The Existence Of Morality

[Balloon guy 158]

You know.. hate to burst your balloon, but near death experiences, and out of body experiences are easily linked to scientific data that proves the brain functions and stays alive for several minutes after the heart stops beating.The white light experience is lack of oxygen, and the visions are dream sequence. as dreams are merely seconds, but can feel like an entire day has passed.

Should have known you were an expert on near death experiences also.Glad the whole world is so cut and dried for you.Must be nice to have all the answers already. Too bad you are stuck in Canada with themBTW the white light is more often associated with the drugs common in attempts to revive people who's hearts have stopped.

[Balloon guy 158]

most people aren't brainwashed by AA

Ahh.. I guess that's your way of discounting everything I believe, after all, I went to AA.Good logic there crow, your buddies Harris and Dawkins would be proud.

[Balloon guy 158]

it's funny only religious people think that. atheists don't.

Glad you once again are here to speak for an entire group of people with complete authority.Must be hard to know the thoughts and motives of thousands of people.Of course when it comes to actual atheist, you might actually know them all, there are so few of them.Imagine me trying to know all the billions of Christians in the world..

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, something like this is probably true, but you're overstating the case quite a bit. This is still mostly conjecture. ( aside:We did some experiments earlier this year trying to create out of body experiences to image the brain while they are happening. Couldn't quite get the setup to work inside the scanner, but the basic idea is you look through stereoscopic glasses (to make it 3d) which connect to video cameras that are pointed at you from above. So the experience is that you are looking down at your body. You then reinforce the illusion with some synchronized touch tricks and the sensation is pretty strong that you are looking down at a body that you are not inside of any more. )

How do the doctors in the ER not notice the stereoscopic glasses and you 'touching' the patient during these NDEs?

[Balloon guy 158]

BTW, while putting up Christmas lights at a country club today and listening to Dennis Miller on the radio, he had a guy who just wrote a book about life after death and it sounded pretty good. I will research this more after I get through the holidays.

Looked up the info:Dinesh D'Souza is the author, the book is Life After Death the EvidenceHere's an interesting quote about this book:“Never one to be daunted by attempting the impossible, Dinesh D’Souza here shows again the argumentative skills that make him such a formidable opponent." — Christopher Hitchens, author ofGod Is Not Great andThe Portable Atheist

[crowTrobot 2]

Glad you once again are here to speak for an entire group of people with complete authority.Must be hard to know the thoughts and motives of thousands of people.Of course when it comes to actual atheist, you might actually know them all, there are so few of them.Imagine me trying to know all the billions of Christians in the world..

are you insane? (rhetorical question). you are the one who just told atheists how they think. duh. i'm telling you in general you are dead wrong. atheists do not eschew moral behavior or lackvalues just because there is no afterlife.

[crowTrobot 2]

Ahh.. I guess that's your way of discounting everything I believe, after all, I went to AA.

no it's my psycholanalytical theory of why your brain is broke.

[crowTrobot 2]

Looked up the info:Dinesh D'Souza is the author, the book is Life After Death the EvidenceHere's an interesting quote about this book:“Never one to be daunted by attempting the impossible, Dinesh D’Souza here shows again the argumentative skills that make him such a formidable opponent." — Christopher Hitchens, author ofGod Is Not Great andThe Portable Atheist

yes it's interesting that hitchens just called d'souza a fromidable BS artist. note the word impossible.

[Royal_Tour 0]

are you insane? (rhetorical question).

i lawl'ed

[Balloon guy 158]

i lawl'ed

That's because shallow people think alike

[vbnautilus 48]

Sam Harris's TED talk from this year, entitled "Science can answer moral questions." http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_scienc...at_s_right.html

[speedz99 145]

I understand what you are trying to say, but it is based on a flawed viewpoint of what the Old Testament said. Acknowledging the existence of slavery and condoning it are not the same.

Wait, really? I was under the impression that it specifically does condone slavery. Can anyone back me up here or was I mistaken?(I didn't do a full catchup, sorry if someone already covered this.)

[vbnautilus 48]

Wait, really? I was under the impression that it specifically does condone slavery. Can anyone back me up here or was I mistaken?

Absolutely. It even gives specific rules for how long they are to be kept, etc. For instanceLeviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."This is just one example but there are many many passages dealing with rules relating to slavery, and none of them says that people should not be kept as slaves.

[Balloon guy 158]

Absolutely. It even gives specific rules for how long they are to be kept, etc. For instanceLeviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."This is just one example but there are many many passages dealing with rules relating to slavery, and none of them says that people should not be kept as slaves.

During the time that the books of the OT were written, slavery was a reality. the Bible as such addressed it.The reason it doesn't demand all people stop owning slaves is for the same reasons that everyone here completely ignores the fact that more people are living in slavery today than in any times in history and yet not one thing is being done by 99.99% of the population that is real quick to get down on the Bible for telling slave owners to treat slaves as brothers, remembering that they also serve the same God.Or you can just look at half the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bible condones slavery. ( also do not look up the definition of slavery during these times, since often it did not mean what we think of as slavery thanks to watching Roots and Amistad. )

[BaseJester 1]

During the time that the books of the OT were written, slavery was a reality. the Bible as such addressed it.The reason it doesn't demand all people stop owning slaves is for the same reasons that everyone here completely ignores the fact that more people are living in slavery today than in any times in history . . .

If Leviticus were written today, do you think it would condemn slavery?

and yet not one thing is being done by 99.99% of the population that is real quick to get down on the Bible for telling slave owners to treat slaves as brothers, remembering that they also serve the same God.

This is an amazingly low standard to hold for the word of God. All the other kids are doing it? Really?

Or you can just look at half the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bible condones slavery. ( also do not look up the definition of slavery during these times, since often it did not mean what we think of as slavery thanks to watching Roots and Amistad. )

Really? Really? Your position is that slavery in the days of the Old Testament isn't so bad. Really?

[vbnautilus 48]

During the time that the books of the OT were written, slavery was a reality. the Bible as such addressed it.The reason it doesn't demand all people stop owning slaves is for the same reasons that everyone here completely ignores the fact that more people are living in slavery today than in any times in history and yet not one thing is being done by 99.99% of the population that is real quick to get down on the Bible for telling slave owners to treat slaves as brothers, remembering that they also serve the same God.Or you can just look at half the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bible condones slavery. ( also do not look up the definition of slavery during these times, since often it did not mean what we think of as slavery thanks to watching Roots and Amistad. )

The bible did not condemn slavery because... there was slavery?

[Balloon guy 158]

If Leviticus were written today, do you think it would condemn slavery?

Why would Leviticus be written today? None of the rules apply to anyone but the Jews who still reject Christ. And I'm not even sure it would apply to them. That's like asking what would the authors of Windows 3.1 for beginners say if they wrote the instructional book today.

This is an amazingly low standard to hold for the word of God. All the other kids are doing it? Really?

The Bible is a collection of books. Some poetry, some history, some instructional for a wandering tribe, and some just wise sayings written down by the wisest man who ever lived. I can see why the rules about eating pork would be much more relevant to a society without refrigeration than one with, does that mean that the rules regarding pork should apply the same for all cultures for ever? The thing to understand about this subject is that slaves are just people who will stand before the Judgment Seat of God. How they conducted themselves as slaves or as free is what matters, not whether they were slaves or free. The tiny amount of time spent on this planet in these mortal bodies isn't to be compared to eternity, which is why the Bible is not trying to make the earth into heaven, it is trying to save us from a sinking ship. Living right while we do this is just a natural reaction to the Grace shown to us.It is really quite beautiful to see that our lives here are not that big of a deal, but our relationship with God is of major importance.

Really? Really? Your position is that slavery in the days of the Old Testament isn't so bad. Really?

The 27 million people living in slavery today are not relevant because you don't have to think about them? Really?And I think what I said was: "The poor ain't so bad"

[crowTrobot 2]

During the time that the books of the OT were written, slavery was a reality. the Bible as such addressed it.The reason it doesn't demand all people stop owning slaves is for the same reasons that everyone here completely ignores the fact that more people are living in slavery today than in any times in history and yet not one thing is being done by 99.99% of the population that is real quick to get down on the Bible for telling slave owners to treat slaves as brothers, remembering that they also serve the same God.Or you can just look at half the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bible condones slavery. ( also do not look up the definition of slavery during these times, since often it did not mean what we think of as slavery thanks to watching Roots and Amistad. )

there are more slaves now because there are exponentially more people alive. most people are not aware of modern black market slavery or are not in a position to do anything about it. that doesn't mean they condone it. slavery was not considered immoral by god's people in biblical times. now it is. morality is subjective.

[BaseJester 1]

Why would Leviticus be written today? None of the rules apply to anyone but the Jews who still reject Christ. And I'm not even sure it would apply to them. That's like asking what would the authors of Windows 3.1 for beginners say if they wrote the instructional book today.

It's hypothetical. If you're saying that Leviticus deals with slavery in the way that it does because there was slavery at the time, and there is slavery today, would God tell us today how to treat our slaves or would he tells us not to take slaves?

The 27 million people living in slavery today are not relevant because you don't have to think about them? Really?

What the **** are you talking about? Relevant to what?

[vbnautilus 48]

slavery was not considered immoral by god's people in biblical times. now it is. morality is subjective.

Or, they were just wrong. Please watch the video I bumped this thread with about this very issue (Sam Harris's TED talk), curious to hear your response.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

The thing to understand about this subject is that slaves are just people who will stand before the Judgment Seat of God. How they conducted themselves as slaves or as free is what matters, not whether they were slaves or free.

this has got to be a joke.

[crowTrobot 2]

Or, they were just wrong. Please watch the video I bumped this thread with about this very issue (Sam Harris's TED talk), curious to hear your response.

i meant there is no list of god-given moral laws objectively floating around in the air independent of context. will watch when i have time.

[brvheart 1,752]

this has got to be a joke.

It's all about the heart, SuitedAces21.

[Randy Reed 0]

The thing to understand about this subject is that slaves are just people who will stand before the Judgment Seat of God. How they conducted themselves as slaves or as free is what matters, not whether they were slaves or free. The tiny amount of time spent on this planet in these mortal bodies isn't to be compared to eternity, which is why the Bible is not trying to make the earth into heaven, it is trying to save us from a sinking ship. Living right while we do this is just a natural reaction to the Grace shown to us.It is really quite beautiful to see that our lives here are not that big of a deal, but our relationship with God is of major importance.The 27 million people living in slavery today are not relevant because you don't have to think about them? Really?And I think what I said was: "The poor ain't so bad"

I don't think you explain this very well so I'll help out. You guys seem to think that life as we know it has some importance and that's where you are wrong. It misleads you into all sorts of faulty assumptions like human life having value. It doesn't. You think you make conscience decisions, you don't. God implanted a soul in a us and that is what he uses as a guiding force t control us. The decisions you make are predetermined by him. You think that you are making a choice between books, women, what to eat and a myraid of options but the soul knows in advance what decision is going to be made. His willl, through the soul is always guiding your decision. He has predetermined the force that compels life to act and thus predetermined the expected outcome. You might comprehend it better as a grand experiment by our creator.So what does slavery matter to God? He's seen billions of beings perish. He created the ant farm to watch it happen. All lives are meaningless and only here to serve him and his game anyway. He knew there were going to be slaves and he knew there were going to be masters. So what? He designed it that way. He knew there would be.So see, you need to realize that this life is beautiful because that is what he wills through your soul and demands of you because in that way, you will go along with the plan, (as if you had a choice) and continue on with his grand experiment in the hope that the next ant farm will be a better one.

[Balloon guy 158]

there are more slaves now because there are exponentially more people alive. most people are not aware of modern black market slavery or are not in a position to do anything about it. that doesn't mean they condone it.

But they can get upset about slavery that happened 1600 years ago because the Bible didn't do anything about it?I guess when your world view is hypocritical, you can get away with this kind of thing more easily.

slavery was not considered immoral by god's people in biblical times. now it is. morality is subjective.

Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.That's why in Galatians 3:28 the Bible clearly tells us that:There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And luckily for many, it was Christians who brought up the objections to most of the major countries resulting in the banning of slavery through out the world.And they are active in the world today to end it in the places it still exist.All while you go about your lives and ignore it's reality because you have enough to do to stop the spread of religion.Then you can pretend you'll get around to the slavery thing, once you stop religion.