Tournament Hand

[Jordan 1]

akakashenenkenke,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0/thread

[Gallo 1]

CONFIRMED

[akashenk 12]

I understand you want to be able to make the easiest decision possible, fine. I've been guilty of that at times. But not every decision is going to be easy, but over time decisions will become easier when you learn to try and take the most optimal line. And the only way to learn is by listening to guys who have the results to show it. You say you don't care who these guys are and what they've done, if you or anyone else wants to learn then you probably should because that's one of the best ways to get better at this game.---------If you're going to c/r flop, then you might as well just jam, it's the easiest way to find out if you're ahead or not.

Thanks for the pep talk, gallo, but none of you have provided any evidence that suggests c/c is the optimum line, other than "we think it is so, and since we all think alike, it must be so". I think at this point my detractors probably lack the level of humility and/or bravery required to give me any credit. So I'm certainly not expecting anything like that. However, I continue to be amused and I guess somewhat saddened that supposed astute, learned, smart-guys can't make a single logical argument in support of their position. It all falls back to.. you're a moron, you're an idiot, what you say is stupid, we know what we're talking about, so much so that we don't even have to elaborate beyond that, etc, etc, etc.Given your attempt to summarize what you feel are the main arguments aginast c/r, I want to believe you are a serious person, at least in this discussion, and not a clown like so many of the others. In response, I spent a fairly long time explaining why I disagree with your arguments, point by point. If c/c is so clearly the better play, It would be SO EASY for any one of you to take what I say in these arguments and prove why I'm wrong. You could take what I state as fact and show that it is not a fact. You could take my assumptions and show why they are wrong. You could take my conclusions, and show why they are wrong. But no one seems capable of doing any of that. It all comes back to.. listen to us, we know what we're talking about. Now, I don't know what the actual optimum line is here, and since we are really only debating a single decision... call or raise, I suppose in a vaccuum I or my detractors are both 50% likely to be right. I am willing to say you guys all might be right. But I am not willing to say you have provided any compelling reason for that conclusion, and until you do, I have no reason to stray from my convictions about the c/r line.

[Gallo 1]

You're losing an extra 4k in chips when you take the line you do and gathering no extra information. That should probably be enough to detract from taking the c/r line. But you keep ignoring that fact. These guys have given you every example why its bad and why c/c is optimal. This is why so many of the people have grown increasingly frustrated with you because you fail to listen and see why the c/r line you suggest is just so lol bad. And youve contradicted yourself a few times as has been pointed out. Instead, you'd rather be condescending towards them because of how old they are and the difference between live and online play. I understand how difficult it is to say, "You know what guys, I'm just being stubborn, I see what you guys are saying and why. I'm sorry.". After that these guys would be able to help out more and answer almost any question in that. There's no shame in admitting you're wrong.Honestly, pretty sure everyone is done with this and just hope that others who do read this thread learn from it.

[donk4life 34]

Look, more douchey posts when the person replying to you wasn't being a douche at all. go figure.

[donk4life 34]

Things akashenk will say in reply to Gallo's latest post:1.) He will thank him in a condescending manner2.) Call out those damn Internet kids and their circle-jerk mentality3.) Continue to say he's put forth solid reasoning after solid reasoning on why c/r this flop is best4.) Once again say no one has put forth an argument that clearly explains why his play is flawed5.) More than likely call out those damn Internet kids one more time6.) Maybe say that results aren't everything, and that even though some people in here have been both successful online and live pros, they lack the wisdom he's gained over the years through playing his 1/2 casino game on the weekends in some shitty town in the middle of nowhere.I can't guarantee number 6 will happen, but it's worth including regardless.There akashenk, you don't even have to type out long, boring repetitive paragraphs anymore.

[akashenk 12]

You're losing an extra 4k in chips when you take the line you do and gathering no extra information. That should probably be enough to detract from taking the c/r line. But you keep ignoring that fact. These guys have given you every example why its bad and why c/c is optimal. This is why so many of the people have grown increasingly frustrated with you because you fail to listen and see why the c/r line you suggest is just so lol bad. And youve contradicted yourself a few times as has been pointed out. Instead, you'd rather be condescending towards them because of how old they are and the difference between live and online play. I understand how difficult it is to say, "You know what guys, I'm just being stubborn, I see what you guys are saying and why. I'm sorry.". After that these guys would be able to help out more and answer almost any question in that. There's no shame in admitting you're wrong.Honestly, pretty sure everyone is done with this and just hope that others who do read this thread learn from it.

I've asked irishguy and donk this question to no avail,. Pehaps I wlll ask you now, gallo. Explain to me what it means when, following a c/c check, our opponent bets 6K, or 12K , or shoves? Tell me, based on your years of experience, and expertise, what does our opponent have in these three situations. What is your read?BTW, I forgot to mention I found your statement "I understand you want to be able to make the easiest decision possible, fine. I've been guilty of that at times" pretty interesting. So am I to uderstand it that you view trying put yourself in a position to make easy decisions akin to some sort of crime, in other words, something to be avoided?

[akashenk 12]

Things akashenk will say in reply to Gallo's latest post:1.) He will thank him in a condescending manner2.) Call out those damn Internet kids and their circle-jerk mentality3.) Continue to say he's put forth solid reasoning after solid reasoning on why c/r this flop is best4.) Once again say no one has put forth an argument that clearly explains why his play is flawed5.) More than likely call out those damn Internet kids one more time6.) Maybe say that results aren't everything, and that even though some people in here have been both successful online and live pros, they lack the wisdom he's gained over the years through playing his 1/2 casino game on the weekends in some shitty town in the middle of nowhere.I can't guarantee number 6 will happen, but it's worth including regardless.There akashenk, you don't even have to type out long, boring repetitive paragraphs anymore.

FYI, you keep using the word condescending. I do not think it means what you think it means. Condescending means acting like you are better than someone else. Unlike you and others, at no point have I claimed to be or know better than anyone. In fact, to the contrary, I have openly admitted that you likely have more experience, success, whatever in poker than I.Now, on the other hand, I have at times been sarcastic, which means I have used sharp or ironic language to poke fun at the absurdities of your posts... just like I am doing here.

[Merby 3]

Alright, I've caught up (this is a lie: I skimmed too much of the last 13 pages and not enough in-depth reading).I decided to make a full-fledged mathematical analysis of the hand. It's long and I have broken it down by spoilering the different options, as well as the mathematics justifying everything.Flop: Ac 9d 7cOur hand: Ad TdOn the flop, the pot is 7,000

The blinds are 600+1200, together with our 2600 raise and button's 2600 call). All together, that is:600 + 1200 + 2600 + 2600 = 7000

We have a stack of 27,400 and villain coversWe choose to check and villain bets 4,000. So the pot is now 11,000

The original pot before the bet is 7,000. The villain bet 4,000, so there are now7000 + 4000 = 11000chips in the pot.

We have three choices: Raise, call, or fold:1) We choose to raise

We need to put 4,000 chips into the pot to call his bet. That leaves us with 23,400 chips to choose how large to raise.

27400 - 4000 = 23400

We need to at least match his raise size, so we can raise as little as 4,000 more to as much as 23,400 more. Let's look at the two extremes:1a) We minraise to 8000

We now have 19,400 chips.

23400 - 4000 = 19400

Result:

The villain has a set of nines, so we have put 8,000 chips on the flop into the pot when we are 8.28% to win. With these odds, villain either shoves or chooses to slowplay, neither of which is optimal for us because we are 8.28% to win the hand.

 

1a) We check-shove

We now have 0 chips.

23400 - 23400 = 0

Result:

The villain has a set of nines, so we have put our tournament life on the line, in as a 8.28% dog to win.

 

 

2) We choose to call

The villain has a set of nines, so we put an extra 4,000 chips into the pot when we are 8.28% to win.

3) We choose to fold

We lose the hand, but the villain had a set of nines, so we don't put any more chips into the pot when we were behind. We go into the next hand of the tournament with 27,400 chips to try to win with.

CONCLUSION: Optimal Flop Strategy:

We should check-fold. Everyone else in this thread was wrong.

[akashenk 12]

Alright, I've caught up (this is a lie: I skimmed too much of the last 13 pages and not enough in-depth reading).CONCLUSION: Optimal Flop Strategy:Everyone else in this thread was wrong.

... actually, I have several posts which discuss the advantage of c/f over c/c and perhaps even c/r (I am still on the fence on that). I'm glad someone else agrees. As for your mathematical analysis, it seems good other than your typo for how many chips we would have left after folding post c/c. The only thing I would add is, this analyzes the situation as it was in reality, not the situation as we knew it to be. If we always knew what our opponent had from the beginning, it would be easy to pick the optimal play.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I too am glad someone else agrees.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

[TrueAce13 18]

folding pre or open folding on the flop is 100% the best play in this hand

[king_tanner 84]

tl/dr

[looshle 6]

Akashenk, I can't tell if you're a joke account or not. I suspect that you are and for those reasons I'm not going to post a long winded answer as to why c/c is infinitely better than c/r.I have played MTTs for a living for almost 10 years now. I've gone broke a few times along the way and have been forced to look at every situation without ego, with an open mind and constantly being self aware.C/C here is by far the best play and not even close to any other option. The only time I could ever think about c/r is to induce a 3b jam by someone I have a very rare dynamic with, which basically means almost never.

[HighwayStar 8]

Yep c/f is close to optimal when the opponents range is so well defined. Good analysis Merby.

[Jordan 1]

hey douches.in case you forgothttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0/threadnow stop feeding the troll.

[CobaltBlue 662]

When did Phil Hellmuth join FCP?

[akashenk 12]

Akashenk, I can't tell if you're a joke account or not. I suspect that you are and for those reasons I'm not going to post a long winded answer as to why c/c is infinitely better than c/r.I have played MTTs for a living for almost 10 years now. I've gone broke a few times along the way and have been forced to look at every situation without ego, with an open mind and constantly being self aware.C/C here is by far the best play and not even close to any other option. The only time I could ever think about c/r is to induce a 3b jam by someone I have a very rare dynamic with, which basically means almost never.

You guys always seem to have an excuse for why you're not going to explain why you think c/c is better than c/r. Why is that? I mean, you just spent something like a hundred words questioning my motivations, providing a partial history of your life, describing your metaphysical condition and stating your theseis that you don't like the c/r play... and not a single shred of information about why, not a single assault on the various points I have made throughout the thread.Of course, this sort of self-interested intellectualism is nothing new to this thread, and I would guess overall forum as well. If the logical arguments for why c/r is such a bad a play were so strong, then I don't think we would be hearing about people's level of experience, or success, or state of zen clarity. We wouldn't be finding out about how many degrees the have, or how many admirers they have, etc., etc. Surely you all must realize that bringing these things up is a certain idicator of how weak your argument is, or at least how poorly you are able to convey it.Strange that a lawyer never stands up before a judge and says, "Excuse me, your honor, you should rule in my favor because I have been practicing law for 10 years, have lost a few cases in that time and am now completely in tune and aware of the law." You never hear an engineer say "I don't need to show you why this building will not fall down. I am a great engineer. Everyone says so."

[donk4life 34]

Because at this point when every argument has been laid out for you perfectly as to why c/ring is horrible, you refuse to accept it. Therefore, there's a need to whip out your credentials because in this particular instance it comes down to experience and success. And I'm sorry, someone who has played MTTs as long as looshle, has been as successful as looshle, and has probably gone through every situation imaginable when it comes to tournaments, is probably someone whose advice and strat I would trust more than someone like you who grinds 1/2 with their social security check and curses those damn Internet kids for not playing real poker.And when EVERYONE in this god damn thread has told you multiple times you are wrong, and give you a multitude of reasons why, you don't think that maybe, just maybe you're being a fucktard at this point and now are just arguing to argue?And LOL if you really believe that math analysis is real, really proves your intelligence right there.

[Gallo 1]

Lol

[irishguy 14]

Every point you've made about your 'logic' has been refuted over and over and yet you continue to claim it hasn't. Every question has been answered often multiple times but then a million pages pass and you claim they haven't been. You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop .When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic. You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on... Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally

[Mercury69 3]

It's like debating a Republican

[akashenk 12]

Because at this point when every argument has been laid out for you perfectly as to why c/ring is horrible, you refuse to accept it. Therefore, there's a need to whip out your credentials because in this particular instance it comes down to experience and success. And I'm sorry, someone who has played MTTs as long as looshle, has been as successful as looshle, and has probably gone through every situation imaginable when it comes to tournaments, is probably someone whose advice and strat I would trust more than someone like you who grinds 1/2 with their social security check and curses those damn Internet kids for not playing real poker.And when EVERYONE in this god damn thread has told you multiple times you are wrong, and give you a multitude of reasons why, you don't think that maybe, just maybe you're being a fucktard at this point and now are just arguing to argue?And LOL if you really believe that math analysis is real, really proves your intelligence right there.

I will disregard your vapid and uninspired attempts to insult for the moment, and say this. For those posters who have provided an actual line of logic in support of their preferred line, I have responded in kind. Virtually all have ignored my counter-arguments, chosing rather to hurl their own flavor of insults at the mere suggestion that someone not accept their point of view as gospel. The only person who has engaged in a mostly serious debate is irishguy. Although our discussions have ventured far afield at times from the primary issues surrounding the c/r or c/c question, I think we have basically come to a place where our disagreement is one of playing style and aversion to risk. I'm satisfied with that.As for the rest of you.. you either defend your position in some fashion beyond "we know what we're talking about, which is why we're right", or you disengage. To that end, I would welcome you providing some sort of summary of your "evidence". If you don't feel like spelling it out, then, by all means, point out all of these posts which I have failed to respond to where you make some sort of conclusive argument for why c/r is so bad.

[Jordan 1]

I will disregard your vapid and uninspired attempts to insult for the moment, and say this. For those posters who have provided an actual line of logic in support of their preferred line, I have responded in kind. Virtually all have ignored my counter-arguments, chosing rather to hurl their own flavor of insults at the mere suggestion that someone not accept their point of view as gospel. The only person who has engaged in a mostly serious debate is irishguy. Although our discussions have ventured far afield at times from the primary issues surrounding the c/r or c/c question, I think we have basically come to a place where our disagreement is one of playing style and aversion to risk. I'm satisfied with that.As for the rest of you.. you either defend your position in some fashion beyond "we know what we're talking about, which is why we're right", or you disengage. To that end, I would welcome you providing some sort of summary of your "evidence". If you don't feel like speling it out, then, by all means, point out all of these posts which I have failed to respond to where you make some sort of conclusive argument for why c/r is so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0/threadnow stop feeding the troll.ill try a third time.