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I think in an overall poker strategy it is unnecessary. That doesn't mean it's not optimal with certain hands and against certain villains. Just not with AT pretty much ever. I don't think you encounter 1 opponent in 1000 where check raising AT on that flop is the best play. I was saying playing big draws and stronger 2 pair hands this way is potentially ok. AT does not fit in either of those.There are 2 big factors working against c/r AT here.1. We do a whole load of folding out worse, getting called by better. This is pretty much ABC poker strat for anyone with a clue about ranges. Try not to do either of these things.2. When we raised pre and c/r flop we have put in 10 bb of our initial 25. 40% of your stack is a LOT to put in and turn top pair decent kicker into a fold of some sort. If this is anywhere near a money bubble of any kind this is going to compound the bad decision in $ terms.I was thinking what stack sizes c/r AT might be best with and it is simply none. When you are much deeper I think c/c is always a better option once you check. You're ending up in many better situations with more playable stack/pot ratios when you do that.In this exact hand, yes the turn spot is awkward, but it's not always going to be. I think around 60% of the deck doesn't change your hand vs the board vs your opponent too much. On a turn card like this (and tbh, the rest of the deck) it's really not that bad. It's almost always going to be a close spot between fold and shove on the turn, either way we're not losing much. It's tough to say what is best on the flop. Personally b/c > c/c >>>b/f>>>>>>>>> rest. If you start c/f top pair decent kicker CO vs BTN you are regularly going to be accidentally exploited by all but the most passive of fish.Something I can be completely sure of....open shoving preflop is profitable but absolutely not optimal. R/x is always gonna net more. Open shoving is gonna net a really low amount of chips with a silly amount of variance.

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I think in an overall poker strategy it is unnecessary. That doesn't mean it's not optimal with certain hands and against certain villains. Just not with AT pretty much ever. I don't think you encounter 1 opponent in 1000 where check raising AT on that flop is the best play. I was saying playing big draws and stronger 2 pair hands this way is potentially ok. AT does not fit in either of those.There are 2 big factors working against c/r AT here.1. We do a whole load of folding out worse, getting called by better. This is pretty much ABC poker strat for anyone with a clue about ranges. Try not to do either of these things.2. When we raised pre and c/r flop we have put in 10 bb of our initial 25. 40% of your stack is a LOT to put in and turn top pair decent kicker into a fold of some sort. If this is anywhere near a money bubble of any kind this is going to compound the bad decision in $ terms.I was thinking what stack sizes c/r AT might be best with and it is simply none. When you are much deeper I think c/c is always a better option once you check. You're ending up in many better situations with more playable stack/pot ratios when you do that.In this exact hand, yes the turn spot is awkward, but it's not always going to be. I think around 60% of the deck doesn't change your hand vs the board vs your opponent too much. On a turn card like this (and tbh, the rest of the deck) it's really not that bad. It's almost always going to be a close spot between fold and shove on the turn, either way we're not losing much. It's tough to say what is best on the flop. Personally b/c > c/c >>>b/f>>>>>>>>> rest. If you start c/f top pair decent kicker CO vs BTN you are regularly going to be accidentally exploited by all but the most passive of fish.Something I can be completely sure of....open shoving preflop is profitable but absolutely not optimal. R/x is always gonna net more. Open shoving is gonna net a really low amount of chips with a silly amount of variance.
As for open shoving, it is certainly a higher variance play. I only mention it because, out of position, there's so much going against us in this hand, particularly if we flop so mediocre, as we did. Most people in this thread have pretty much advocated some form of, let's put 6K into the pot and then fold on the turn when our opponent bets. While that may be safer and hold less variance, I don't know that it is a particualrly great alternative, long term. Of course, if the flop came A or 10 high with two diamonds, or some variation of that, then obviosly having a slower play pre-flop would have been better.regarding your two bullet points:1) In a vaccuum, I agree with you. But as I have made clear in my other posts, the c/r is not meant to be a value play (ie get value from worse hands), and its not really meant to be a straight bluff (though some better hands could fold here). Its meant to affect the action on the turn in a way that is beneficial for us. As I have mentioned, it is essentially a defensive bet. I believe we have besically come to a point where you guys, or most of you, do not think it will affect the play on the turn and I do. I don't know who is right or wrong in that respect, I guess it all depends on what sorts of players you typically play against and what your particular experience is.2) I'm a little dubious of b/c here for the same reasons I am dubious of c/c. You say there's nothing that could hit the turn that is really scary, and that might be true.. but there's nothing that can hit the turn that is really going to help us, unless we somehow make it to the river. Since we are out of position, you are once agan relying on your opponent to bet in just the right way (or not bet at all) on the turn so you can make an easy decision. I will say this, though, if you lead the flop and your opponent min raises, I think calling is ok because it puts you pretty much in the same position as you would have been with c/r. If the opponent min raised on a draw (as would be a typical play), they will probably not bet the turn, perhaps even if they hit it. There's your free card. If they have a big hand, they can bet the turn and you can then fold just like you would have had you c/r. I will add one thing here, though. c/r after a pre-flop raise could make the turn check confuse your opponent. Are you going for another check raise? Are you weak? What's gong on? Confusing your opponent is always a good thing, IMO. And since almost all of you think its a horrible play to c/r with A10 here, I assume you would definitely not put me on that kind of hand here. Disguising our hand also as benefits. If we b/c the flop (min raise in this case, as I don't think I am b/c much more), then I think our turn check looks a bit weaker than in the other scenario.Some more thoughts on your point.. 40% is a lot to put in with the c/r, and that's part of the point. I think that looks like we are committed, although in my mind we are not (I think you disagree here, but I don't know that its worth debating as that will largely depend on the structure, other stacks, what the money means, etc.) The thing you discount is that the alternative, which everyone seems to support, is to put 25% of your stack in and just hope for the best (in other words.. see what happens). Now I do realize that if our opponent shoves the flop on us, or catches something on the turn and shoves, then we lose that extra 15% of our stack when otherwise we would not have. But I think that is a small price to pay for knowing we are folding the worst hand when and if we do, and having a better shot at catching up from behind or getting to a showdwon with the best hand. Again, in my mind 19BB is not particualry different from 15BB from a remaining stack standpoint. They are both borderline shove/fold stack sizes and will play pretty much the same going forward.Now, as far as c/f the flop which I advocate above c/c, and perhaps c/r.. I don't know that this play is something that can be used against me. This particular situation doesn't come up too often, so I'm not sure what kind of databank people can have on me, even if I prefer it. And, like I have also said previously, I might make a completely different play when the stacks are deeper. However, the answer is simply to balance my play off with some c/r, or even c/c in similar situations in the future. After all, I have never said c/c is a horrible play. I just prefer others for the variety of reasons I stated in this thread.The hilarious thing about this thread is, I think we can see that anything you do on this flop, particularly if the first thing you do is check, is quite a gray area. I believe there are reasons for one decision being better than another, and other people feel the same way about their preferred line. However, I don't think any of us can say definitively that their play is the mathematically optimum choice since all of our arguments all center around what we feel certain players WOULD do on the turn, and that is definitely a murky area. I'm certain someone with some resources (yes, a super computer, Irsihguy) could actually do a mathematical analysis, making sure to account for various opponent predelictions and starting hands, but we certainly don't have access to something like that at this point in this debate.Maybe in your experience, players are perfectly willing to shut down on the turn unless they have a monster, and maybe in my experience, players are quite wiling to continue to lead the hand in position when you have shown not interest to do so. Having these sorts of disparate experiences mght make us come to different conclusions as to what the best play is for obvious reasons. I'm ok with that. I'm not sure why so many here are so strident in their beliefs to think they should not be ok with that. To be honest, that is more disturbing to me then the fact that a large number of you guys disagree with my logic and/or line of play. That has larger repercussions that go well beyond poker.
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Irish Guy: "The draw talk is there because you've constantly stated he's shoving on the c r with two pairs, sets, combo draws and some draws etc and saying you didn't want to be flipping for stacks-if we think it's flipping we should be calling our shove with the price.."I disagree. I'm not looking to flip for my tournament life for that price. If I were, I would simply have shoved pre-flop and at least gotten some fold-equity. If you're looking to flip, then be my guest.as for the rest, our debate has really come down to a simple fact. You believe the villain will act on the turn in the exact same manner whether we c/r or c/c, which makes the raise pointless. I believe the villain will not. I can tell you if I were the villain, I'd be wiling to bet just about my whole range on that turn if you c/c/c, if only to try and protect a marginal hand or get more value on a semi-bluff. You have said you are folding to a reasonable turn bet. Great. You lose. Thanks for handing over 25% of your stack without a fight.
The draw talk only comes into play because really our only reason to raise is with the intent to get it in... I don't believe that villain plays the turn the same regardless of whether we c c or c r -however its a possibility. I believe our line gives us the same or more information for less chips.'the get more value on a semi bluff' doesn't make sense..:now maybe you and villain would double barrel your whole range-that's fair-it's dumb but fair and if you believe that to be the likelihood than you should be advocating we play the turn differently then c f...cus if villian puts this much of his stack in on the turn with weak pairs, draws, air etc our optimal play vs his range is to get it in.That really should've been your first post in this thread 'I'd get it in on the turn cus I think villain double barrels half his stack with his entire pre flop range'If we are bluffed and we lose 22% of our stack so be it..:on to the next one it sure beats losing 35% cus we raised to see where we're at in the hand.
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The draw talk only comes into play because really our only reason to raise is with the intent to get it in...I don't believe that villain plays the turn the same regardless of whether we c c or c r -however its a possibility. I believe our line gives us the same or more information for less chips.'the get more value on a semi bluff' doesn't make sense..:now maybe you and villain would double barrel your whole range-that's fair-it's dumb but fair and if you believe that to be the likelihood than you should be advocating we play the turn differently then c f...cus if villian puts this much of his stack in on the turn with weak pairs, draws, air etc our optimal play vs his range is to get it in.That really should've been your first post in this thread 'I'd get it in on the turn cus I think villain double barrels half his stack with his entire pre flop range'If we are bluffed and we lose 22% of our stack so be it..:on to the next one it sure beats losing 35% cus we raised to see where we're at in the hand.
irishguy, once again you have made a post where you take like 30% of one my sentences and make an argument the fits your theseis. At not point in this hand am I looking to get it all in except on the river when I've caught my flush. If you intend to go all in at some point earlier, then fine. That's you prerogative.I don't how you think there is any circumstance under the sun where you get MORE info by c/c than c/r. The opponent has no chance to reveal the strength of his hand and you open the door to him being able to do pretty much anything on the turn. I will ask this for like the 10th time. What does a bet of all in, or full pot, or half pot on the turn mean from our opponent? I belive the reason you refuse to answer this question despite a claim of somehow being able to "read" the hand based on the bet-size, is that you can't. The truth is, unless you have some other way to read the opponent (physical tell, history, them flashing a card by accident, etc), then you are in the dark when he makes this bet. The only thing you can say is.. am I willing to call or not, and in most cases, you guys have been saying no. Ok, by definition, you wil be folding the best hand a certain percentage of the time, which will definitely be a bigger percentage than in the c/r scenario. And you will be folding a hand which may have won by the river. But you did save 4K, so you have that going for you.As for your last sentence, I disagree. I feel the chips are worth the info and the alteration in our opponent's actions on the turn, and since you have said you would call 6K on the turn to chase the flush, you obviosuly think that investing even more than 35% of our stack to try and see a river is a fine play.
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irishguy, once again you have made a post where you take like 30% of one my sentences and make an argument the fits your theseis. At not point in this hand am I looking to get it all in except on the river when I've caught my flush. If you intend to go all in at some point earlier, then fine. That's you prerogative.I don't how you think there is any circumstance under the sun where you get MORE info by c/c than c/r. The opponent has no chance to reveal the strength of his hand and you open the door to him being able to do pretty much anything on the turn. I will ask this for like the 10th time. What does a bet of all in, or full pot, or half pot on the turn mean from our opponent? I belive the reason you refuse to answer this question despite a claim of somehow being able to "read" the hand based on the bet-size, is that you can't. The truth is, unless you have some other way to read the opponent (physical tell, history, them flashing a card by accident, etc), then you are in the dark when he makes this bet. The only thing you can say is.. am I willing to call or not, and in most cases, you guys have been saying no. Ok, by definition, you wil be folding the best hand a certain percentage of the time, which will definitely be a bigger percentage than in the c/r scenario. And you will be folding a hand which may have won by the river. But you did save 4K, so you have that going for you.As for your last sentence, I disagree. I feel the chips are worth the info and the alteration in our opponent's actions on the turn, and since you have said you would call 6K on the turn to chase the flush, you obviosuly think that investing even more than 35% of our stack to try and see a river is a fine play.
The draw talk continues cus you've said repeatedly that you don't want to flip-point being you've put so much in the pot if you think your flipping you should be calling....enough said. The entire difference comes down to the fact you believe that villain is double barreling more then half of his stack with his entire range-most of us dont feel this is very likely.. I've answered the question to what I'd do based on different sized turn bets enough but yes if villain bet 6k I'm at least calling-I'm sorry you don't understand the importance of pot odds.I'm a million times more comfortable putting in an additional 6k get over 3 to 1 drawing to the nuts rather then an extra 4k to see where I'm at...If we never gain info by c c we should be c r every hand...and every villain would double barrel or triple barrel 100% of there range I'd be check calling the whole way every hand...
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After this thread, I want AT as a hand as much as possible. I think every possible angle has been covered. There is no hand that is better documented than AT.

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The draw talk continues cus you've said repeatedly that you don't want to flip-point being you've put so much in the pot if you think your flipping you should be calling....enough said.The entire difference comes down to the fact you believe that villain is double barreling more then half of his stack with his entire range-most of us dont feel this is very likely..I've answered the question to what I'd do based on different sized turn bets enough but yes if villain bet 6k I'm at least calling-I'm sorry you don't understand the importance of pot odds.I'm a million times more comfortable putting in an additional 6k get over 3 to 1 drawing to the nuts rather then an extra 4k to see where I'm at...If we never gain info by c c we should be c r every hand...and every villain would double barrel or triple barrel 100% of there range I'd be check calling the whole way every hand...
My way... by the turn you know the villain doesn't have a monster and is not likely to have a big draw. And you are likely to get a free card to chase the river, having only invested 4K. And you have no reason to ever put any more chips into this pot in a losing situation.Your way... by the turn, you have no idea what the villain has, but you do know you will fold to almost any bet not knowing what he has (I guess this is the information you have gained), Or you will be forced to pay even more chips to make a borderline call to chase the river, and even if you catch what looks like a great card, like an A, 10, or even 7d, you still won't know if you are ahead.My way.. increased chance of winning the hand.... decreased chance of making a mistake and barfing chips inot the pot.Your way... decreased chance of winning the hand... increased chance of bleeding off more chips.The only thing you risk in my strategy is the loss of 4K extra when the villain happened to flop super strong. That's it. Your way, you risk folding the best hand when the villain decides to actaully play poker instead of conceding the pot to you out of the kindness of his heart. Or you are forced to make a really marginal call for more of your chips. Or maybe you find yourself making a mistake and going home.Oh, and lest I forget, my way also has you winning the pot on the flop from way behind X% of the time. While your way has you winning the pot on the flop from way behind 0% of the time. X > 0. Always. Just sayin.P.S, Its interesting you are a million times more comfortable putting in an extra 6K on the turn with 12% chance of rivering the nuts, than putting in an extra 4K on the flop. I suppose those chips do lose value the later it is in the (hand) tournament.P.P.S, any time your opponent is still in the hand after the flop, whether you got their by c/c or c/r or leadng or whatever, you have gained some info... that your opponent is interested in winning the hand. I guess this is the info you guys keep mentioning that you gain by c/c the flop.
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My way... by the turn you know the villain doesn't have a monster and is not likely to have a big draw. And you are likely to get a free card to chase the river, having only invested 4K. And you have no reason to ever put any more chips into this pot in a losing situation.Your way... by the turn, you have no idea what the villain has, but you do know you will fold to almost any bet not knowing what he has (I guess this is the information you have gained), Or you will be forced to pay even more chips to make a borderline call to chase the river, and even if you catch what looks like a great card, like an A, 10, or even 7d, you still won't know if you are ahead.My way.. increased chance of winning the hand.... decreased chance of making a mistake and barfing chips inot the pot.Your way... decreased chance of winning the hand... increased chance of bleeding off more chips.The only thing you risk in my strategy is the loss of 4K extra when the villain happened to flop super strong. That's it. Your way, you risk folding the best hand when the villain decides to actaully play poker instead of conceding the pot to you out of the kindness of his heart. Or you are forced to make a really marginal call for more of your chips. Or maybe you find yourself making a mistake and going home.Oh, and lest I forget, my way also has you winning the pot on the flop from way behind X% of the time. While your way has you winning the pot on the flop from way behind 0% of the time. X > 0. Always. Just sayin.P.S, Its interesting you are a million times more comfortable putting in an extra 6K on the turn with 12% chance of rivering the nuts, than putting in an extra 4K on the flop. I suppose those chips do lose value the later it is in the (hand) tournament.P.P.S, any time your opponent is still in the hand after the flop, whether you got their by c/c or c/r or leadng or whatever, you have gained some info... that your opponent is interested in winning the hand. I guess this is the info you guys keep mentioning that you gain by c/c the flop.
Your way you win against hands your behind a very very small percent of the time.Your way you know he's got a monster on the flop-which you don't when combo draws, draws are probably a significant portion of his shoving range. AGAIN we believe villain isnt betting this much on the turn with anything we are ahead of!! You do-you believe that every villain double barrels for more then half there stack with 100% of there range-6k with 12% please use a calculator-if all our flush outs are good- we are 20% if our straight outs are good too we 26% ugh math...**** if only 8 of our outs are good we are 18%...Why even look at flops? Turns or rivers? Your AT is ahead of his preflop range just close yours eyes and check call as he three barrels his stack with his entire range..
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After this thread, I want AT as a hand as much as possible. I think every possible angle has been covered. There is no hand that is better documented than AT.
the funny thing is we haven't really delved too deeply into all of the other issues with this hand, which could theoreticallly be even more fertile for discusiion. Pre flop, lead the flop, lead the turn, river play, etc. I will try not to open that pandora's box.
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This level of brilliance reminds me of the 2 + 2 thread where Cunningham had folded AA to Ivey-Ivey had flopped a set. The consensus was Ivey would play a large range the same as the set so someone pokerstoved AA vs any two cards lol

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This level of brilliance reminds me of the 2 + 2 thread where Cunningham had folded AA to Ivey-Ivey had flopped a set. The consensus was Ivey would play a large range the same as the set so someone pokerstoved AA vs any two cards lol
Soul read imo
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Your way you win against hands your behind a very very small percent of the time.Your way you know he's got a monster on the flop-which you don't when combo draws, draws are probably a significant portion of his shoving range.AGAIN we believe villain isnt betting this much on the turn with anything we are ahead of!! You do-you believe that every villain double barrels for more then half there stack with 100% of there range-6k with 12% please use a calculator-if all our flush outs are good- we are 20% if our straight outs are good too we 26% ugh math...**** if only 8 of our outs are good we are 18%...Why even look at flops? Turns or rivers? Your AT is ahead of his preflop range just close yours eyes and check call as he three barrels his stack with his entire range..
We have 0 outs to the nut straight, We have 9 outs to the nut flush, but the nut flush is not necessarily the nuts, of course,, so we only have 6 outs to the nuts which, is ~13% (sorry my rounding was off previously). If your going to make a claim about drawing to the nuts and what your odds are, then you need to draw to the nuts.As for the rest, we really are arguing in circles. You say our opponent is just as likely to bet the turn with whatever he has in the c/c situation as the c/r situation. I say he is not, which makes your 6K turn call a more expensive propositiion than my 4K flop raise. Great. There's just no way way we are going to agree on that, so there's no point continuing down that line.As for your last line, this is basically the argument "we are such great poker players, that we'll just slow play the hand and re-evaluate on the turn and let our tremendous skill advantage carry the day". Well, I don't know how skilled our hero is in this thread, but his re-evaluation led him out the door. And I don't know how skilled highwaystar is, but if I read his posts correctly, then his re-evaluation would also be leading him out the door. Now, maybe your re-evaluation would not be so unfortunate. Maybe you'll only lose 6K instead of your whole stack. But who knows? In the meantime, your re-evaluation had little to do with what our opponent had, or how he played the hand. It had 100% to do with what we had and how averse we are to risk. That's a fine way to play poker... make marginal calls when we don't even know for sure what the nuts might be, or fold hands when we have no idea if we are ahead, behind, or whatever when we don't feel like taking a risk.
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We have 0 outs to the nut straight, We have 9 outs to the nut flush, but the nut flush is not necessarily the nuts, of course,, so we only have 6 outs to the nuts which, is ~13% (sorry my rounding was off previously). If your going to make a claim about drawing to the nuts and what your odds are, then you need to draw to the nuts.As for the rest, we really are arguing in circles. You say our opponent is just as likely to bet the turn with whatever he has in the c/c situation as the c/r situation. I say he is not, which makes your 6K turn call a more expensive propositiion than my 4K flop raise. Great. There's just no way way we are going to agree on that, so there's no point continuing down that line.As for your last line, this is basically the argument "we are such great poker players, that we'll just slow play the hand and re-evaluate on the turn and let our tremendous skill advantage carry the day". Well, I don't know how skilled our hero is in this thread, but his re-evaluation led him out the door. And I don't know how skilled highwaystar is, but if I read his posts correctly, then his re-evaluation would also be leading him out the door. Now, maybe your re-evaluation would not be so unfortunate. Maybe you'll only lose 6K instead of your whole stack. But who knows? In the meantime, your re-evaluation had little to do with what our opponent had, or how he played the hand. It had 100% to do with what we had and how averse we are to risk. That's a fine way to play poker... make marginal calls when we don't even know for sure what the nuts might be, or fold hands when we have no idea if we are ahead, behind, or whatever when we don't feel like taking a risk.
It was clear what I meant with nuts but ya your totally right we should only calculate our equity vs the absolute worst case scenario-that's solid. (which completely discounts the fact that hit he has a gut shot, gut shot straight flush draw we are actually ahead but oh wait he'll barrel the river with 100% of his range so we never know)I'm not sure if English is your first language or not but I've said over and over again that I don't believe villains actions are necessarily the same on the turn after a c c or c r I've said it's possible. I've also said i don't see a villain not putting another chip in after being checked to on the turn and river. You say he will only put more money in if he improves and you'll only put more in if you do..so he only bets if he hits his flush and you only bet if you hit yours but you don't get paid anyways cus he's never putting another chip in unimproved..because after your awesome c r another decision will never need to be made."'make marginal calls when we don't even know for sure what the nuts might be, or fold hands when we have no idea if we are ahead, behind or whatever..." Ya instead we should just RAISE when we don't even know for sure what the nuts might be, or if we are ahead, behind or whatever...Solid lessons in this thread: villains will double barrel over 60% of there stack with their entire range. We should raise for info-only calculate odds vs worst case scenario- our only way to narrow a villains range is by raising..:good stuff...
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Holy **** I will never understand why inexperienced players looking to 'learn' can be so dense when pretty much every player that has more experience/success than them disagrees with their logic.You say villain will slow down if we c/r. You say villain will always have us beat if he jams over our c/r. You say villain will double barrel more often if we c/c than if we c/r. You say that since we're deep in a tournament, villain is very unlikely to fire off big portions of his stack with marginal holdings. You're wrong. Donk, Trueace, and highwaystar have played a ton of online poker successfully pre black-friday and know from experience that none of this is true. I mainly play online cash games but I've played enough tournaments to know that they're right as well. It's fine to ask questions when your logic doesn't line up with someone elses, but it's a pretty big mistake to disagree with more experienced players when they tell you how they expect other players to react.

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Holy **** I will never understand why inexperienced players looking to 'learn' can be so dense when pretty much every player that has more experience/success than them disagrees with their logic.You say villain will slow down if we c/r. You say villain will always have us beat if he jams over our c/r. You say villain will double barrel more often if we c/c than if we c/r. You say that since we're deep in a tournament, villain is very unlikely to fire off big portions of his stack with marginal holdings. You're wrong. Donk, Trueace, and highwaystar have played a ton of online poker successfully pre black-friday and know from experience that none of this is true. I mainly play online cash games but I've played enough tournaments to know that they're right as well. It's fine to ask questions when your logic doesn't line up with someone elses, but it's a pretty big mistake to disagree with more experienced players when they tell you how they expect other players to react.
I hate to break up a good old fashioned johnson-measuring contest (or would what you boys have been engaging in be better described as a circle jerk?), but anyhow, I am fairly certain that I have been playing live poker.. you know the kind where you actually have to sit across from real villains instead of avatars... since back when y'all were still wetting your bed. So, I think it would be fair to say I have more experience in that arena than you. However, notice I have not mentioned that up till this point. The problem with you guys, besides the complete lack of respect for other people and the need to seek the protection of a pack like some sort of species of canine, is that the technological age we live in has warped your sense of reality. I guess when you spend the better portion of your waking life staring at animations on a video monitor, this comes as no surprise. Online poker and the volume of play it has allowed you in recent years, has provided experience and knowledge and, maybe even some success, but not much wisdom. The wisdom piece which you are completely lacking is the understanding that no amount of experience and knowledge and success is going to make you right in a single hand of poker, particularly when you are discussing the hand in the vacuum of a message board. The only thing you can rely on is logic. And the logic you rely on can’t be.. “I am knowledgeable and experienced and successful, and this makes me right.” This post of yours is classic. You fire off a bunch of statements, some of the which can be accurately attributed to points I have made in this thread, and others which cannot, and then you wrap it up with the old “we’re right and you’re wrong because we know better” argument. Now, maybe in the day-to-day life within the pack/circle jerk, this sort of thinking is all you need to get by. And maybe that’s enough for you. But allow me to, perhaps, surprise you and say that I 100% agree with your first statement. You will never understand, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to you or anyone.
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Hey I've been pretty successful post black friday too. Dick.
Lies. I assumed you retired after the binking the milestone :)btw I'm now positive Royal Tour got a second account.
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The wisdom piece which you are completely lacking is the understanding that no amount of experience and knowledge and success is going to make you right in a single hand of poker, particularly when you are discussing the hand in the vacuum of a message board.
Why? You can fairly easily "solve" an awful lot of tournament hands (mostly preflop spots, all in calls and river calls) mathematically and conclusively work out which play is best. In this exact hand it would be very time-consuming..For situations like this, you can break down your opponents ranges, apply good tournament fundamentals and use past experience to come up with a damned good answer most of the time. Whilst it may not be the best play vs everyone, it is the best you can make with the information you have available (in this case, not very much). There are some spots which are really close (I would argue with this one not so much) where there isn't much between decisions and your action doesnt matter much since the expectation from it is going to be pretty similar.I only skipread the first few pages of this thread but it looked to me that the discussion was fairly respectful, at least until the discussion started going around in circles.Yes it can get a bit circlejerky but that's just the nature of an online forum. I really don't think it's been too bad in here at all.Anyway this hand has seriously been discussed to death and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I really don't see what can be added at this point.
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Lies. I assumed you retired after the binking the milestone :)btw I'm now positive Royal Tour got a second account.
Grinding tons and tons of hyper turbo sngs with MTTs on the side. Love me some variance and rakeback.
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Grinding tons and tons of hyper turbo sngs with MTTs on the side. Love me some variance and rakeback.
Would rather stab my eyes out than grind these.
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Why? You can fairly easily "solve" an awful lot of tournament hands (mostly preflop spots, all in calls and river calls) mathematically and conclusively work out which play is best. In this exact hand it would be very time-consuming..For situations like this, you can break down your opponents ranges, apply good tournament fundamentals and use past experience to come up with a damned good answer most of the time. Whilst it may not be the best play vs everyone, it is the best you can make with the information you have available (in this case, not very much). There are some spots which are really close (I would argue with this one not so much) where there isn't much between decisions and your action doesnt matter much since the expectation from it is going to be pretty similar.I only skipread the first few pages of this thread but it looked to me that the discussion was fairly respectful, at least until the discussion started going around in circles.Yes it can get a bit circlejerky but that's just the nature of an online forum. I really don't think it's been too bad in here at all.Anyway this hand has seriously been discussed to death and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I really don't see what can be added at this point.
“Why? You can fairly easily "solve" an awful lot of tournament hands (mostly preflop spots, all in calls and river calls) mathematically and conclusively work out which play is best. In this exact hand it would be very time-consuming.”I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I think a thorough mathematical analysis comparing c/r to c/c WOULD require quite an effort. If that’s what you mean, then I agree, and it supports my supposition that those on your side of the argument shouldn’t be so strident. Outside of a thorough mathematical analysis, we are left to only discuss the hand logically.As for the tenor of the discussion, this is always a relative matter. I have no idea how it compares to other discussions or to what you are used to. All I can say is, by my observation there is a tremendous amount of misplaced ball-washing going on here. And then, of course, there is the hyper-ventilating that has been displayed by some. Intellectually, I understand it. These folks are used to being surrounded by enablers who either lack the intelligence to offer a contrarian opinion or wouldn’t dare do so for risk of being demoted in the social strata they depend on. So, in the end, I get it. Someone comes along who dares to offer up a viewpoint that doesn’t match their sensibilities and they get all bent out of shape about it. That’s fine. As they venture further out into the real world where the greater society has less of a tendency to worship them, they may learn to adjust. If not, they will either manage to live comfortably in the bubble they have created for themselves, or the bubble will burst, as bubbles often do.As it stands, I am happy to continue to argue why the c/r is better than c/c in this scenario. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean all opinions are created equal. If one would like to prove that my argument, or opinion, is invalid, they would simply have to show that my assumptions are wrong, or unimportant. I assume that winning a small pot with a marginal hand without having to try very hard is a good thing. I assume preventing our opponent from bluffing us off a hand which is way ahead is a good thing. I assume that having a greater opportunity to catch up from behind, while putting fewer chips into the pot is a good thing. I assume that taking actions which make my future decisions in the hand easy so that I never find myself making a mistake for my tournament life is a good thing. I assume that risking an additional 4K in chips is worth all of these other benefits. By c/c the flop, you have 0% of winning the hand on the flop. By c/c flop, you do nothing to prevent your opponent in position to continue and bet you off on the turn. By c/c the flop, you force yourself to pay more (6K, at least, it seems) to see the river and try to catch your draw, and you are more likely to have fewer outs than you think. By c/c the flop, you open yourself up to having to make a really hard decision on the turn, and perhaps making a crucial mistake. I really don’t see how any of this is debatable, but feel free to continue to try and do so.
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By c/c the flop, you have 0% of winning the hand on the flop. By c/c flop, you do nothing to prevent your opponent in position to continue and bet you off on the turn. By c/c the flop, you force yourself to pay more (6K, at least, it seems) to see the river and try to catch your draw, and you are more likely to have fewer outs than you think. By c/c the flop, you open yourself up to having to make a really hard decision on the turn, and perhaps making a crucial mistake. I really don’t see how any of this is debatable, but feel free to continue to try and do so.
The reason I don't like a c/r is because I like bet/folding more. Bet/fold accomplishes pretty much everything a c/r does, we get called by worse hands, and we lose less when we are beat. We don't even need to bet that big. 2800-3200 is plenty. And I'd do this if I thought villain was passive and doesn't get out of line that much. If I had seen him be more aggro and spazzy, then I'd check with the plan to check/call to get him to bluff. Based on the reads OP provided, bet/fold sounds like the best option.
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Hey guys, added together we've probably played millions of hands of poker, studied the game at a high level for years, and continuously try to make ourselves better. But, we'll never have the wisdom of some dolt who has been grinding his 1/2 live game at some shitty Indian casino for years.So there's no pointing in arguing with him, we just aren't on that level.

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