussed: I think the all in could have been avoided. People have been saying "what did you think he had when he called the 8K" and that's where you made a slight mistake. Sure you had two pair but when the Q comes on the turn and you've put him on single J what might he have been playing with the J? J/10, JQ, JK would be my best bets....considering no raises with the limpers I'd say J/10, JQ are the best bets. You're only losing to one of those (the one that got you) so I don't think it was a particularly bad move but I think I'd have avoided the all in and just put a decent sized bet out.

[gadjet 11]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

First of all, this is a forum. Posting implies potential peanut gallery commentary.Second of all, I think you are being results-oriented in your analysis. This was a dream flop for the OP and the scary call that you keep referring to was made by an opponent who was completely f'n dominated at the time.I would have pushed on the flop, but as I said before, my suspicion is that QJ would have called. I think most people would have gone broke on this hand.

Wouldn't a dream flop be 33-J? Results oriented my ass, another reason why J-3 is more pushable on the flop than on the turn is that, noone's going to have called with J-5, so you can consider yourself 3rd nut to 5-5- and J-J, when the Queen comes, you are now looking at being up against a very playable hand in Q-J.... if the turn would've come A you should be concerned as well, because people play A-5 or A-J and they kill you. The other thing about the turn is that now there a 6 outs that counterfeit your hand. If the river comes 5 or Q you can assume your 3 kicker will not play.On the other hand, I do agree that most players would go broke on this hand, because there was bad luck involved. Whether they push on the flop or just get roped in... however asking him what he thought the other player had when he called 8000 is still a really good question. This forum is to help us learn, and we learn by asking questions and thinking situational play through. Even if it's just the fact that this player needed to be more aware of the caller? Regardless of if he goes broke or not, he should at least be aware that his hand was far from the nuts...You know how many people flop a two pair and can't lay it down even when the board goess runner runner four card straight and flush on it? Lots of people, that's how many!

[Royal_Tour 0]

OK, so you think you made a bad play by going all in there.  Let's say you bet 4K on the turn cause the call of 8K on the flop scared you.  He raises you all in.  Do you feel like you could have got away from it?  If so I assume you put him on QJ or 55..good for you.  If you were going to call all of your chips anyway, why do you think you made a bad decision going all in?  Wouldn't the rule of "if you are going to call all in for the rest of your chips why don't you just go all in and at least get some fold equity" apply?

I flopped a set yesterday, and bet a small amount.,wanting to keep a couple of people in. The turn braught a card that would give a possible straight with 2 connected cards. 9,10 i think. Anywyas. It's checked to me. I bet a larger bet. more than the pot this time. I get 1 caller. The river is a 9.. now it only takes a 10 for the straight. My opponent is 1st to act and he pushes all in. I had him covered, but i folded.and he showed me nothing., he bluffed me off my set. And i said. Thank you.and about 30 mins. later. he was broke. Moral of my lame story is, its ok to throw away a good hand if you feel comfortable enough to make it back later

That's weird... that's not why I'd ever throw a hand away, I'd throw it away if I thought I was beat, or maybe if I'm up against a ridiculous overbet. But throwing a hand away cause I'm comfortable I can make it back is strange.

How so?. I had a feeling i had him beat. he was calling my bets since pre-flop to flop. to turn.I had an idea of what he had., and then i switch that idea over to "he had ace ten" which was a mistake. i was baffled by why he pushed all in on the river after he had been check calling my bets. So i put him on the straight, which was stupid of me. And i thought to myself. i probably have this, but i'll let it go, because i know i will get this guy.Thats was my thought process.. Not. "hmm he just bet into me, but i have a set, and its probably good. but i'm not sure. .so i'l risk most of my money to find out the hard way".

[gadjet 11]

Royal, I see the moral of that story is that you got outplayed on every street.  I make that call 100% of the time if I have him covered and have a decent size stack left.  Why does he go all in there with a ten?  He has to specifically put you on a set knowing that is the only hand you could possibly call with..besides a T obviously.   I would love to see that hand history to see what hands he possible could have had.  BTW, I think it is ok to throw away a good hand anytime for any reason you deem necessary.  Haven't you ever thrown a hand away that you actually thought was ahead?  Call me crazy, but I have done that on very few occasions as well.

Lebowski, you play good, and good choice in movies! This isn't Naam, there are rules here...

[Royal_Tour 0]

Royal, I see the moral of that story is that you got outplayed on every street.  I make that call 100% of the time if I have him covered and have a decent size stack left.  Why does he go all in there with a ten?  He has to specifically put you on a set knowing that is the only hand you could possibly call with..besides a T obviously.   I would love to see that hand history to see what hands he possible could have had.  BTW, I think it is ok to throw away a good hand anytime for any reason you deem necessary.  Haven't you ever thrown a hand away that you actually thought was ahead?  Call me crazy, but I have done that on very few occasions as well.

FYI : I had peanuts left! if i lostI really wish i could say he "out-played" me on every street, but the fact is,he called with a pair of queens the entire time. I had a set of Jacks. so he had top pair which was his motive for sticking in. But then i bet out a fair amount on the turn. he called that also. after he had been checking to me the whole time.I;d like to think this guy is a good player, but the river braught the ten, and he pushed. If he knew what i had, and he could push me off. then i congratulate him. But down the road his reckless play cost him when he ran into me again, and this time his re-raise resulted in my push, and he called against my made hand

[PT0077 0]

I think the all in could have been avoided.  People have been saying "what did you think he had when he called the 8K" and that's where you made a slight mistake.  Sure you had two pair but when the Q comes on the turn and you've put him on single J what might he have been playing with the J?  J/10, JQ, JK would be my best bets.  You're only losing to one of those (the one that got you) so I don't think it was a particularly bad move but I think I'd have avoided the all in and just put a decent sized bet out.

What bet do you make into a 20k pot that is going to make someone fold? If you bet out 4k (half of your original bet) you're gonna get raised leaving you losing over half of your stack and only having 4BB left, if you bet 8k (same original bet) then you have committed yourself to the pot or you could fold after being raised, but why do that and leave 18k in the pot and you with 2 BB. There are only 3-4 reasonable hands that have you beat here, QJ, 55 and 33 are the only reasonable hands the opposition could have that have you beat on the turn. It just so happens that he had one of them.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think the wrong move was going all-in because when you bet the 8000 from the big blind and were called.   I would have put him on the other jack.  With your kicker you were beat for sure.  Checking would have been tough.    Your first bet of 8000 signels that you are holding a Jack and at most you hit trips.   Knowing you only had one Jack, after his call what did you think he had?

You miss read the OP, thinking he had a pair of jacks, no kicker, instead of two pair, then you try and cover your a$$... what did he think he had? Aj, kj, j10, aa, kk, qq, 10 99, jack anything!! He could beat many, many hands, and the only thing the guy could relaistically have ( as he would have raised with jj, qq preflop, in all odds) that this guy couldn't beat would be qj, 44, or 33, all of which are unlikely. It was most likely he had teh guy killed, and was making a value bet.. your play was fine dude, you just took a tough beat.

[gadjet 11]

OK, so you think you made a bad play by going all in there.  Let's say you bet 4K on the turn cause the call of 8K on the flop scared you.  He raises you all in.  Do you feel like you could have got away from it?  If so I assume you put him on QJ or 55..good for you.  If you were going to call all of your chips anyway, why do you think you made a bad decision going all in?  Wouldn't the rule of "if you are going to call all in for the rest of your chips why don't you just go all in and at least get some fold equity" apply?

I flopped a set yesterday, and bet a small amount.,wanting to keep a couple of people in. The turn braught a card that would give a possible straight with 2 connected cards. 9,10 i think. Anywyas. It's checked to me. I bet a larger bet. more than the pot this time. I get 1 caller. The river is a 9.. now it only takes a 10 for the straight. My opponent is 1st to act and he pushes all in. I had him covered, but i folded.and he showed me nothing., he bluffed me off my set. And i said. Thank you.and about 30 mins. later. he was broke. Moral of my lame story is, its ok to throw away a good hand if you feel comfortable enough to make it back later

That's weird... that's not why I'd ever throw a hand away, I'd throw it away if I thought I was beat, or maybe if I'm up against a ridiculous overbet. But throwing a hand away cause I'm comfortable I can make it back is strange.

How so?. I had a feeling i had him beat. he was calling my bets since pre-flop to flop. to turn.I had an idea of what he had., and then i switch that idea over to "he had ace ten" which was a mistake. i was baffled by why he pushed all in on the river after he had been check calling my bets. So i put him on the straight, which was stupid of me. And i thought to myself. i probably have this, but i'll let it go, because i know i will get this guy.Thats was my thought process.. Not. "hmm he just bet into me, but i have a set, and its probably good. but i'm not sure. .so i'l risk most of my money to find out the hard way".

Royal, I have no issue with your laydown... and I definately have no issue with that chick in your avatars laydown either... all I'm saying is laying down to a river bet onthe grounds that you are comfortable you can win it back later is weird to me. I don't have numbers of the bets or run of play or anything so of course I'm not judging your laydown... but I'd just rather you say that you felt there was a big enough chance he had the ten, rather than you simply laid down cause you knew you could get it back later... that's all...

[fatmanonguitar 0]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

First of all, this is a forum. Posting implies potential peanut gallery commentary.Second of all, I think you are being results-oriented in your analysis. This was a dream flop for the OP and the scary call that you keep referring to was made by an opponent who was completely f'n dominated at the time.I would have pushed on the flop, but as I said before, my suspicion is that QJ would have called. I think most people would have gone broke on this hand.

Wouldn't a dream flop be 33-J? Results oriented my ass, another reason why J-3 is more pushable on the flop than on the turn is that, noone's going to have called with J-5, so you can consider yourself 3rd nut to 5-5- and J-J, when the Queen comes, you are now looking at being up against a very playable hand in Q-J.... if the turn would've come A you should be concerned as well, because people play A-5 or A-J and they kill you. The other thing about the turn is that now there a 6 outs that counterfeit your hand. If the river comes 5 or Q you can assume your 3 kicker will not play.On the other hand, I do agree that most players would go broke on this hand, because there was bad luck involved. Whether they push on the flop or just get roped in... however asking him what he thought the other player had when he called 8000 is still a really good question. This forum is to help us learn, and we learn by asking questions and thinking situational play through. Even if it's just the fact that this player needed to be more aware of the caller? Regardless of if he goes broke or not, he should at least be aware that his hand was far from the nuts...You know how many people flop a two pair and can't lay it down even when the board goess runner runner four card straight and flush on it? Lots of people, that's how many!

Maybe "dream flop" is an overstatement, but it clearly turned garbage into gold. I have said since my original post that I would have pushed on the flop. I just think that the OP put himself in a position without much choice. He was essentially pot-committed with close to 50% of his chips in the pot. Another question that could be asked to the OP is "Given your investment in this hand, would you be willing to lay your 2 pair down if he bet into your turn check?" If the answer is no, you have to push all-in.

[Aces_Over_ 0]

in answer to your question, I was sure he had a jack, i knew full well i could get beat, i didn't figure him for 2 pair on the flop, because he did not raise me back and yes i took a chance when the queen came and it cost me, i was trying to accumulate chips as someone said these these blinds go up quick. I should have probally pushed in on the flop, was my best chance to take it down, but i believe i would have been called anyway.I appreciate everyones response and opinions. Thanks

[Royal_Tour 0]

OK, so you think you made a bad play by going all in there.  Let's say you bet 4K on the turn cause the call of 8K on the flop scared you.  He raises you all in.  Do you feel like you could have got away from it?  If so I assume you put him on QJ or 55..good for you.  If you were going to call all of your chips anyway, why do you think you made a bad decision going all in?  Wouldn't the rule of "if you are going to call all in for the rest of your chips why don't you just go all in and at least get some fold equity" apply?

I flopped a set yesterday, and bet a small amount.,wanting to keep a couple of people in. The turn braught a card that would give a possible straight with 2 connected cards. 9,10 i think. Anywyas. It's checked to me. I bet a larger bet. more than the pot this time. I get 1 caller. The river is a 9.. now it only takes a 10 for the straight. My opponent is 1st to act and he pushes all in. I had him covered, but i folded.and he showed me nothing., he bluffed me off my set. And i said. Thank you.and about 30 mins. later. he was broke. Moral of my lame story is, its ok to throw away a good hand if you feel comfortable enough to make it back later

That's weird... that's not why I'd ever throw a hand away, I'd throw it away if I thought I was beat, or maybe if I'm up against a ridiculous overbet. But throwing a hand away cause I'm comfortable I can make it back is strange.

How so?. I had a feeling i had him beat. he was calling my bets since pre-flop to flop. to turn.I had an idea of what he had., and then i switch that idea over to "he had ace ten" which was a mistake. i was baffled by why he pushed all in on the river after he had been check calling my bets. So i put him on the straight, which was stupid of me. And i thought to myself. i probably have this, but i'll let it go, because i know i will get this guy.Thats was my thought process.. Not. "hmm he just bet into me, but i have a set, and its probably good. but i'm not sure. .so i'l risk most of my money to find out the hard way".

Royal, I have no issue with your laydown... and I definately have no issue with that chick in your avatars laydown either... all I'm saying is laying down to a river bet onthe grounds that you are comfortable you can win it back later is weird to me. I don't have numbers of the bets or run of play or anything so of course I'm not judging your laydown... but I'd just rather you say that you felt there was a big enough chance he had the ten, rather than you simply laid down cause you knew you could get it back later... that's all...

Ohh. well in that case.. Yes. i layed it down because i put him on the 10..But in all fairness. We have to have that mind set, to make our laydowns easier. If i wasnt confident in my ability to outplay this guy, then i'd be screwed right??.. even if he was waaay better than me. I still have to be confident in my game.Thats all i was saying. sorry.

[gadjet 11]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

First of all, this is a forum. Posting implies potential peanut gallery commentary.Second of all, I think you are being results-oriented in your analysis. This was a dream flop for the OP and the scary call that you keep referring to was made by an opponent who was completely f'n dominated at the time.I would have pushed on the flop, but as I said before, my suspicion is that QJ would have called. I think most people would have gone broke on this hand.

Wouldn't a dream flop be 33-J? Results oriented my ass, another reason why J-3 is more pushable on the flop than on the turn is that, noone's going to have called with J-5, so you can consider yourself 3rd nut to 5-5- and J-J, when the Queen comes, you are now looking at being up against a very playable hand in Q-J.... if the turn would've come A you should be concerned as well, because people play A-5 or A-J and they kill you. The other thing about the turn is that now there a 6 outs that counterfeit your hand. If the river comes 5 or Q you can assume your 3 kicker will not play.On the other hand, I do agree that most players would go broke on this hand, because there was bad luck involved. Whether they push on the flop or just get roped in... however asking him what he thought the other player had when he called 8000 is still a really good question. This forum is to help us learn, and we learn by asking questions and thinking situational play through. Even if it's just the fact that this player needed to be more aware of the caller? Regardless of if he goes broke or not, he should at least be aware that his hand was far from the nuts...You know how many people flop a two pair and can't lay it down even when the board goess runner runner four card straight and flush on it? Lots of people, that's how many!

Maybe "dream flop" is an overstatement, but it clearly turned garbage into gold. I have said since my original post that I would have pushed on the flop. I just think that the OP put himself in a position without much choice. He was essentially pot-committed with close to 50% of his chips in the pot. Another question that could be asked to the OP is "Given your investment in this hand, would you be willing to lay your 2 pair down if he bet into your turn check?" If the answer is no, you have to push all-in.

No to be nitpicky against you or anything... I think we're clear on most stuff... I just have to point this logic out cause I htink it's a poker flaw.When considering the pot size and pot odds etc, you should completely disregard "your investment". How much you've spent up to this point is meaningless, once your money is in the pot it is no longer your money, thinking of it as still your money can cause problems. The only things to consider here are the pot size and your stack size. This doesn't change the idea behind your question at all fatman, it just changes the language a little:Given the pot size, your stack size and the likeliehood he may have you beat, would you be willing to lay down your hand if he bets. If you answer no, then yes push all-in...

[Franky Bones 0]

in answer to your question, I was sure he had a jack, i knew full well i could get beat, i didn't figure him for 2 pair on the flop, because he did not raise me back and yes i took a chance when the queen came and it cost me, i was trying to accumulate chips as someone said these these blinds go up quick.  I should have probally pushed in on the flop, was my best chance to take it down, but i believe i would have been called anyway.I appreciate everyones response and opinions.  Thanks

I appreciate your answer. I might have made the exact same play and brought the question to the board. You did win though. You learned a lesson.

[gadjet 11]

OK, so you think you made a bad play by going all in there.  Let's say you bet 4K on the turn cause the call of 8K on the flop scared you.  He raises you all in.  Do you feel like you could have got away from it?  If so I assume you put him on QJ or 55..good for you.  If you were going to call all of your chips anyway, why do you think you made a bad decision going all in?  Wouldn't the rule of "if you are going to call all in for the rest of your chips why don't you just go all in and at least get some fold equity" apply?

I flopped a set yesterday, and bet a small amount.,wanting to keep a couple of people in. The turn braught a card that would give a possible straight with 2 connected cards. 9,10 i think. Anywyas. It's checked to me. I bet a larger bet. more than the pot this time. I get 1 caller. The river is a 9.. now it only takes a 10 for the straight. My opponent is 1st to act and he pushes all in. I had him covered, but i folded.and he showed me nothing., he bluffed me off my set. And i said. Thank you.and about 30 mins. later. he was broke. Moral of my lame story is, its ok to throw away a good hand if you feel comfortable enough to make it back later

That's weird... that's not why I'd ever throw a hand away, I'd throw it away if I thought I was beat, or maybe if I'm up against a ridiculous overbet. But throwing a hand away cause I'm comfortable I can make it back is strange.

How so?. I had a feeling i had him beat. he was calling my bets since pre-flop to flop. to turn.I had an idea of what he had., and then i switch that idea over to "he had ace ten" which was a mistake. i was baffled by why he pushed all in on the river after he had been check calling my bets. So i put him on the straight, which was stupid of me. And i thought to myself. i probably have this, but i'll let it go, because i know i will get this guy.Thats was my thought process.. Not. "hmm he just bet into me, but i have a set, and its probably good. but i'm not sure. .so i'l risk most of my money to find out the hard way".

Royal, I have no issue with your laydown... and I definately have no issue with that chick in your avatars laydown either... all I'm saying is laying down to a river bet onthe grounds that you are comfortable you can win it back later is weird to me. I don't have numbers of the bets or run of play or anything so of course I'm not judging your laydown... but I'd just rather you say that you felt there was a big enough chance he had the ten, rather than you simply laid down cause you knew you could get it back later... that's all...

Ohh. well in that case.. Yes. i layed it down because i put him on the 10..But in all fairness. We have to have that mind set, to make our laydowns easier. If i wasnt confident in my ability to outplay this guy, then i'd be screwed right??.. even if he was waaay better than me. I still have to be confident in my game.Thats all i was saying. sorry.

Ok, Now THERE's a moral of the story, Confidence in your abillities is crucial, especially in No-limit.

[trippkc 0]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

It wasn't a bad beat and it wasn't a bad play. After his 8000 bet he had about half his stack in the pot. You say you would have bet another 4-8k on the turn. If he re-raises, are you gonna fold with only 5-9k left in chips? The blinds were 1000-2000. If you think you can come back and win with 2-3XBB then by all means, make this fold, but I would guess most people would feel pot-commited and push in with 2pr.

[fatmanonguitar 0]

No to be nitpicky against you or anything... I think we're clear on most stuff... I just have to point this logic out cause I htink it's a poker flaw.When considering the pot size and pot odds etc, you should completely disregard "your investment". How much you've spent up to this point is meaningless, once your money is in the pot it is no longer your money, thinking of it as still your money can cause problems. The only things to consider here are the pot size and your stack size.  This doesn't change the idea behind your question at all fatman, it just changes the language a little:Given the pot size, your stack size and the likeliehood he may have you beat, would you be willing to lay down your hand if he bets.  If you answer no, then yes push all-in...

Well put. I agree that your judgement on whether or not you are beat is the most crucial decision-making criterion. But, doesn't the term "pot-committed" implicate what you have invested compared to what you have remaining? While I try not to let this "investment" influence me too much, are there circumstances where you are truly committed to the pot?

[elkang 0]

I am in a tourney at Hollywood, Shreveport and only the final 5 get paid, about 30 players left. I have a stack of 21,000 and am in big blind, blinds are 1000 - 2000. 134 players began.  I am dealt J-3 off, 3 players have limped i check.  Flop comes j-3-5 rainbow, I bet 8000, one caller  Turn comes Queen, I move all-in for 13,000 and am called  Caller has Q-JBad play or just a tough beat?

First of all, just ignore posts from the Denver guy Franky Bones.Pre-flop? Who can argue with your limp? GOOD.Flop? Two pair? You bet the POT. GOOD. You have a shot to win a 8K pot. All-in or check is not good. The call is dangerous because he has a jack or set or great draw - I would know much more if I knew his stack and play so far. The other play would have been the check-raise - since you're in EP (BB). Turn? Queen isn't so bad. I would have gone all-in too - $13K into a $24K pot is all you can do. His call means, you are probably beat. If you had checked - and he then went all-in - what were you going to do? Great laydown if you can - but that's hard.Too bad you didn't river your two outer to re-suck out on him.

[gadjet 11]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

It wasn't a bad beat and it wasn't a bad play. After his 8000 bet he had about half his stack in the pot. You say you would have bet another 4-8k on the turn. If he re-raises, are you gonna fold with only 5-9k left in chips? The blinds were 1000-2000. If you think you can come back and win with 2-3XBB then by all means, make this fold, but I would guess most people would feel pot-commited and push in with 2pr.

Following your own logic, on the flop, you know you are going to have to bet the turn to "protect" your hand, and that will make you pot committed. if that's the case, then you should recognize you are pot committed by hitting two pair on the flop, so you should push then for the extra fold equity... unless you're trying to rope him in...On a side note, 5-9k, blinds 1-2000, you'd have 2.5-4.5x BB left, and no that's not unthinkable to come back from. Of course you don't want to leave yourself in that situation if possible but I'd rather have 5-9k and a chair than be out.

[gadjet 11]

No to be nitpicky against you or anything... I think we're clear on most stuff... I just have to point this logic out cause I htink it's a poker flaw.When considering the pot size and pot odds etc, you should completely disregard "your investment". How much you've spent up to this point is meaningless, once your money is in the pot it is no longer your money, thinking of it as still your money can cause problems. The only things to consider here are the pot size and your stack size.  This doesn't change the idea behind your question at all fatman, it just changes the language a little:Given the pot size, your stack size and the likeliehood he may have you beat, would you be willing to lay down your hand if he bets.  If you answer no, then yes push all-in...

Well put. I agree that your judgement on whether or not you are beat is the most crucial decision-making criterion. But, doesn't the term "pot-committed" implicate what you have invested compared to what you have remaining? While I try not to let this "investment" influence me too much, are there circumstances where you are truly committed to the pot?

The term pot committed refers to the size of the pot, vs the size of your stack (or the bets you'll have to call) vs the odds and outs you have to win. The amount you've already put into that pot has nothing to do with whether you call or not. Lose attachment to your chips as soon as they go into the pot. One of the more common mistakes I hear is people saying, I've already put so much in, I have to call...i.e. If there is a $500 dollar pot you and one other player are left... you have 89 on a flop of: 6 7 2 , you count your outs to win the pot and compare it to the bets against you. You may have paid $250 heads up to get here, or you may have paid $50 and had 9 other people call and 8 of them fold... the money you've invested in the pot makes no difference to your decision...

[trippkc 0]

I love how going broke is the only option for some of you.   If I still have chips I am still in it.I didn't ask for commentary from the peanut gallery.  I asked the poster what he put the other guy on.  It requires an answer from him.  I was wondering what went through his mind as he went all in with a caller.2 pair??  so what.

It wasn't a bad beat and it wasn't a bad play. After his 8000 bet he had about half his stack in the pot. You say you would have bet another 4-8k on the turn. If he re-raises, are you gonna fold with only 5-9k left in chips? The blinds were 1000-2000. If you think you can come back and win with 2-3XBB then by all means, make this fold, but I would guess most people would feel pot-commited and push in with 2pr.

Following your own logic, on the flop, you know you are going to have to bet the turn to "protect" your hand, and that will make you pot committed. if that's the case, then you should recognize you are pot committed by hitting two pair on the flop, so you should push then for the extra fold equity... unless you're trying to rope him in...On a side note, 5-9k, blinds 1-2000, you'd have 2.5-4.5x BB left, and no that's not unthinkable to come back from. Of course you don't want to leave yourself in that situation if possible but I'd rather have 5-9k and a chair than be out.

Well, moving in on the flop might be the better play, but I was assuming play from after the turn. Also, betting 4000 into this pot on the turn is begging to get re-raised, so on the turn you either need to check if you think you're beat or go all-in. Betting a little is dumb because you are telling yourself you'll fold if you get re-raised, but what is the other player going to do, fold to a 4k bet into 24k pot? Suppose he just calls again on the turn, now what?

[trippkc 0]

No to be nitpicky against you or anything... I think we're clear on most stuff... I just have to point this logic out cause I htink it's a poker flaw.When considering the pot size and pot odds etc, you should completely disregard "your investment". How much you've spent up to this point is meaningless, once your money is in the pot it is no longer your money, thinking of it as still your money can cause problems. The only things to consider here are the pot size and your stack size.  This doesn't change the idea behind your question at all fatman, it just changes the language a little:Given the pot size, your stack size and the likeliehood he may have you beat, would you be willing to lay down your hand if he bets.  If you answer no, then yes push all-in...

Well put. I agree that your judgement on whether or not you are beat is the most crucial decision-making criterion. But, doesn't the term "pot-committed" implicate what you have invested compared to what you have remaining? While I try not to let this "investment" influence me too much, are there circumstances where you are truly committed to the pot?

The term pot committed refers to the size of the pot, vs the size of your stack (or the bets you'll have to call) vs the odds and outs you have to win. The amount you've already put into that pot has nothing to do with whether you call or not. Lose attachment to your chips as soon as they go into the pot. One of the more common mistakes I hear is people saying, I've already put so much in, I have to call...i.e. If there is a $500 dollar pot you and one other player are left... you have 89 on a flop of: 6 7 2 , you count your outs to win the pot and compare it to the bets against you. You may have paid $250 heads up to get here, or you may have paid $50 and had 9 other people call and 8 of them fold... the money you've invested in the pot makes no difference to your decision...

It shouldn't make a decision, but there is a difference between cash game play and tourney play. When you have about half your stack in the middle and folding the hand would leave you severely crippled, you have to decide whether or not you think you can come back and win with very few chips left. However, if you KNOW you are beat, then it doesn't matter what your hand is/how many chips you have, you need to muck it.

[gadjet 11]

The term pot committed refers to the size of the pot' date=' vs the size of your stack (or the bets you'll have to call) vs the odds and outs you have to win. The amount you've already put into that pot has nothing to do with whether you call or not. Lose attachment to your chips as soon as they go into the pot. One of the more common mistakes I hear is people saying' date=' I've already put so much in, I have to call...i.e. If there is a $500 dollar pot you and one other player are left... you have 89 on a flop of: 6 7 2 , you count your outs to win the pot and compare it to the bets against you. You may have paid $250 heads up to get here, or you may have paid $50 and had 9 other people call and 8 of them fold... the money you've invested in the pot makes no difference to your decision...[/quote'']It shouldn't make a decision, but there is a difference between cash game play and tourney play. When you have about half your stack in the middle and folding the hand would leave you severely crippled, you have to decide whether or not you think you can come back and win with very few chips left. However, if you KNOW you are beat, then it doesn't matter what your hand is/how many chips you have, you need to muck it.

No, the amount of chips YOU put in the pot is immaterial. The pot size and the chips you have left determine your play... your contributed portion of the pot should have nothing to do with your decision.

[NickTheKid 0]

Why go all in?I call bad play.. when he called your bet, I would have put him on a pair and at least the jack.

Maybe because he has hardly anything left? Pushing was a good play, my friend.

[trippkc 0]

The term pot committed refers to the size of the pot, vs the size of your stack (or the bets you'll have to call) vs the odds and outs you have to win. The amount you've already put into that pot has nothing to do with whether you call or not. Lose attachment to your chips as soon as they go into the pot. One of the more common mistakes I hear is people saying, I've already put so much in, I have to call...i.e. If there is a $500 dollar pot you and one other player are left... you have 89 on a flop of: 6 7 2 , you count your outs to win the pot and compare it to the bets against you. You may have paid $250 heads up to get here, or you may have paid $50 and had 9 other people call and 8 of them fold... the money you've invested in the pot makes no difference to your decision...

It shouldn't make a decision, but there is a difference between cash game play and tourney play. When you have about half your stack in the middle and folding the hand would leave you severely crippled, you have to decide whether or not you think you can come back and win with very few chips left. However, if you KNOW you are beat, then it doesn't matter what your hand is/how many chips you have, you need to muck it.

No, the amount of chips YOU put in the pot is immaterial. The pot size and the chips you have left determine your play... your contributed portion of the pot should have nothing to do with your decision.

Well, to use your example from earlier, if there is a $500 pot, there is a BIG difference in how you're gonna play it if you are heads up for $250 or $50 and 8 other fold. The ammount you put in the pot affects how much money you have left, so while you shouldn't be thinking about how much YOU PUT in there, the fact is that there will be a difference in $200 for how much you have left. In the OP situation, if he had bet say $5333.33 (for arguments sake) and got 2 callers, the pot size would be the same, but he would have more money remaining so he would be able to get away from the hand easier. Basically you are coming to the same conclusion, it is just 2 different ways of thinking about it.

[Royal_Tour 0]

The term pot committed refers to the size of the pot, vs the size of your stack (or the bets you'll have to call) vs the odds and outs you have to win. The amount you've already put into that pot has nothing to do with whether you call or not. Lose attachment to your chips as soon as they go into the pot. One of the more common mistakes I hear is people saying, I've already put so much in, I have to call...i.e. If there is a $500 dollar pot you and one other player are left... you have 89 on a flop of: 6 7 2 , you count your outs to win the pot and compare it to the bets against you. You may have paid $250 heads up to get here, or you may have paid $50 and had 9 other people call and 8 of them fold... the money you've invested in the pot makes no difference to your decision...

It shouldn't make a decision, but there is a difference between cash game play and tourney play. When you have about half your stack in the middle and folding the hand would leave you severely crippled, you have to decide whether or not you think you can come back and win with very few chips left. However, if you KNOW you are beat, then it doesn't matter what your hand is/how many chips you have, you need to muck it.

No, the amount of chips YOU put in the pot is immaterial. The pot size and the chips you have left determine your play... your contributed portion of the pot should have nothing to do with your decision.

Well, to use your example from earlier, if there is a $500 pot, there is a BIG difference in how you're gonna play it if you are heads up for $250 or $50 and 8 other fold. The ammount you put in the pot affects how much money you have left, so while you shouldn't be thinking about how much YOU PUT in there, the fact is that there will be a difference in $200 for how much you have left. In the OP situation, if he had bet say $6000 and got 2 callers, the pot size would be the same, but he would have more money remaining so he would be able to get away from the hand easier. Basically you are coming to the same conclusion, it is just 2 different ways of thinking about it.

Hes trying to tell you that you should not be making this call simply because of the amount u invested. Thats not "pot odds". You need to weigh in the factors on wether this will be a good call. Not "call because i spent half my stack"