Think This Sums Up The Current State Of Online Poker

[HubDub04 0]

This post was taken from the Red Pro Strat Forum over on Barry Greensteins forums and was written by Kevin "Bel0wAb0ve" Saul. Welcome to "Online Poker 2008". This hand pretty much represents everything I hate about poker in these times. Back when I really started doing well in online poker in late '03/ early '04, it would be really standard to raise/fold ATs OTB to a blind re-raising you. When people re-raised an opener they always had a hand. It was basically with the guidance of "BigSlick789" AKA Ozzy87 that I picked up how tight people played and started re-raising the **** out of em. As you can imagine this was my most successful period playing online. But of course with the evolution of poker and training sites in the last few years most of the regulars in the higher buy-in tournaments have caught onto this, making the game a raise and re-raise war. You are no longer playing poker really but making a math problem out of every hand, constantly having to assign players' ranges to which they are opening or 3-betting based on their position. Instead of a game where the greater skill will prevail by a considerable margin in the long run, we now play an extremely volatile, high variance game of gambling. One that causes people to shove 20 BB's because it's simply unexploitable, or cause us to raise call A9o or QK every time we open these kinds of hands from late position. It's not so much about being the better player anymore but more so who will "run best" over a short period of time.-KevinMakes a lot of sense imo.http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/showthread...2227&page=2

[Dirtydutch 8]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. That guy must be 90 years old. I love how when people complain that poker is played on a higher level than it used to be they can't just admit that, they have to find some excuse for why they can't beat the game anymore.

[babylondonks 5]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. That guy must be 90 years old. I love how when people complain that poker is played on a higher level than it used to be they can't just admit that, they have to find some excuse for why they can't beat the game anymore.

I agree, but hasn't he been crushing tournaments recently?

[CrookedLink 0]

he's got one of the most boring video blogs on pokerroadi dont even know why he's part of the site.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I agree, but hasn't he been crushing tournaments recently?

No clue who he even is.

[CrookedLink 0]

I agree, but hasn't he been crushing tournaments recently?

im not sure how recently your talking about, but he stunk it up at the wsop.the only thing i've seen him do was win that wpt where he was HU with matusowedit: and he come off as a big douche bag in that particular final table.

[babylondonks 5]

No clue who he even is.

http://www.pocketfives.com/profiles/BeL0WaB0Ve

[NoSup4U 0]

A year ago belowabove was the hottest thing online irc. He's not old, that much I know :)Mark

[dlingdling 0]

It's not so much about being the better player anymore but more so who will "run best" over a short period of time.

Millionaire poker prodigy complains that he can't scare the entire table into folding every time. I like what I've seen of Kevin, but c'mon. He and most other top players have had the benefit of luck letting their skill shine. There are many players, even players who put in huge volume, who don't run good. They're on the other side of the variance curve. I feel for them. They made the same set of decisions Kevin has made over their tournament life, but he has run best over a short period of time. When they 4bet with 52o and get called, they don't suck out. When they call a 4bet with ATo, they run into kings - or villain's J4o wins. I feel little sympathy for someone who used to have the convenience of betting people off hands and now has to adapt to being played back at more.

[psujohn 0]

There's some merit to this. Samoleous in his recent cash plays interview complained about how rampant 3-betting/4-betting was reducing the skill factor in poker. I think that's true to a certain extent. I don't think that anyone would argue that shortstack play is less skillful than deep stacked and pre-flop re-raising has the effect of making effective stacks shorter.

[HighwayStar 8]

Kevin is one of the illest tournament players at the moment and one who I respect greatly. He's also a cool and fairly entertaining guy. He's been crushing it recently from what I've seen..Interesting post, definitely rings true with what I see tournament play to be like these days - purely a mathematical game played preflop. Fortunately a lot of people still really suck at preflop.

[JaNnN 0]

Two words; "SMALL BALL!!"

[SGFULTON83 0]

No clue who he even is.

Here is Kevin "Q-Tip" Saul

[jmbreslin 0]

He (and others like him) should count his lucky stars that he had his period of huge success when online poker was dominated by fish and he was able to take full advantage of their stupidity. Some of us who started playing fairly recently were never lucky enough to benefit from the early days of the poker boom.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

I see what he is saying about increasing the variance. When the rate of 3 and 4-bets are increasing, which in a 100BB stack size situation, represents 10%-25% of your stack, and so often it is 50/50 on it being air or a made hand, turns poker into so much more a preflop game again. So what is next in online poker? 300-400BB buyin cash games?where a 3bet to 10 blinds makes postflop play still possible?

[I_fold08 1]

A year ago belowabove was the hottest thing online irc. He's not old, that much I know :)Mark

actually i think he is like 35, so for an online pro that is like doyle to the live pros

[HubDub04 0]

I really think that you guys are trying to take what Kevin said in a negative way. He wasn't being negative at all, just calling it like he sees it. Yes i'm sure he knows how fortunate he is to have had tons of success in the poker world but that doesn't mean he can't express his beliefs.The reason I posted this is because I have been in the poker world for a little while now, and have seen the changes in playing styles from way back when (03-04 ish) to now where it seems like everyone is playing solid aggressive poker whereas before there were only a few players who employed a playing style akin to Kevin's. I think for the most part he is correct, people aren't worried about playing actual poker and playing hands post flop as opposed to just shoving pre and flipping coins like we all know tournament poker comes down to in a lot of situations. This is also the reason why I (and a few other friends I know) have switched almost primarily to the cash game arena and have been staying away from grinding mtts all day. Don't get me wrong, the guys who are on top of the MTT poker world are mostly really really good players, much better than I am at tournaments, but I know enough about them and have played in a enough to see where Kevin is coming from.

[SGFULTON83 0]

actually i think he is like 35, so for an online pro that is like doyle to the live pros

He is 28

[mtdesmoines 3]

There's some merit to this. Samoleous in his recent cash plays interview complained about how rampant 3-betting/4-betting was reducing the skill factor in poker. I think that's true to a certain extent. I don't think that anyone would argue that shortstack play is less skillful than deep stacked and pre-flop re-raising has the effect of making effective stacks shorter.

^^^^^^^ this.

I see what he is saying about increasing the variance. When the rate of 3 and 4-bets are increasing, which in a 100BB stack size situation, represents 10%-25% of your stack, and so often it is 50/50 on it being air or a made hand, turns poker into so much more a preflop game again. So what is next in online poker? 300-400BB buyin cash games?where a 3bet to 10 blinds makes postflop play still possible?

I won't sit at a table unless 3/4th the players are loaded to 200 BBs.

I really think that you guys are trying to take what Kevin said in a negative way. He wasn't being negative at all, just calling it like he sees it. Yes i'm sure he knows how fortunate he is to have had tons of success in the poker world but that doesn't mean he can't express his beliefs.The reason I posted this is because I have been in the poker world for a little while now, and have seen the changes in playing styles from way back when (03-04 ish) to now where it seems like everyone is playing solid aggressive poker whereas before there were only a few players who employed a playing style akin to Kevin's. I think for the most part he is correct, people aren't worried about playing actual poker and playing hands post flop as opposed to just shoving pre and flipping coins like we all know tournament poker comes down to in a lot of situations. This is also the reason why I (and a few other friends I know) have switched almost primarily to the cash game arena and have been staying away from grinding mtts all day. Don't get me wrong, the guys who are on top of the MTT poker world are mostly really really good players, much better than I am at tournaments, but I know enough about them and have played in a enough to see where Kevin is coming from.

Good thread.

[JoeyFinngars 0]

I find it funny that he is complaining about the way poker has evolved over the past 4 years. As poker players are we not supposed to adapt and change our play based on the table dynamics. He altered his play in 2003-2004 when it became clear others were playing too tight, so he started to become more aggressive. Now that others have made this change he is upset!?!If the overall style is raise/re-raise then play less hands, pick the spots to exploit this and play smaller pots. People have an image of Kevin as a hyper-aggressive player and if he was to completely flip his play (i.e. TAG instead of LAG) would he not be able to fool people and trap them?Essentially if he is as good as his stats would make him seem then he should be able to think through the current state and figure out a way to exploit it much like others are exploit his style of play by re-raising and taking some of the skill away.

[Balloon guy 158]

Two words; "SMALL BALL!!" POKER VT

Nice white snake reference in your sig

[cardcore 0]

I won't sit at a table unless 3/4th the players are loaded to 200 BBs.

I personally love playing shortstackers

[chgocubs99 0]

I personally love playing shortstackers

[NoSup4U 0]

I personally love playing mediumstackers

Mark

[Snamuh 0]

Personally I love playing 30 to 85 BB stackers.Brett