gobears 0 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 So River Rock has one NL table (1-3) and I sit down. Table is very passive and lots of callers preflop. Villain in this hand has won the most money at the table and has me covered. He has shown down one hand where he bet on all streets with J10 on xx10Jx board and seems competent (unlike the rest of the table). I've only seen about two orbits when this hand occurs.UTG straddles for $6 and villain min-raises to $12 from UTG+1. It folds to me and I find black aces in the SB and raise to $45. UTG folds and villain calls. Flop is KQJ with two diamonds. I have $120 left. What's our line? Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Shove Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Shovereally?I probably check and make my decision based on what he does. It's a terrible flop. We probably aren't folding ever, but a >PSB shove is only getting called by hands that beat us against a competent opponent, unless he has exactly AK, and a thinking player should be able to find a fold with AK on that flop, given the action. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I dunno if there's much difference between check/shove and just shove, but w/e. You can't fold and the board sucks. Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 At least a check gives him a small chance of hanging himself with a mid-pair or something. Unless he has a random T or Ax diamonds, we aren't really protecting against much.I don't know, shoving here is just: "I've got you beat, get out", or "you hit your set/2-pair, here's the rest of my stack" Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 really?I probably check and make my decision based on what he does. It's a terrible flop. We probably aren't folding ever, but a >PSB shove is only getting called by hands that beat us against a competent opponent, unless he has exactly AK, and a thinking player should be able to find a fold with AK on that flop, given the action.We have barely more than the pot left it's not a huge overbet and this isn't online play we get called by all sorts of LOL including flush draws. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 So River Rock has one NL table (1-3) and I sit down. Table is very passive and lots of callers preflop. Villain in this hand has won the most money at the table and has me covered. He has shown down one hand where he bet on all streets with J10 on xx10Jx board and seems competent (unlike the rest of the table). I've only seen about two orbits when this hand occurs.UTG straddles for $6 and villain min-raises to $12 from UTG+1. It folds to me and I find black aces in the SB and raise to $45. UTG folds and villain calls. Flop is KQJ with two diamonds. I have $120 left. What's our line?LOLCheck shove / open shove whatever .... we essentially played this hand out preflop and AK is a huge huge possibility, so I think the rest of our money should probably get in the pot. There is nothing we like about this, but we don't always have to like it. Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well I shoved, villain tanked and said "I think you have a set of queens" and folded AdKx face up. Decent fold I suppose (anyone else at the table would have snap called based on the comments from the other players after he showed) Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well I shoved, villain tanked and said "I think you have a set of queens" and folded AdKx face up. Decent fold I suppose (anyone else at the table would have snap called based on the comments from the other players after he showed)That sucks. Villain makes terrible fold here imo Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 What would we be shoving that villain beats if we call? I think it's a terrific play by AK personally. Our 3bet range has him crushed on this flop. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 What would we be shoving that villain beats if we call? I think it's a terrific play by AK personally. Our 3bet range has him crushed on this flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 What would we be shoving that villain beats if we call? I think it's a terrific play by AK personally. Our 3bet range has him crushed on this flop.hate to be results-oriented, but isn't this a perfect reason why checking > shoving against a competent villain? He can easily fold every hand that we beat if we shove. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 hate to be results-oriented, but isn't this a perfect reason why checking > shoving against a competent villain? He can easily fold every hand that we beat if we shove.and easily check behind Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I originally wrote that I'd check/shove but I don't think I'm check/shoving any of my range here. I don't think check/shoving is best with any set/straight/two pair. Risking a check back with those hands is reallllllllly detrimental. So I think just shoving your whole value range and some bluffs is fine and then c/f the rest of it. Like I think I'm just c/f AQ here. Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 and easily check behindso? What are we afraid of seeing on the turn?at least we plant a seed of doubt and there's a chance he stacks off with AK/AQ/AJ/TT, which are realistically the only hands that we are hoping to get value from, no? Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I originally wrote that I'd check/shove but I don't think I'm check/shoving any of my range here. I don't think check/shoving is best with any set/straight/two pair. Risking a check back with those hands is reallllllllly detrimental. So I think just shoving your whole value range and some bluffs is fine and then c/f the rest of it. Like I think I'm just c/f AQ here.I'd shove my set/2-pair hands here too, for value. The value of AA is significantly less so here. I don't think we need to worry about balancing our shoving range in this case, in a small sample size against a live opponent we probably will never see again. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 shovel quickly and hope for a fold or naked 10. Yes bad flop but use first in vigor and probably take pot down now, make this easy for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 shovel quickly and hope for a fold or naked 10. Yes bad flop but use first in vigor and probably take pot down now, make this easy for yourself.This is a tournament concept not applicable to either cash play or postflop play. Re-read Harrington you'll see what I mean. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 That sucks. Villain makes terrible fold here imowhat hands fit OPs range doesnt beat AK? TT maybe?? thats it.Calling with AK your almost praying for a chop. Open shove is fine. Remember, just because we have AA doesnt mean we should expect a big pot. I would be happy taking it down on this flop. Link to post Share on other sites
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