The Existence Of Morality

[Balloon guy 158]

It's hypothetical. If you're saying that Leviticus deals with slavery in the way that it does because there was slavery at the time, and there is slavery today, would God tell us today how to treat our slaves or would he tells us not to take slaves?

I think the words of Leviticus would be exactly the same.

What the **** are you talking about? Relevant to what?

Just pointing out how self-righteous your side can be about pointing a finger at the Bible for not doing exactly what you guys are not doing, i.e.stopping slavery

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't think you explain this very well so I'll help out. You guys seem to think that life as we know it has some importance and that's where you are wrong. It misleads you into all sorts of faulty assumptions like human life having value. It doesn't. You think you make conscience decisions, you don't. God implanted a soul in a us and that is what he uses as a guiding force t control us. The decisions you make are predetermined by him. You think that you are making a choice between books, women, what to eat and a myraid of options but the soul knows in advance what decision is going to be made. His willl, through the soul is always guiding your decision. He has predetermined the force that compels life to act and thus predetermined the expected outcome. You might comprehend it better as a grand experiment by our creator.So what does slavery matter to God? He's seen billions of beings perish. He created the ant farm to watch it happen. All lives are meaningless and only here to serve him and his game anyway. He knew there were going to be slaves and he knew there were going to be masters. So what? He designed it that way. He knew there would be.So see, you need to realize that this life is beautiful because that is what he wills through your soul and demands of you because in that way, you will go along with the plan, (as if you had a choice) and continue on with his grand experiment in the hope that the next ant farm will be a better one.

Then I guess I am happy that I got picked to be one of the ants that gets to go to the nicer ant farm.Much better than being the ant who gets squadoosh.Sometimes you just get lucky I guess.

[speedz99 145]

Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.

There's just so, so much that's wildly...you must not have read this over after you wrote it. I'm speechless.

[Randy Reed 0]

But they can get upset about slavery that happened 1600 years ago because the Bible didn't do anything about it?I guess when your world view is hypocritical, you can get away with this kind of thing more easily.Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.That's why in Galatians 3:28 the Bible clearly tells us that:There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And luckily for many, it was Christians who brought up the objections to most of the major countries resulting in the banning of slavery through out the world.And they are active in the world today to end it in the places it still exist.All while you go about your lives and ignore it's reality because you have enough to do to stop the spread of religion.Then you can pretend you'll get around to the slavery thing, once you stop religion.

I was going to ask if souls were male or female or asexual but I guess this answers my suspicions.

[Randy Reed 0]

Then I guess I am happy that I got picked to be one of the ants that gets to go to the nicer ant farm.Much better than being the ant who gets squadoosh.Sometimes you just get lucky I guess.

Well, you didn't actually choose to be happy and there is no such thing as luck. I can understand why you don't really care about people ( using the ant analogy) geting murdered and suffering though. You just have the illusion that things will be better for you.

[crowTrobot 2]

But they can get upset about slavery that happened 1600 years ago because the Bible didn't do anything about it?

hu? this is just about where/how morality originates.

Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.

cultural = subjective obviously.

[vbnautilus 48]

But they can get upset about slavery that happened 1600 years ago because the Bible didn't do anything about it?

We're not upset that the Bible didn't do anything about slavery. We are pointing out that the Bible's condoning of slavery disqualifies it as a relevant moral authority.

Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.

How can you claim that absolute moral rules come from God but then resort to cultural relativism for something like this? I just don't get it.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

[Balloon guy 158]

There's just so, so much that's wildly...you must not have read this over after you wrote it. I'm speechless.

The difference is from your perspective you are approaching the issue with.Of course we see slavery as wrong, so looking back at the times we judge them as JJJ's cartoon pointed out.I am pointing out that this issue is like the issue of taxes that the Pharisees tries to catch Jesus on.They asked him " Who do we pay taxes to?"The reason for this was because at that time, hating the Romans was all the rage, and the tax issue was at the forefront of the reasoning for why the Romans 'gave us nothing" ( Insert Monty Python sketch here"So the Pharisees were thinking this is the perfect trap, if Jesus says pay the taxes to the Romans, then the people will hate Him. And if he says don't pay the taxes, then the Romans will arrest Him. It's a win/win.But Jesus answered back: "Let's look at the coins, it has a picture of Caesar, therefore, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's"The issue of taxes and being a conquered people being good or bad isn't the issue, the issue is how do you live your life towards God.The issue of slavery isn't whether or not it is good or bad, of course we see it as bad, the issue is how do you live your life in regards to God.That's why I can accept the issue of slavery being allowed in the OT and the NT. The issue is secondary to our relationship with God, and as such, should the times you live in allow slavery, your responsibility is to God, not to man.The quote in Galatians clearly shows that Christ saw all people as equal, their status in the world is of secondary importance.I would bet that many slaves during the 1800s in America had a better relationship with their Creator than their owners who used the Bible to justify their owning of slaves.And as the Bible clearly teaches in Ephesians 6:5-9 "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."If you want the Bible to make the world a perfect place, you will be disappointed. If you want the Bible to show you how to live, regardless of your condition, it is pretty good at that.Approaching the Bible as a code for transforming the world into what we see as moral is the wrong approach, and as such you will be disappointing.With that logic you should assume that no one who claims Christ as their Savior should ever have anything wrong happen to them, yet the NT is clear that bad things will happen for many reasons, but those bad things are a distant second to what is important in life, your relationship with your Creator.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, you didn't actually choose to be happy and there is no such thing as luck. I can understand why you don't really care about people ( using the ant analogy) geting murdered and suffering though. You just have the illusion that things will be better for you.

than God picked me to feel lucky and go to Heaven, and as such I am cool with that in a selfish way.

[Balloon guy 158]

We're not upset that the Bible didn't do anything about slavery. We are pointing out that the Bible's condoning of slavery disqualifies it as a relevant moral authority.

First you must make the case that slavery is evil. Being in debt is bad, being poor is bad, being a slave is bad. But are they evil?Look at the communist countries, their people were slaves by many definitions, unable to leave, forced to work, having no control over their lives.There are lots of idiot professors who will gladly argue that communism is the best possible system of government for the world.

How can you claim that absolute moral rules come from God but then resort to cultural relativism for something like this? I just don't get it.

See my answer to speedz.

[speedz99 145]

I would bet that many slaves during the 1800s in America had a better relationship with their Creator than their owners who used the Bible to justify their owning of slaves.And as the Bible clearly teaches in Ephesians 6:5-9 "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Oh, BG...no.

First you must make the case that slavery is evil. Being in debt is bad, being poor is bad, being a slave is bad. But are they evil?

Being in debt is not the same is being kidnapped, sold, and forced to work for no pay under the threat of death. One is just kind of a bummer, the other is, by any definition of the word I can think of, an evil act.

[Balloon guy 158]

I'm really surprised none of you have brought up the issue of Onesimus.That's much better to refute me with.Or it was.

[Balloon guy 158]

Oh, BG...no.

Comeon, you know I'm good for this stuff.

Being in debt is not the same is being kidnapped, sold, and forced to work for no pay under the threat of death. One is just kind of a bummer, the other is, by any definition of the word I can think of, an evil act.

You have never had real debt then.Crushing mind bottling debt.Can't see how you can ever get out from it debt.Hopefully you never do.

[Balloon guy 158]

It all really boils down to what I have said before.For the Christian, this is as bad as it will ever be.For the non-Christian, this is as good as it gets.I can see why you guys want it to be better.Maybe you can vaguely see why this doesn't affect me in the same manner

[JoeyJoJo 18]

kidnapped, sold, and forced to work for no pay under the threat of death.

I think those can be characteristics of slavery, but I wouldn't say that's what slavery is.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

of all the threads BG has made an ass of himself, this is my favorite.

[Balloon guy 158]

of all the threads BG has made an ass of himself, this is my favorite.

[vbnautilus 48]

First you must make the case that slavery is evil.

Seriously? We are not in agreement that enslaving people is wrong? Seriously?

Being in debt is bad, being poor is bad, being a slave is bad. But are they evil?

It's not that "being a slave" is bad, its "enslaving people" that is morally wrong.

[speedz99 145]

You have never had real debt then.Crushing mind bottling debt.Can't see how you can ever get out from it debt.Hopefully you never do.

You're...comparing this to being kidnapped and sold into slavery? I mean, you can't be, but you almost sound serious. Sorry about your debt though, hopefully the business will turn around sooner or later and when you're back on top you'll, you know, take a lesson from my people about saving.For the record, at some point in my life I'll be in seven figures of debt.

I think those can be characteristics of slavery, but I wouldn't say that's what slavery is.

This is even more nitpicky than usual. Obviously I was just using that form of slavery to make my point.

[crowTrobot 2]

First you must make the case that slavery is evil.

define evil

[speedz99 145]

define evil

This is somewhat amusing considering the discussion.Main Entry: 1evil Pronunciation: \ˈē-vəl, British often & US also ˈē-(ˌ)vil\Function: adjective Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lestEtymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evilDate: before 12th century1 a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>2 a archaic : inferior b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>3 a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky— evil adverb, archaic — evil·ly \-(l)ē\ adverb— evil·ness \-nəs\ noun

[BaseJester 1]

This thread truly bottles the mind.

[Spademan 94]

This thread is indicative of every single other thread where a cultist (usually BG is the only one with the fervor to participate) makes idiotic statements in defense of their cults more absurd particulars. It simply stands out in this thread because of the blatantly indefensible position of the Christian cult's text in relation to slavery, and BG's penchant to speak with the authoritative certainty of people who are actually making reasonable, logically sound points. It is delusion in technicolor.

[brvheart 1,752]

It is delusion in technicolor.

I love this line. Love it.Also, you guys are totally not listening to BG, which should be expected, since the topic is something so obviously "wrong". The Bible doesn't take a position on slavery at all, and you guys aren't listening to that, because you are so certain that the Bible LOVES slavery and hates women and coloreds.The Bible, specifically the NT, is simply saying, "The facts of life are this, slavery exists. If you happen to be a slave, remember, your reward is in heaven. Keep your eyes on God. If you are a master... remember. God is watching you, and will judge your actions."The Bible wasn't written to be the basis for a political party. It was written to speak to every person's heart, no matter their station in life. The actual slaves understood this very well. Just look up some of the songs they sang in the cotton fields.