Indentured Servitude: The New Teen Tax

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I don't think making community service a requirement to graduate from High School is at all a bad thing. I went to a public high school and we had to do 10 hours to graduate from our junior year, I think. It was a fine experience, and I guess I'm very slightly the better as a result of it. I mean, we already require kids to be in a building for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week. What's the difference whether we add 20 hours over 4 years?I'm also for expanding programs that help to pay for college in exchange for community service.I'm clearly against any program that "drafts" all people for a few months and forces them to become a community service army, but that's never going to happen, so why worry about impossible hypotheticals.

[hblask 1]

I don't think making community service a requirement to graduate from High School is at all a bad thing. I went to a public high school and we had to do 10 hours to graduate from our junior year, I think. It was a fine experience, and I guess I'm very slightly the better as a result of it. I mean, we already require kids to be in a building for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week. What's the difference whether we add 20 hours over 4 years?

First, I'm glad that a privileged white kid didn't mind doing community service. You have to realize you are a minority, though.Second, the difference is that we send our kids to school for education. 99% of the population agrees this is a good idea. A minority thinks their children should be slaves to the whims of bureaucrats.

so why worry about impossible hypotheticals.

Because this 'hypothetical' is being seriously proposed by the president(-elect) and his chief of staff.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

First, I'm glad that a privileged white kid didn't mind doing community service. You have to realize you are a minority, though.Second, the difference is that we send our kids to school for education. 99% of the population agrees this is a good idea. A minority thinks their children should be slaves to the whims of bureaucrats..

There's more to education that just what 2+2 is and having High School kids perform some community service can be part of a broader educational experience.

[hblask 1]

There's more to education that just what 2+2 is and having High School kids perform some community service can be part of a broader educational experience.

It is not the government's job to decide which morals I teach my children, and I object to the notion that the government has a better idea of what is good for my kids than I do. It's insulting. When politicians who want to pass these insane laws start demonstrating even 1/10 of the morality and kindness that my family does on a daily basis, then we can start a discussion. Until then, they should GTFO.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

It is not the government's job to decide which morals I teach my children, and I object to the notion that the government has a better idea of what is good for my kids than I do. It's insulting. When politicians who want to pass these insane laws start demonstrating even 1/10 of the morality and kindness that my family does on a daily basis, then we can start a discussion. Until then, they should GTFO.

WTF, it has nothing to do with morals. It's about giving children an experience that most of them may not have otherwise. That's the job of schools and educators.And yes there are some things that as a society we shouldn't leave up to parents to teach their children, not that I'm saying community service is one of those things.

[hblask 1]

WTF, it has nothing to do with morals. It's about giving children an experience that most of them may not have otherwise. That's the job of schools and educators.

That has nothing to do with the intent of this program. It's "community service", not "job placement". If you want to give people job experience, you don't take away their free time that they could be using to work. I hope this isn't the start of pretending that this program is something it's not.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

That has nothing to do with the intent of this program. It's "community service", not "job placement". If you want to give people job experience, you don't take away their free time that they could be using to work. I hope this isn't the start of pretending that this program is something it's not.

Nowhere did I say anything about job placement. It's an experience that might help to round out a kid a little bit and expose them to something they otherwise wouldn't and asking kids to do a few hours of community service isn't an onerous thing to ask.

[hblask 1]

Nowhere did I say anything about job placement. It's an experience that might help to round out a kid a little bit and expose them to something they otherwise wouldn't and asking kids to do a few hours of community service isn't an onerous thing to ask.

Maybe in your life it wouldn't be onerous, but the US is a big country, and not everyone has a cushy life with lots of free hours to run around pretending to do good things so that politicians can pretend they are doing something good.Furthermore, keep the government away from my kids. Seriously.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Nowhere did I say anything about job placement. It's an experience that might help to round out a kid a little bit and expose them to something they otherwise wouldn't and asking kids to do a few hours of community service isn't an onerous thing to ask.

I agree with hblask here. I agree that community service should be a part of every teenagers life, but to have the government require it seems to infer that I am not doing my job as a parent. Like Henry said, to require it makes it seem like I'm not doing enough as a parent.

[El Guapo 8]

Nowhere did I say anything about job placement. It's an experience that might help to round out a kid a little bit and expose them to something they otherwise wouldn't and asking kids to do a few hours of community service isn't an onerous thing to ask.

Experience - yes it is, could be good or badMight - this is a big if, forcing people to things, anything, even fun things usually makes them hate it.Asking - there is no asking in Obama/Rhams plan, it's forcing.

[vbnautilus 48]

That has nothing to do with the intent of this program. It's "community service", not "job placement". If you want to give people job experience, you don't take away their free time that they could be using to work. I hope this isn't the start of pretending that this program is something it's not.

How is this any different than the school deciding that geometry is manditory or learning a foreign language is?

[hblask 1]

How is this any different than the school deciding that geometry is manditory or learning a foreign language is?

OMG, how many times do I have to explain this. It's because 99%+ of the population wants their kids to be taught stuff in school. Not very many people want their children indoctrinated and treated the same way petty criminals are treated -- with mandatory service. What is that so complicated? Forced labor has nothing to do with education, it has nothing to do with learning the value of helping community, it fosters disrespect for the government, and it demonstrates, once again, that if you are rich enough you can get off easy while the poor get the crap work. No thanks, I'd rather not have the government forcing those lessons down my child's throat.I'd rather have a real choice with school, too, but I can live with govt teachers teaching geometry because I'd want *someone* to teach them that, and local school boards are semi-responsive to parental concerns. I don't want *anyone* teaching my kid about forced labor (well, except maybe me).

[vbnautilus 48]

OMG, how many times do I have to explain this. It's because 99%+ of the population wants their kids to be taught stuff in school. Not very many people want their children indoctrinated and treated the same way petty criminals are treated -- with mandatory service. What is that so complicated? Forced labor has nothing to do with education, it has nothing to do with learning the value of helping community, it fosters disrespect for the government, and it demonstrates, once again, that if you are rich enough you can get off easy while the poor get the crap work. No thanks, I'd rather not have the government forcing those lessons down my child's throat.

How do you know what percentage of the population wants their kids to do some community work as part of their schooling compared with how many want a foreign language taught? If that's the basis of your argument, I'd like to see some data.

[hblask 1]

How do you know what percentage of the population wants their kids to do some community work as part of their schooling compared with how many want a foreign language taught? If that's the basis of your argument, I'd like to see some data.

If you know a single parent who thinks their kids should NOT be educated, I'd be very surprised. The uproar over this "forced volunteering" has been immense (to the point where they quietly changed the website and pretended they never proposed it). Let's not play pretend games that they are equivalent. You're way smarter than that, leave that kind of non-logic to Wiz Adult and Nerveta.

[CaneBrain 95]

OMG, how many times do I have to explain this. It's because 99%+ of the population wants their kids to be taught stuff in school. Not very many people want their children indoctrinated and treated the same way petty criminals are treated -- with mandatory service. What is that so complicated? Forced labor has nothing to do with education, it has nothing to do with learning the value of helping community, it fosters disrespect for the government, and it demonstrates, once again, that if you are rich enough you can get off easy while the poor get the crap work. No thanks, I'd rather not have the government forcing those lessons down my child's throat.I'd rather have a real choice with school, too, but I can live with govt teachers teaching geometry because I'd want *someone* to teach them that, and local school boards are semi-responsive to parental concerns. I don't want *anyone* teaching my kid about forced labor (well, except maybe me).

indoctrinated? treated like petty criminals? henry, you sound paranoid. I dont like this plan because I dont think it is necessary. however, requiring that high schoolers work five hours on 4 saturdays (per year!) in a soup kitchen or at a nursing home is not indoctrination or criminal behavior. I think this is a gross overreaction. I also dont think it implies that you are a bad parent. Why would you think that? It implies that under Obama's educational program the thought is that a small dose of helping the less fortunate might make for a more well rounded educational experience. Is that true? eh, maybe. But this is not a sky is falling moment, imo, either.I will agree with Guapo that high school kids will resent this. That is how high school kids are.

[gobears 0]

If this program was ever implemented; it would be shut down as soon as you had a case where some junkie stabbed a student who was working the soup kitchen; or maybe some students decide to play wheelchair/chariot races with the senior citizens at the retirement home. Because the kids were "forced" to be there, you'll end up with lawsuits and plenty of folks saying "it didn't have to be that way if only the government hadn't forced my poor Jimmy..."

[strategy 4]

We had a war to bail us out of the depression.

broken window fallacy, thx.

[Potomophobia 17]

If it were up to me, all teens would have to take 2 years off between High School and College. They would have to perform some type of military or public service. The US is raising a generation of spoiled, self centered, ignorant and selfish people who think life owes them a living. As long as we allow this to continue, we are destined to fail in the long run.The US is fat and lazy. A lot of other countries aren't. It is a global world now more than it has ever been. If we don't wake up and get lean and mean we will be toast.

[Potomophobia 17]

New Idea.Let's have a thing called a draft. Pull birthdays out of a barrel on national TV and ship all who win the lottery off to the wars we are currently fighting.No bitching, moaning or whining. Your country is calling. Go to war or go to Canada.Why haven't we thought of this before?

[85suited 0]

WTF, it has nothing to do with morals. It's about giving children an experience that most of them may not have otherwise. That's the job of schools and educators.And yes there are some things that as a society we shouldn't leave up to parents to teach their children, not that I'm saying community service is one of those things.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution officially abolished and continues to prohibit slavery, and with limited exceptions, such as those convicted of a crime, prohibits involuntary servitude. It was adopted on December 6, 1865.End of Story...

[hblask 1]

indoctrinated? treated like petty criminals? henry, you sound paranoid. I dont like this plan because I dont think it is necessary. however, requiring that high schoolers work five hours on 4 saturdays (per year!) in a soup kitchen or at a nursing home is not indoctrination or criminal behavior. I think this is a gross overreaction. I also dont think it implies that you are a bad parent. Why would you think that? It implies that under Obama's educational program the thought is that a small dose of helping the less fortunate might make for a more well rounded educational experience. Is that true? eh, maybe. But this is not a sky is falling moment, imo, either.I will agree with Guapo that high school kids will resent this. That is how high school kids are.

Indoctinated: Yes, indoctrinated in the notion that your life does not belong to you, it belongs to the government. This is the most dangerous idea in history, AINEC. That is a direction that we do not even want to take one tiny, tiny baby step because it's so dangerous.Petty criminals: As for treating them like petty criminals, what happens to someone who the judge knows is guilty, but doesn't think is bad/dangerous enough to warrant jail time? Community service. So, if this program were to go through, would that program for petty criminals be scrapped and just throw them in jail instead? Or would we just equate "in high school" to "committed petty crime"?Helping the less fortunate: Would the less fortunate be exempted from this program? I grew up extremely poor, and every spare minute was spent helping on the farm so that we would have food to eat? Would I be exempt or not? Who will decide who has the spare time to do this and who doesn't? Who will decide which programs qualify as community service? Just in this thread we've had a couple people say they don't mind because they got off easy doing some cushy job, or found other ways around it. What kind of life lesson is that? That the rich get off easy, the poor get out because of need, so only the middle and lower-middle class has to contribute? That's what we want schools teaching our kids?Helping people by force does not teach anything except resentment for those who you are forced to help. Helping because you want to help enriches your life and lifts your spirits. If people are forced to do the former, they will do less of the latter. This program is a terrible idea.

[hblask 1]

If it were up to me, all teens would have to take 2 years off between High School and College. They would have to perform some type of military or public service.

We don't appreciate trolls here. Take it to AOL.

[vbnautilus 48]

If you know a single parent who thinks their kids should NOT be educated, I'd be very surprised. The uproar over this "forced volunteering" has been immense (to the point where they quietly changed the website and pretended they never proposed it). Let's not play pretend games that they are equivalent. You're way smarter than that, leave that kind of non-logic to Wiz Adult and Nerveta.

You really are a professional word-twister. Where did the idea of not being educated enter in? The question is about what the content of the educational curriculum should be, and there are often disagreements about what content and activities should be part of education. You can't pretend everyone agrees 100% about all the other things that have ended up as part of public schooling. What about physical education being mandated, do you have a problem with that? Forcing kids to run? How about forcing them to pledge their allegiance? What about sex education? I have no problem with the objection to this program, but I think its wrong to treat it like its such a qualitative difference from what goes on already by labeling it "forced".If schools never did required anything that the kids resented, nothing would be required in school.

[El Guapo 8]

Indoctinated: Yes, indoctrinated in the notion that your life does not belong to you, it belongs to the government. This is the most dangerous idea in history, AINEC. That is a direction that we do not even want to take one tiny, tiny baby step because it's so dangerous.Petty criminals: As for treating them like petty criminals, what happens to someone who the judge knows is guilty, but doesn't think is bad/dangerous enough to warrant jail time? Community service. So, if this program were to go through, would that program for petty criminals be scrapped and just throw them in jail instead? Or would we just equate "in high school" to "committed petty crime"?Helping the less fortunate: Would the less fortunate be exempted from this program? I grew up extremely poor, and every spare minute was spent helping on the farm so that we would have food to eat? Would I be exempt or not? Who will decide who has the spare time to do this and who doesn't? Who will decide which programs qualify as community service? Just in this thread we've had a couple people say they don't mind because they got off easy doing some cushy job, or found other ways around it. What kind of life lesson is that? That the rich get off easy, the poor get out because of need, so only the middle and lower-middle class has to contribute? That's what we want schools teaching our kids?Helping people by force does not teach anything except resentment for those who you are forced to help. Helping because you want to help enriches your life and lifts your spirits. If people are forced to do the former, they will do less of the latter. This program is a terrible idea.

Why didn't you have my back when I was railing on about the citizen military being proposed? JERK!

You really are a professional word-twister. Where did the idea of not being educated enter in? The question is about what the content of the educational curriculum should be, and there are often disagreements about what content and activities should be part of education. You can't pretend everyone agrees 100% about all the other things that have ended up as part of public schooling. What about physical education being mandated, do you have a problem with that? Forcing kids to run? How about forcing them to pledge their allegiance? What about sex education? I have no problem with the objection to this program, but I think its wrong to treat it like its such a qualitative difference from what goes on already by labeling it "forced".If schools never did required anything that the kids resented, nothing would be required in school.

I think what Henry is getting at, is that having the federal government have a blanket requirement of XXX community service, vs. a specific school is the issue. At the school level you have a large community involvement, PTA, School Board that are made up of parent and local members of the community. They would make the decision on these things, based on what the majority of the community wanted.Right now all we mandate for school is the basics. Couple years of English, couple years of Math (no geometry), basic science, government, econ, and history. That's it. The rest of the classes are elective to fill a certain number of units, but the children are allowed to choose what classes they want.You are comparing apples to oranges here.Pledge of allegiance is not required or forced, and the sex education thing is a huge debate, which I am pretty sure Henry is against. PE has not only stopped being mandatory, it has been dropped from most schools all together. Which is a crying shame with our society getting fatter and fatter.

[Sheiky 0]

I have to do 50 hours of this by February I think.So far i've booked 11 and a half by forging signatures, I'm not sure how many I can do before someone clocks on.