Doyle's New Blog

[silkyjonson 1]

You have to look at the fields the old guys were.Beating back then as opposed to the fields now. Everyone has access to amazing knowledge and can put in the equivalent of years of play then in 3 months now. There are prob 50x more world class players in nl now then in the old days that means you have to be pretty damn good now to survive and there are that many more elite teachers passing on knowledge. And I'm not even going to mention reasons why there was probably more mega fish back then.Basically it's like saying x scientist is more knowledgable then today scientist, I mean did x come up with some awesome theories? Yes. But if you think todays scientist who has access to all the success and failures of x and others plus computer programs for analyzing data etc. Then you don't understand how evolution works.

[chgocubs99 0]

I could beat anybody too if I got to set all the rules and change them whenever I wanted. History's great because everyone takes on mythical status and they don't actually have to keep proving themselves. Stu Ungar never has to encounter (aka get eaten up by) an entire table of people playing as aggressive or more aggressive than he, all of whom have a greater mathematical understanding of every decision and every stage of a tournament. I appreciate that Doyle continues to put his game out there to be measured against others, but I find it laughable that Doyle can't figure out that the depth of talent in the current game is something to be embraced rather than threatened by.

i couldnt disagree more

I actually couldn't agree more to balance this out

Doyle is a legend of the game but his age is really showing in his blog. His attitude (and NUMEROUS other live "TV" pros) towards internet poker and internet players in general is that of subtle jealously and misunderstanding. The internet has produced some of the best POKER players in the world and they are all playing at a level that is higher than anything Doyle has ever known. Players like Tom Dwan, Phil Galfond, Issac Baron, Patrik Antonius, Phil Ivey, JC Tran, etc are better poker players in tournaments and cash games than any of the top players years ago. I'm sorry but Doyle simply doesn't completely comprehend the way that poker has evolved, and will continue evolving, and he probably never will.

I agree with this to a point, I do think that he comprehends the evolution though.

lol, no im not being close minded.i was just thinking outloud in wondering if it was something that was just done.knowing how nitty and lol live cash games are even today, i would be surprised if 4bet bluffing and 3betting was even utilized like it is now...pre and post flop.the reason i think it would be "hilarious" is cause i think both people would be thinking in different eras of poker and it would be funny, literally, to see wtf happened.anyone that has played poker has bluffed, whether it be 3betting or 4betting or bluff/raising a river...but the fact that it's so WIDELY known now (all the different angles, plays, etc etc etc), makes the games infinately tougher.i think doyle, like younger kids, that talk shit are both outta line to an extent. i remember playing back in LA with some old guy and we got to talking at the table. he been playing poker for a living since the 70s and was actually a pretty cool guy. i was suprised at his play, cause i could tell it was somewhat different from most older gentlemen that i had played with before and/or their rep. it was interesting to pick his brain about the games back then and how it is now. needless to say, it is a completely different playing field and the internet has changed everything. the playing field is much more leveled now, and if you put your time and 'studies' in, like many succesful MSNL and HSNL pros do, i dont see how doyle can just be like, "yea, an old pro like johnny moss would beat these online kids".anywaysssssssssssssssssss my mind is soooo open

AgreedDon't have much new stuff to add, but good discussion

[TravisG 0]

I actually couldn't agree more to balance this out

okay.

I agree with this to a point, I do think that he comprehends the evolution though.

allllllright.

Agreed

good point.

Don't have much new stuff to add, but good discussion

me too.

[nutzbuster 7]

A bit off topic...When I was at the Bellagio earlier this week, Doyle hit somebody with his scooter. Without missing a beat, the dealer says "When he's not running people over at the poker table, he's running them over with that scooter"

I remember some one took off with it at the Series last year, drove it halfway to the Starbucks .

[David_Sklansky 1,903]

the worse thing that happened to live poker was limit holdem and rocks. Made it a bore and almost killed the game.

lol

[James D 0]

I don't think Doyle writes most of 'his' blog... doesn't sound like him to me, but I could be wrong.

I've had tons of e-mails, phone calls (mostly anonymous)

And why is he getting anonymous phone calls? Pretty odd.

[Balloon guy 158]

I wonder how some of these internet stud would have done 30 years ago playing with 3 mob guys, 2 cheats and 4 road players all of whom are carrying guns and playing for their entire roll...You think Tom Dwan would be allowed in the same room as them?You think he would leave with their money?Please spare me that the game is tougher now because of the 4 betThe game is softer now because you rarely get cheated, except on UB and AB of course, and you can leave your money behind when you leave the casino instead of carrying it past the wise guys and hustlers who are sitting outside the casino next to your car.

[Balloon guy 158]

And why is he getting anonymous phone calls? Pretty odd.

They keep saying heads up for rolls and hanging up

[HubDub04 0]

The game is softer now because you rarely get cheated

[Balloon guy 158]

I said except for UB and AB...

[HubDub04 0]

I said except for UB and AB...

No sir, my quote wasn't directed at the cheating part, it was directed at you implying that the games were tougher in the old days because you got cheated more often than now.

[silkyjonson 1]

I wonder how some of these internet stud would have done 30 years ago playing with 3 mob guys, 2 cheats and 4 road players all of whom are carrying guns and playing for their entire roll...You think Tom Dwan would be allowed in the same room as them?You think he would leave with their money?Please spare me that the game is tougher now because of the 4 betThe game is softer now because you rarely get cheated, except on UB and AB of course, and you can leave your money behind when you leave the casino instead of carrying it past the wise guys and hustlers who are sitting outside the casino next to your car.

Well I don't know how well dwan would churn his own butter either but we are talking about poker skill here.

[Balloon guy 158]

Knowing that you are safe at home and any money you win is mostly safe and secure is normal today.But sitting down with a gangster who is drinking wouldn't add tension to your play? Wondering if you bluff the guy and he finds out he will kill you, that doesn't affect your play? Having to plan your exit should the likely gun battle go down, that's not a factor in your decision making ability?You guys are tougher than me then.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well I don't know how well dwan would churn his own butter either but we are talking about poker skill here.

I have no doubt that any skill sets a woman is capable of, Dwan would be a natural at.

[Denny Crane 0]

I could beat anybody too if I got to set all the rules and change them whenever I wanted. History's great because everyone takes on mythical status and they don't actually have to keep proving themselves. Stu Ungar never has to encounter (aka get eaten up by) an entire table of people playing as aggressive or more aggressive than he, all of whom have a greater mathematical understanding of every decision and every stage of a tournament. I appreciate that Doyle continues to put his game out there to be measured against others, but I find it laughable that Doyle can't figure out that the depth of talent in the current game is something to be embraced rather than threatened by.

Says who? You?

[Balloon guy 158]

Says who? You?

Him, Jerry Yang and Jamie Gold..That's who!

[silkyjonson 1]

I have no doubt that any skill sets a woman is capable of, Dwan would be a natural at.

If you think he's aggressive at the tables you should see him With a dirt devil

[slink 1]

If you think he's aggressive at the tables you should see him With a dirt devil

....or a swiffer.....

[Acekob 0]

I wonder how some of these internet stud would have done 30 years ago playing with 3 mob guys, 2 cheats and 4 road players all of whom are carrying guns and playing for their entire roll...

Haha, I can imagine Durr taking a few bullets in the chest after flipping over a 4bet bluff while grinning from eye to eye.

[Balloon guy 158]

Haha, I can imagine Durr taking a few bullets in the chest after flipping over a 4bet bluff while grinning from eye to eye.

Dwan: I reraise ( with air)Mob guy: (places 38 on table ) Raise me one more time tonight.Dwan: (mucks hand) I need to go to the bathroomMob guy:The ladies room is on the leftDwan: But I'm a boyMob guy: I said, the ladies room is on the rightDwan: Okay(Dwan comes back in 15 minutes)Dwan: What happened to all my money?Mob guy: You lost it(Everyone else looks away)Dwan: Well, at least I know what range of hands you would raise from middle position in a multiway pot are.Mob guy: Well, at least I've slept with a woman.Dwan runs out crying, where he is beaten to death by a teenage girl for peeing on the seat.

[Denny Crane 0]

Haha, I can imagine Durr taking a few bullets in the chest after flipping over a 4bet bluff while grinning from eye to eye.

I don't have a problem with Durrr too much. He seems like an ok kid, although you can tell that the players, especially the older ones, get tired of listening to him analyze and break down every hand after he plays it. That's gotta get annoying after a bit.

[I_fold08 1]

ok this might come off as a wtf post, but if it does that means things are in tact then lol- there are numerous more good-great nl players today than yesteryear-yesteryear pros were as good or better-if online pros play live they dont have an edge against the yesteryear pros-vice versa-pro meaning people who stood the test of timeplaying millions of hands online is not the same as playing half or 1/3 of that live.to sum things up (why am i even posting this post?) doyle and the old guard > new online pros

[Acekob 0]

Dwan: I reraise ( with air)Mob guy: (places 38 on table ) Raise me one more time tonight.Dwan: (mucks hand) I need to go to the bathroomMob guy:The ladies room is on the leftDwan: But I'm a boyMob guy: I said, the ladies room is on the rightDwan: Okay(Dwan comes back in 15 minutes)Dwan: What happened to all my money?Mob guy: You lost it(Everyone else looks away)Dwan: Well, at least I know what range of hands you would raise from middle position in a multiway pot are.Mob guy: Well, at least I've slept with a woman.Dwan runs out crying, where he is beaten to death by a teenage girl for peeing on the seat.

I can name someone else who'll soon take some bullets if he doesnt ship 1/3 of my bankroll back

[oldmangrimis 0]

lol, no im not being close minded.i was just thinking outloud in wondering if it was something that was just done.knowing how nitty and lol live cash games are even today, i would be surprised if 4bet bluffing and 3betting was even utilized like it is now...pre and post flop.the reason i think it would be "hilarious" is cause i think both people would be thinking in different eras of poker and it would be funny, literally, to see wtf happened.anyone that has played poker has bluffed, whether it be 3betting or 4betting or bluff/raising a river...but the fact that it's so WIDELY known now (all the different angles, plays, etc etc etc), makes the games infinately tougher.i think doyle, like younger kids, that talk shit are both outta line to an extent. i remember playing back in LA with some old guy and we got to talking at the table. he been playing poker for a living since the 70s and was actually a pretty cool guy. i was suprised at his play, cause i could tell it was somewhat different from most older gentlemen that i had played with before and/or their rep. it was interesting to pick his brain about the games back then and how it is now. needless to say, it is a completely different playing field and the internet has changed everything. the playing field is much more leveled now, and if you put your time and 'studies' in, like many succesful MSNL and HSNL pros do, i dont see how doyle can just be like, "yea, an old pro like johnny moss would beat these online kids".anywaysssssssssssssssssss my mind is soooo open

You have a open mind. You state that you not one of the old players and you ask if the idea where know back then. You get the answer and still don't belive it. Ya the new internet player have created "all the different angles" and "makes the games infinately tougher". But if you still like a game us old time playe will let you teach us a new trick or two.

[dlingdling 0]

Says who? You?

Pretty sure most of the top 100 online players have a more thorough mathematical understanding of poker and tournament structures than Stu Ungar did.