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Turn Trips, Now What?

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Exactly, so it's in our best interest to let him think he's value betting here if he has a hand like that. If we raise he's not allowed to pot control anymore and will more than likely fold. Given that with the fact that there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, it's in our best interest to allow to continue to bet on the river. You're advocating for trying to play for stacks in this spot, and that's not what we should be doing. We need to be getting the most value out of our hand possible, by raising we are losing value. Let him do the bidding for us. He's not going to put in another cent unless he has a 9 or a boat (which is very unlikely here) if we raise.
Ha! Closet bridge player!

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Isn't folding PF pretty standard for A9?
With everyone's stack size, and the fact there are antes, I think raising here is okay with A9s if you're comfortable post flop. Folding isn't horrible though.No one really has a resteal shoving stack, and if the shortstack SB shoves his less than 5BB stack, it's a pretty clear call I think. Also, if anyone does happen to shove for whatever reason, it's a pretty easy fold considering they're shoving on an UTG+1's open.

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I don't think we are getting any more value on the river.I mean from villain's perspective, what does he beat once we call the turn?
You don't think the Villain will ever bluff the river?

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it's unlikely imo.
And you don't think he will call any rivers if checked to you.I mean you advocated shoving the turn because he may "hero call" but you don't think he would make the hero call on the river if he checks to you?BTW I think he will bluff rivers because "omg he just called my turn bet...theres no way he has a 9 so now I can REP a 9 myself!!!"

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just a thought:is it bad to shove the turn just to reduce variance?(in a situation where we are rarely getting more value)
Meh not really at this stage of a tournament.I do think plenty of people will donk something like 77/88/67/68 on this turn and some will call it off, some won't. Calling allows you to get value from those hands + his bluffs on ths river.

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And you don't think he will call any rivers if checked to you.I mean you advocated shoving the turn because he may "hero call" but you don't think he would make the hero call on the river if he checks to you?BTW I think he will bluff rivers because "omg he just called my turn bet...theres no way he has a 9 so now I can REP a 9 myself!!!"
lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?

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I don't think we are getting any more value on the river.I mean from villain's perspective, what does he beat once we call the turn?
77/88, 65, 6x, 5x, even something like T8 or a float. But his tendency to donk turn with a made hand compared to air/a shitty drawy is going to be very skewed towards the draw.
just a thought:is it bad to shove the turn just to reduce variance?(in a situation where we are rarely getting more value)
Meh, can't be terrible. But I think there's a ton more value to be had in this spot.
lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?
Err we'd be folding unless we decide to spazz out. So hands like mid pocket pairs have absolutely no reason to lead the turn because it just folds out almost all of our worse hands and then inflates the pot OOP. That's the opposite of pot control.

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A call on the turn given the EP raise and our chip stack looks very strong so i really don't expect villain to bluff the river. I think villain could hero call us with worse(67,77,88...) if we shove the turn. if an 8 or 7 comes on the river we don't know where we are at (we could lose some value or get bluffed if he shoves).
lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?
These two points totally contradict one another.Shoving is pretty much never an option if you think he will be hero calling.Nutzz...your posts are REALLY jumping all over the place while you try and defend your initial "no" statement.

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These two points totally contradict one another.Shoving is pretty much never an option if you think he will be hero calling.Nutzz...your posts are REALLY jumping all over the place while you try and defend your initial "no" statement.
my point was that villain could perceive a shove on the turn as a bluff (since we could do it with A7,A8,AJ, AQ, AK...) and call with worse.If we call the turn, we almost never have those hands. (in other words, we are almost never bluffing which makes it difficult to extract value)

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But there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, which makes shoving less profitable. And if he has a 9 then we're more than likely getting his stack on the river anyway.You're too caught up with the fact that a villain will "hero call' with a medium pocket pair here, when in actuality his line in no way represents some type of medium pair type hand.

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nice answer, why not?
I actually agree with the no... what play do you make on the river if a 7 or 8 comes off and he shoves? Can you get away? DoubtfulIf he has the straight already... [b]you're not getting away[/b].... He was the pre flop from second position... If he has 10's or better.... he might get away... but more than likely at this level you're going to get paid off.Clearly any other 9 is paying you off.... and if he has a boat well then... you're not getting away..The point is... what hand do you put him on besides 10's or better that the money isn't going in here?May as well get it in now and snub out any shot of hitting a draw he may have had.

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I actually agree with the no... what play do you make on the river if a 7 or 8 comes off and he shoves? Can you get away? DoubtfulIf he has the straight already... [b]you're not getting away[/b].... He was the pre flop from second position... If he has 10's or better.... he might get away... but more than likely at this level you're going to get paid off.Clearly any other 9 is paying you off.... and if he has a boat well then... you're not getting away..The point is... what hand do you put him on besides 10's or better that the money isn't going in here?May as well get it in now and snub out any shot of hitting a draw he may have had.
Meant to say "he was the preflop raiser from second position"

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Sure, lets shove because we're afraid of an opponent hitting an 8 outer on the river.
Not disputing your comment, but you say that like hitting an 8 outer doesn't happen every other hand (which it does, but you're right in saying you should not play into that fear). It's just a risk that you have to take.

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Not disputing your comment, but you say that like hitting an 8 outer doesn't happen every other hand (which it does, but you're right in saying you should not play into that fear). It's just a risk that you have to take.
Assuming an opponent has nothing but a straight draw here, in the long run allowing him to bluff the turn and river will be more profitable for us, because, you know, we are a significant favorite to a straight draw.

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Full Tilt Poker $16,500 Guarantee No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t150/t300 Blinds + t25 - 9 players - View hand 835849The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterSB: t1362 M = 2.02BB: t12657 M = 18.75UTG: t14829 M = 21.97Hero (UTG+1): t9888 M = 14.65UTG+2: t12705 M = 18.82MP1: t7915 M = 11.73MP2: t18297 M = 27.11CO: t24963 M = 36.98BTN: t9851 M = 14.59Pre Flop: (t675) Hero is UTG+1 with A :4h 9 :5c1 fold, Hero raises to t799, 6 folds, BB calls t499Flop: (t1973) 5 :3h 6 :ts 9 :qh(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t1140, BB calls t1140Turn: (t4253) 9 :club:(2 players)BB bets t1998Final Pot: t4253call and let him bluff river
Alright, so I haven't posted yet on this hand...but am just gonna state what donk has said. Coming from a person who opens more than a lot of the players on this forum, given stack sizes, this is 100% a fine open to try to steal blinds and antes. Flop: perfectly fine imoTurn: Given villains sizing on the turn it really seems that he is betting as a bluff here and trying to get cheap to pick off our cbetting range (all our overs, etc). If he was betting for value, imo...i think he would bet a bit bigger on the turn to set up a bigger bet on the river, to try to play for stacks. Given that a lot of his range is worse hands. We can call, have him be like "wtf" oop and have to bluff the river to try to win the pot. And another thing with just flatting the turn (this is more stated towards nutz), if he does have his mid pair like, 77, 88, 44 or w/e type hands. If the river blanks and he checks for showdown, if he believes we are bluffing this river, he will also call off with worse. By raising and playing for stacks, he needs to have a 9 (which we can still play for stacks on the river) or a boat....oh yeah and the straight. But nothing like mid pairs are gonna play for stacks. He can't have any pair besides maybeeee 10s in his range b/c he is 3betting everything else. So yeah. Flatting this turn is ubbberrrr better and will get a lot more value

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Alright, so I haven't posted yet on this hand...but am just gonna state what donk has said. Coming from a person who opens more than a lot of the players on this forum, given stack sizes, this is 100% a fine open to try to steal blinds and antes. Flop: perfectly fine imoTurn: Given villains sizing on the turn it really seems that he is betting as a bluff here and trying to get cheap to pick off our cbetting range (all our overs, etc). If he was betting for value, imo...i think he would bet a bit bigger on the turn to set up a bigger bet on the river, to try to play for stacks. Given that a lot of his range is worse hands. We can call, have him be like "wtf" oop and have to bluff the river to try to win the pot. And another thing with just flatting the turn (this is more stated towards nutz), if he does have his mid pair like, 77, 88, 44 or w/e type hands. If the river blanks and he checks for showdown, if he believes we are bluffing this river, he will also call off with worse. By raising and playing for stacks, he needs to have a 9 (which we can still play for stacks on the river) or a boat....oh yeah and the straight. But nothing like mid pairs are gonna play for stacks. He can't have any pair besides maybeeee 10s in his range b/c he is 3betting everything else. So yeah. Flatting this turn is ubbberrrr better and will get a lot more value
sparknotes, flat turn.

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Assuming an opponent has nothing but a straight draw here, in the long run allowing him to bluff the turn and river will be more profitable for us, because, you know, we are a significant favorite to a straight draw.
Calling is definitely an option.... I just think that statement is more true in a ring game.... where as in a tournament... if the straight card comes off 1/5 times.... but every time it cost you your tournament life... The situation changes a bit? no?

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Alright, so I haven't posted yet on this hand...but am just gonna state what donk has said. Coming from a person who opens more than a lot of the players on this forum, given stack sizes, this is 100% a fine open to try to steal blinds and antes. Flop: perfectly fine imoTurn: Given villains sizing on the turn it really seems that he is betting as a bluff here and trying to get cheap to pick off our cbetting range (all our overs, etc). If he was betting for value, imo...i think he would bet a bit bigger on the turn to set up a bigger bet on the river, to try to play for stacks. Given that a lot of his range is worse hands. We can call, have him be like "wtf" oop and have to bluff the river to try to win the pot. And another thing with just flatting the turn (this is more stated towards nutz), if he does have his mid pair like, 77, 88, 44 or w/e type hands. If the river blanks and he checks for showdown, if he believes we are bluffing this river, he will also call off with worse. By raising and playing for stacks, he needs to have a 9 (which we can still play for stacks on the river) or a boat....oh yeah and the straight. But nothing like mid pairs are gonna play for stacks. He can't have any pair besides maybeeee 10s in his range b/c he is 3betting everything else. So yeah. Flatting this turn is ubbberrrr better and will get a lot more value
I looked at this hand wrong... you are right. When I looked at it the first time I saw the villain as the preflop raiser and the lead out on the flop... which left 10's JJ QQ KK AA in his range for me... you're right... not 3 betting and then not raising on the flop pretty much takes them out of the equation.. nice work.

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Calling is definitely an option.... I just think that statement is more true in a ring game.... where as in a tournament... if the straight card comes off 1/5 times.... but every time it cost you your tournament life... The situation changes a bit? no?
So we're suppose to shove here because 20 percent of the time a bad river card falls for us that may cost us our tournament life?

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The table appears to be fairly deep, and if they're not playing back at him a lot then raising with a9s there is fine.
we'll agree to disagree. i'm a fairly laggy player but i just don't like the position here for a raise with a9s pf unless i kno the table is super weak. call it a preference thing i guess. i think it's fairly close either way (2.5x raise/fold). i don't think the debate here should be made about the pf play, so i'll leave it alone.
But there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, which makes shoving less profitable. And if he has a 9 then we're more than likely getting his stack on the river anyway.You're too caught up with the fact that a villain will "hero call' with a medium pocket pair here, when in actuality his line in no way represents some type of medium pair type hand.
you are spot on here, anyone who shoves the turn is def losing value and is making a -EV play. TrueAce stated it well also.

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I talked this hand over with Fluff last night and he said I should be shoving turn. I know everyone has said to flat him on the turn, so I'm going to get him to post his thoughts.

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