I Am So Bad ... I Need Help With This Part Of My Game

[dna4ever 2]

Live NLHE tournament, overall pretty good players, 2 people I had never played before30 people, 6000T starting chips, 25 minute levels, GREAT structure. we are in level 7 about 3 hours in, 400/800 with 75 ante.I have a pretty tight image, not having to show my weaker hands and only tabling monsters.I've chipped up to about 19K and we are down to 11, final table bubble, pays top 5. I am 2nd in chips at my table. The only guy that has me covered is one of the guys I have never played with, but he seems to be pretty standard player from what I've seen. He has about 23KI pick up AdAh UTG and make it 2100 to go (my standard 2 1/2 bb'ish opening raise). Only caller is button, guy I don't know well.6 people at our table, 5 at the other table so 5850T in the pot.Flop is pretty scary, QT5, rainbow. I fire 4000T and after about 90 seconds he smooth calls.HERE IS WHERE I NEED HELP WITH MY GAME.I have 6100 invested, about 13K behind. pot now 13850TAt this point I really have no idea what he has. I'm not sure if he is slow playing a set or hit a big piece with a draw or what. AQ is possible and I think he repops pre with KK.Turn comes pretty bad Jc leaving board QT5J and the action on me ..... I am so bad in these situations .....

[Dubey 1,035]

Probably check/shove. You only have 1 PSB left so folding isn't really an option. You could shove too but it will be tough for him to call with worse, so I'd rather give him some rope here.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Disagree, I shove here. Since you're putting it in when villain bets anyway, I shove now so that he can't take a free card with the many pair + straight draws that are out there. KQ, KJ, KT etc - KJ seems particularly a likely hand here.If he pulled ahead with QJ or JT youre getting all the money in when he bets anyway, so that part of his range is irrelevant. We just have to play it properly for the part of his range that is still behind but has draws, and shoving is the way to do that. If he folds to the turn shove, he wasn't going to give you any more action on a check anyway (he would have to have like 77-99 or something), so we don't lose much value here. Keep in mind that villains LOVE to "put you on AK" so might float this flop with lower PP, but now that they don't even beat AK there is no chance they will bluff with them.

[qnshustler 0]

Disagree, I shove here. Since you're putting it in when villain bets anyway, I shove now so that he can't take a free card with the many pair + straight draws that are out there. KQ, KJ, KT etc - KJ seems particularly a likely hand here.If he pulled ahead with QJ or JT youre getting all the money in when he bets anyway, so that part of his range is irrelevant. We just have to play it properly for the part of his range that is still behind but has draws, and shoving is the way to do that. If he folds to the turn shove, he wasn't going to give you any more action on a check anyway (he would have to have like 77-99 or something), so we don't lose much value here. Keep in mind that villains LOVE to "put you on AK" so might float this flop with lower PP, but now that they don't even beat AK there is no chance they will bluff with them.

+1

[cdipierr 0]

I was going to post earlier about shoving, but decided not to. Then I thought about it some more and I can't see us ever folding to his bet if we check, so we may as well shove. It'll be annoying when he turns over QJ, but what can you do.

[dna4ever 2]

Here are some more thoughts from my head ....It's 6 handed, villains range is going to be wider.If I check I am never calling.If any more of my chips go into the pot I will be the one putting them in there first.I am either CRUSHED or CRUSHING and no way to find out unless I bet which commits myself.If I check, how many times am I losing value by folding the best hand.What Can I beat that he calls that flop with? AQ/KQ is about it, KK he would repop pre I'm sure of it.I was in top 3 in chips, do I want to go broke with 1 pair? On the reverse side of things, if I win this pot I have 25% of chips going into the final table.I just really hate this spot and feel this is a weak area of my play.

[cdipierr 0]

You can beat KJ, which has to be in his range. You also don't know for sure that he's calling if you shove. One thing to remember is that just because YOU know you have AA, doesn't mean HE knows you have AA. He'll call off here with things you can beat I'd suspect. Check-folding seems way too weak.

[flintsword 4]

Live NLHE tournament, overall pretty good players, 2 people I had never played before30 people, 6000T starting chips, 25 minute levels, GREAT structure. we are in level 7 about 3 hours in, 400/800 with 75 ante.I have a pretty tight image, not having to show my weaker hands and only tabling monsters.I've chipped up to about 19K and we are down to 11, final table bubble, pays top 5. I am 2nd in chips at my table. The only guy that has me covered is one of the guys I have never played with, but he seems to be pretty standard player from what I've seen. He has about 23KI pick up AdAh UTG and make it 2100 to go (my standard 2 1/2 bb'ish opening raise). Only caller is button, guy I don't know well.6 people at our table, 5 at the other table so 5850T in the pot.Flop is pretty scary, QT5, rainbow. I fire 4000T and after about 90 seconds he smooth calls.HERE IS WHERE I NEED HELP WITH MY GAME.I have 6100 invested, about 13K behind. pot now 13850TAt this point I really have no idea what he has. I'm not sure if he is slow playing a set or hit a big piece with a draw or what. AQ is possible and I think he repops pre with KK.Turn comes pretty bad Jc leaving board QT5J and the action on me ..... I am so bad in these situations .....

What kind of range does this player defend his BB with a call from earlier in the tournament? We will assume you do not know.If his range to call in the BB is (for example) Qx (x>9) + pocket pairs down to 88.His possible hands pre-flop are: QT (9). QJ (12), QQ (3), QK (12), QA (6), KT (12), KJ (16), KK (6), KA (8), JJ (6), TT (6), 99 (6), 88 (6) for a total of 108 hands.QQ (3) & KK (6) it is fair to say he would raise preflop. For the sake of completeness and incorporating a weasel factor we will include QQ and KK into the univers of hands for a total of 108 hands. On a practical note I generally consider that maniac loose players defend with virtually anything, loose players defend with about 150 hands, and tight aggressive players about 100 to 75 hands. This is just an off-the-cuff number I use to determine the percentage chance I am facing a hand that beats me.In your example, out of 108 hands that your opponent can defend with, the hands that Kvork you on the flop are QT (9), QQ (3), & TT (6), or 18 hands out of 108 (17% roughly).On the turn, the Jc hitting the board affects the total number of hands he could be holding His possible hands post-flop are: QT (9). QJ (6), QQ (3), QK (12), QA (6), KT (12), KJ (8), KK (6), KA (8), JJ (1), TT (6), 99 (6), 88 (6) for a total of 89 hands.In your example, out of 108 hands that your opponent can defend with, the hands that Kvork you on the turn of the Jc are QT (9), JJ (1), TT (6), QJ (6), & KA (8), or now 30 hands out of 89 (33% roughly).The flop looks ugly but considering a reasonable range of defense hands, you are still ahead. The turn creates a lot of ugly draws AND you are losing one third of the time. Depending on your capacity for risk, you have choices, but they are player dependant, and you said that you do not know a lot about the player in question.Personally, given AA UTG in a final table, I take the position that the money is going in. As one of the chip leaders, you have an edge but if you feel an all in will get a caller, you should shove preflop. If all you win are the blinds, so be it. The added table image and fear factor when you show your aces will more than make up for the lost income trying to raise small, get a caller, and win a bigger pot. This kind of slow playing is precisely the way to get your aces cracked. Since the turn is the Jc, the most obv hand for you to raise UTG is AK and you can absolutely represent a st8. The chances of your opponent holding AK is lower than normal because two aces reside in your hand so all in on the turn with a 66% edge and the fear from your opponent that you hold AK should win it for you.Even if your opponent has K9 ... there is a small chance he will lay it down to a percieved higher str8. Even if he calls you have three outs ... thin, I know, but they are there. If you had gone all in that winning K9 would have hit the muck at supersonic speeds.I hope this way of looking at your problem was helpful. If I made a calculation mistake, apologies but I am typing fast & loose here in my office. A small error will not change the percentages significantly.

[Fade2241 0]

At this point I really have no idea what he has.

This is a problem. You need to be able to put him on a range before you can make an educated decision.Anyone care to list probable ranges + math?Edit: lol ^^As stated you pretty much have to get it in here, especially short handed. Tough spot tho as you pointed out.

[HighwayStar 8]

Nasty but just shove.

[dna4ever 2]

This is a problem. You need to be able to put him on a range before you can make an educated decision.Anyone care to list probable ranges + math?Edit: lol ^^As stated you pretty much have to get it in here, especially short handed. Tough spot tho as you pointed out.

It's interesting to see the math range broken out, that helps.I obviously put him on a wide range of hands and feel he could float that flop with a variety of hands including an underpair to try to either spike a turn or take it away on the turn should I check.The most likely range of hands I put him on I felt got there on the turn but after all that being said I didn't want to just give up. If I bet half the pot (which is still enough to price out draws yet commit myself to the pot) and he shoves or I push and he calls I'm beat.All in all this may just be 'one of those hands' that I am trying to over analyze. I rarely post hands in here, but this one really bugged for me for some reason.

[HighwayStar 8]

Since the turn is the Jc, the most obv hand for you to raise UTG is AK and you can absolutely represent a st8. The chances of your opponent holding AK is lower than normal because two aces reside in your hand so all in on the turn with a 66% edge and the fear from your opponent that you hold AK should win it for you.

I appreciate the rest of your analysis but you will almost never be folding out a better hand with a shove.How is this for a rangeDead: Board: Td 5h Jc QsDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 69.174% 68.18% 00.99% 1650 24.00 { AdAh }Hand 1: 30.826% 29.83% 00.99% 722 24.00 { JJ-99, 55, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AQo-AJo, KJo+ }I'm ruling out AK, KK and QQ since I think they RR preDunno how good that is tho. No idea how the dude was playing.

[melaskins 0]

Why is checking such a bad option right now?Isn't this board scary to any hand other than AK? If we check we give ourselves an opportunity to make a read on the player and stay in the tournament. He may not have AK but I don't think he is shoving to a check with two pr. Any hand that he insta shoves with lets us know that our blankety blank Aces got us in trouble. And I think we have a great chance of getting a free card and then making our tournament decision on the river.

[TrueAce13 18]

Why is checking such a bad option right now?Isn't this board scary to any hand other than AK? If we check we give ourselves an opportunity to make a read on the player and stay in the tournament. He may not have AK but I don't think he is shoving to a check with two pr. Any hand that he insta shoves with lets us know that our blankety blank Aces got us in trouble. And I think we have a great chance of getting a free card and then making our tournament decision on the river.

B/c we are OOP and we are losing value if we check.When we check, he is firing KQ and putting us to a decision here. We get more value from weaker hands. Yes, it is a tough spot, but as Highway stated, shoving is the right play here

[melaskins 0]

B/c we are OOP and we are losing value if we check.When we check, he is firing KQ and putting us to a decision here. We get more value from weaker hands. Yes, it is a tough spot, but as Highway stated, shoving is the right play here

How many times would any of us shove with AK in this spot. Everyone of us that has played more than 10 tournaments is CRAI with AK. And that is what we represent with a check.If we shove, it is obvious that the turn scared us and we don't have a straight.

[TrueAce13 18]

lol

[HighwayStar 8]

I prob shove AK there. Depends on opponent tho.His cold calling range binks that flop pretty hard- be it a pair + draw hand, 2 pair w/e. A shove here can often look weak

[dna4ever 2]

How many times would any of us shove with AK in this spot. Everyone of us that has played more than 10 tournaments is CRAI with AK. And that is what we represent with a check.If we shove, it is obvious that the turn scared us and we don't have a straight.

This also went into my thinking. Shoving looks weaker which is why I bet $6K (little less than half the pot to price out the draw) and had full intent of calling a shove (which obviously happened or I probably wouldn't have mad this thread). 3rd level of thinking here also knows that shoving looks weaker here and I may still shove with a hand like AK in an obvious overbet attempt to make my hand look like it doesn't want a call in hopes of picking up AQ, KQ.Results:

Guy reshoved and I called the remaining $7K, he flips over QJ, I blank the river, he goes on to finish the tournament in 1st place.

I think it's important to NOT look at the results though. If this same situation came up again I would want to go through this same thinking process.

[cdipierr 0]

As to "if we had AK"...I shove AK there all day long and pray he hit 2 pair on the turn.

[Dhall901 0]

Well, let's look at this. You raised from UTG advertising that you have a strong hand. His implied odds for calling with a small pair are great. You've got a large stack and if he hits he's a monster chipleader going into the final table (considering he busts you). QT5 rainbow..I like this flop for aces and I'm definitley firing at it. Was your action on the flop fairly quick? If so he may be able to put you on the hand you have or KK, hence the smooth call with a set. I mean honestly, what calls you here? It's unlikely that he has AQ, and I don't think a hand like KQ calls preflop this late in the game. Basically, I don't think he can make the call preflop without a solid hand (against you being bigstacked as well). Now, do you fire on the turn? I think that if you don't he's going to take the pot away from you, but if you do you're pot committed. This spot is very read dependant. If you think he hit a set, check/fold. If you think he's trying to set up a play, push.

[Jimako03 0]

Start cutting out your chips like your going to make a big bet, and if he's an absolute stone, i'd be a little more worried. Make a joke, talk to him a little, if he's cool as a cucumber, and his smile and laugh are natural, i'd be even more worried. In these iffy situations, I think it's best to go off body language if you have a good feel for it.

[Fade2241 0]

Well, let's look at this. You raised from UTG advertising that you have a strong hand. His implied odds for calling with a small pair are great. You've got a large stack and if he hits he's a monster chipleader going into the final table (considering he busts you). QT5 rainbow..I like this flop for aces and I'm definitley firing at it. Was your action on the flop fairly quick? If so he may be able to put you on the hand you have or KK, hence the smooth call with a set. I mean honestly, what calls you here? It's unlikely that he has AQ, and I don't think a hand like KQ calls preflop this late in the game. Basically, I don't think he can make the call preflop without a solid hand (against you being bigstacked as well). Now, do you fire on the turn? I think that if you don't he's going to take the pot away from you, but if you do you're pot committed. This spot is very read dependant. If you think he hit a set, check/fold. If you think he's trying to set up a play, push.

Correction: KQ is very likely to be in his range - Don't forget, it's shorthanded. I am pretty sure I get it in here everytime unless I have a solid read otherwise.

[HighwayStar 8]

set mining 24 BBs effective is pretty awful.I set mine 35+ deep, situation dependent

[SuperJon 175]

set mining 24 BBs effective is pretty awful.I set mine 35+ deep, situation dependent

Hmmm...not saying I agree or disagree with this as I never gave it much thought.So....Blinds 150/300You in BB with 7000 dealt 88Villain in MP with 7000Everyone folds to villain who makes it 900 to go. Everyone else folds to you. Am I understanding that your play here is to shove or fold depending on reads?

[HighwayStar 8]

Hmmm...not saying I agree or disagree with this as I never gave it much thought.So....Blinds 150/300You in BB with 7000 dealt 88Villain in MP with 7000Everyone folds to villain who makes it 900 to go. Everyone else folds to you. Am I understanding that your play here is to shove or fold depending on reads?

I'm shoving this spot against about 95% of people. And never calling