Official Obama/mccain Debate Thread

[copernicus 0]

isn't that what we're doing right now?

no. financial markets != the economy. And a good part of the financial market problem is Obamas lead in the polls.

[GWCGWC 83]

It's all about the message...Which message did you like?

If people aren't aware of each candidates stances on most of the major issues by now, they never will. There wasn't any new message from either side. I like Obama obviously which I would expect makes you cringe a bit. Personally, I was rooting for Hillary which I KNOW makes you cringe. Those two have such similar policy it didn't matter to me much but the most important thing was which one is electable. Despite the polling numbers, I'm not sure Obama is. God I hope I'm wrong. Once thing I liked in this debate was the polarizing aspect of the Roe V Wade issue and how important Supreme Court appointments will be to the next administration. This isn't something I expected to see discussed. When McCain looked into the camera and congratulated Joe the plumber for being rich showed me how poorly he does when he moves away from the script. Maybe I misread it and people respond to that type of humor. I'm kind of slow, but he looked silly to me.

[irishguy 14]

Interesting stuff:OBAMA: "Every dollar that I've proposed, I've proposed an additional cut, so that it matches."THE FACTS: The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates that his programs would add $281 billion to the deficit at the end of his first term. The analysis includes Obama's proposals for saving money.___McCAIN: "We have to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't like us very much."THE FACTS: This is a reference to U.S. spending on oil imports. McCain has repeatedly made this claim. But the figure is highly inflated and misleading. According to government agencies that track energy imports, the United States spent $246 billion in 2007 for all imported crude oil, a majority of it coming from friendly nations including neighboring Canada and Mexico. An additional $82 billion was spent on imported refined petroleum products such as gasoline, diesel and fuel oil. A majority of the refined products come from refineries in such friendly countries as the Netherlands, Canada, the United Kingdom, Trinidad-Tobago and the Virgin Islands.___OBAMA: "One hundred percent, John, of your ads — 100 percent of them — have been negative."THE FACTS: The statement is true when it comes to McCain's current commercial spots. But by saying McCain's ads "have been" 100 percent negative, Obama ventures into misleading territory. McCain is currently running all negative ads, according to a study by the University of Wisconsin-Madison. But he has run a number of positive ads during the campaign.___McCAIN: "Sen. Obama is spending unprecedented amounts of money in negative attack ads on me."THE FACTS: Obama is spending unprecedented amounts of money on ads, period — negative or otherwise. Obama is outspending McCain and the Republican Party by more than 2-to-1 in presidential ads. At one point in August, 90 percent of the ads Obama was airing were against McCain. A study conducted at the University of Wisconsin-Madison found that about 34 percent of Obama's ads are now negative.___OBAMA: "I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of working Americans, 95 percent."THE FACTS: Obama constantly says this. But the independent Tax Policy Center says his plan cuts taxes for 81.3 percent of all households in 2009.___McCAIN: Said of Obama's running mate Sen. Joe Biden: "He had this cockamamie idea of dividing Iraq into three countries." THE FACTS: Biden actually proposed dividing Iraq into three semiautonomous regions, not separate countries. He was a prime sponsor of a nonbinding Senate resolution that called for Iraq to have federal regions under the control of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis in a power-sharing agreement similar to the one that ended the 1990s war in Bosnia. ___ OBAMA: Said he would be "completely supportive" of late-term abortion restrictions "as long as there's an exception for the mother's health and life." THE FACTS: Obama leaves himself a lot of latitude in this answer. A woman's "health" has been so broadly interpreted that it can include conditions, including psychological conditions, that are difficult to diagnose or prove. Anti-abortion advocates say that makes the ban meaningless, because it leaves too much subjective judgment in the equation. ___ MCCAIN: "Sen. Obama, as a member of the Illinois state Senate, voted in the Judiciary Committee against a law that would provide immediate medical attention to a child born in a failed abortion. He voted against that." OBAMA: "If it sounds incredible that I would vote to withhold lifesaving treatment from an infant, that's because it's not true." THE FACTS: As a state senator, Obama opposed three legislative efforts, in 2001, 2002 and 2003, to give legal protections to any aborted fetus that showed signs of life. The 2003 measure was virtually identical to a bill President Bush signed into law in 2002 — a bill that passed before Obama was in the U.S. Senate, but one that Obama said he would have supported. The state of Illinois already had a law to protect aborted fetuses born alive and considered able to survive. Among those opposed to the state effort was the Illinois State Medical Society, which argued that the bill would interfere with the doctor-patient relationship and expand civil liability for doctors. Critics said the proposed legislation would have undermined the landmark Supreme Court case on abortion, Roe v. Wade, in ways the federal law would not. ___ McCAIN: "Senator Obama talks about voting for budgets. He voted twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals making $42,000 a year." THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding resolution and did not increase taxes. The resolution assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. ___ OBAMA: "We can cut the average family's premium by $2,500 a year." THE FACTS: If that sounds like a straight-ahead promise to lower health insurance premiums, it isn't. Obama hopes that by spending $50 billion over five years on electronic medical records and by improving access to proven disease management programs, among other steps, consumers will end up saving money. He uses an optimistic analysis to suggested cost reductions in national health care spending could amount to the equivalent of $2,500 for a family of four. Many economists are skeptical those savings can be achieved, but even if they are, it's not a certainty that every dollar would be passed on to consumers in the form of lower premiums. ___ MCCAIN: Warned a small business owner that he would be fined under Obama's health care plan if he did not provide health insurance for workers. THE FACTS: Obama's health care plan does not impose mandates or fines on small business. He would provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on health premiums paid on behalf of their employees. Large as well as medium-sized businesses that do not offer meaningful coverage or contribute to the cost of coverage would be required to pay a percentage of payroll toward the costs of a public insurance plan. But small businesses would be exempt from that requirement. ___ McCAIN: "We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 nuclear power plants right away." THE FACTS: For nuclear power to lower oil dependency would require a massive shift to electric or hybrid-electric cars, with nuclear power providing the electricity. No new U.S. nuclear reactor has been built since the 1970s. Although 15 utilities have filed applications to build 24 new reactors, none is expected to be built before 2015 at the earliest. Turmoil in the credit markets could force cancellation of some of the projects now planned, much less spur construction of 45 new reactors, as reactor costs have soared to about $9 billion apiece. ___

[copernicus 0]

If people aren't aware of each candidates stances on most of the major issues by now, they never will be. There wasn't any new message from either side. I like Obama obviously which I would expect makes you cringe a bit. Personally, I was rooting for Hillary which I KNOW makes you cringe. Those two have such similar policy it didn't matter to me much but the most important thing was which one is electable. Despite the polling numbers, I'm not sure Obama is. God I hope I'm wrong. Once thing I liked in this debate was the polarizing aspect of the Roe V Wade issue and how important Supreme Court appointments will be to the next administration. This isn't something I expected to see discussed. When McCain looked into the camera and congratulated Joe the plumber for being rich showed me how poorly he does when he moves away from the script. Maybe I misread it and people respond to that type of humor. I'm kind of slow, but he looked silly to me.

Since my income parallels Joes, I understood the sarcasm.

[GWCGWC 83]

then you'll get your wish, and enjoy watching the economy swirl down the toilet.

ummmmmmmm

no. financial markets != the economy. And a good part of the financial market problem is Obamas lead in the polls.

WHAT?? The largest socialist move this government has undertaken in the last 60 years has taken place in the past two weeks lead by the current administration. It has/had nothing to do with Obama leading in the polls.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

First to the key points than my analysis of what I saw:Obama-protect the lead and don't do anything stupid- CHECK.-stick to the economy and the issues- CHECK. He spent a little time defending himself but mostly tried to stick to issues.-link McCain to Bush policies- NOPE. McCain made a great early comment, "I'm not George Bush" and Obama's response to that didn't do an effective job of linking the two.McCain-attack Obama without alienating independents- CHECK. I don't think he pressed too hard and held back enough not to upset independants.-scare people away from voting for an "unknown" candidate with a shady cast of friends. NOPE. He made some mentions of Ayers and co. but nothing too lasting or powerful.-explain his plan and offer solutions. CHECK. The format was MUCH better than the other two debates and McCain finally had an opportunity to explain his views and what he would do if elected. Before I touch on the issues, a few random thoughts. Obama certainly looked more calm, cool, and collected, but his smiles and smirks while McCain was attacking him on serious issues could easily come off as arrogant. Kind of like, "Please old man, you are not going to try that on me bro, I'm way to slick for that line of attack." As for McCain, he was trying to be more energetic, trying to be more passionate, REALLY trying to win, but I think he came off wrong. He came off as angry and flustered much of the time and was talking WAY faster than he normally does which caused him to lose his train of thought on several occasions and become repetitive. Now to the issues:ECONOMY: McCain started out strong and I think Obama was a big flat. Aside from my personal views on the economy, I think McCain improved so dramatically in this portion in comparison to past debates that I give him the edge.NEGATIVE ADS: Again, I though McCain owned him pretty hard here by using the line, "He has spent more money on negative ads than any campaign in history. It's unprecedented." Obama tried to avoid talking about why he is doing that and his response was very weak.HEALTH CARE: Being as objective as I can, I swear I think Obama just destroyed him on this issue. He came across as more knowledgeable and had a more in-depth plan than McCain. All McCain really added to this section is, "More of the same, only you can get health care anywhere you want, and oh, I'll throw you a bone, giving you $5000 bucks... that I'm going to tax by the way. Serious ownage Obama here.ENERGY: Obama with another good zinger here that he used in two spots. McCain talked earlier about a spending freeze and Obama points out that spending on energy is essential for the future of the economy. McCain stuck to "drill baby drill" and nuclear energy while Obama focused more time on alternative energy sources. The fact that the US has 3% of the world's oil source and we consume 25% of the world's oil, while borrowing money from the Chinese to give to the Saudi's, is an excellent point in saying that off shore drilling is NOT a long term solution and we need one. I have the edge to Obama here by a close margin.ROE VS WADE: I felt like Obama did a much better job of connecting to women here and for the first time really spent more time on the important issue of Obama, clarifying his positions on late term abortions. His answers would simply not please the conservative right, but in terms of winning over independents he did very well as the majority of independents are pro-choice. From a purely political perspective, Obama wins here based on the swing voters.EDUCATION: I found that at the core this is the one issue where the two candidates agreed more than any other. I felt like their views are actually quite similar and both did well here. I called it a wash. Based on expectation as a factor, with McCain coming in with lower expectations, I would say that he wins this final debate. Having said that, I think Obama maintains his lead in the polls, but wouldn't be surprised to see a bit of a bump for McCain. P.S. the Joe the Plumber crap annoyed the crap out of me.

[copernicus 0]

ummmmmmmm WHAT?? The largest socialist move this government has undertaken in the last 60 years has taken place in the past two weeks lead by the current administration. It has/had nothing to do with Obama leading in the polls.

The larges socialist move in the last 60 years has taken place in a totally bi-partisan effort to save the markets from the malfeasance of Barney Frank and his cronies.

[GWCGWC 83]

Here's something I've never found an answer to: How can 90% of small businesses make less than 250K per year?I mean, really? How do these companies say in business and why would they bother?

[El Guapo 8]

Here's something I've never found an answer to: How can 90% of small businesses make less than 250K per year?I mean, really? How do these companies say in business and why would they bother?

Because they don't. It's a lie.

[vbnautilus 48]

Here's something I've never found an answer to: How can 90% of small businesses make less than 250K per year?I mean, really? How do these companies say in business and why would they bother?

I think that's because all the businesses that make more than 250K are actually one big company.

[copernicus 0]

Because they don't. It's a lie.

Another Obama lie that McCain whiffed on.

[GWCGWC 83]

Because they don't. It's a lie.

Well I assumed that, but very little of the numbers candidates throw around in an election have to do with fact. I think it has to do with being able to make a statical claim. Just saying that 90% of small business in the US make less than 250K per year should scare the hell out of people.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I should add that I don't think this debate was exactly a "game changer"

[copernicus 0]

I should add that I don't think this debate was exactly a "game changer"

at best (for the GOP) it was a momentum stopper. McCain has saved a lot of his TV money for the last 10 days, but like Giulianis strategy, its probably too late.

[gobears 0]

Well I assumed that, but very little of the numbers candidates throw around in an election have to do with fact. I think it has to do with being able to make a statical claim. Just saying that 90% of small business in the US make less than 250K per year should scare the hell out of people.

Well that has to be profit - I'm sure a lot of small businesses gross $250K but not that many have profit before taxes of $250K. I actually tried to search for the actual# but came up blank.I think that if you earn $250K net of expenses, then you're doing ok.

[nutzbuster 7]

I should add that I don't think this debate was exactly a "game changer"

agree....

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Well that has to be profit - I'm sure a lot of small businesses gross $250K but not that many have profit before taxes of $250K. I actually tried to search for the actual# but came up blank.I think that if you earn $250K net of expenses, then you're doing ok.

Also most small business is exactly that, it is small. The vast majority only involve a few people and many small businesses are mom and pop operations.Edit: I'll also give an example. My Brother is doing some consulting for a franchise restaurant chain in the South East of the US. The average one is in about 3500 Sq Ft of space and grosses about $1.2 million per year and they are very happy if they net $100K after all expenses.

[CaneBrain 95]

at best (for the GOP) it was a momentum stopper. McCain has saved a lot of his TV money for the last 10 days, but like Giulianis strategy, its probably too late.

I think it is completely unfair for you to compare McCain's strategy to Giulianis. McCain has not done THAT bad.a proper analogy would be: McCain's campaign strategy : Giuliani's campaign strategy AS The Hindenburg : The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.

[copernicus 0]

Well that has to be profit - I'm sure a lot of small businesses gross $250K but not that many have profit before taxes of $250K. I actually tried to search for the actual# but came up blank.I think that if you earn $250K net of expenses, then you're doing ok.

If you can find gross revenue and shareholder statistics about 25-33% of revenues represent profits to owners/partners. Also a large number of the small business in question are law firms, medical/dental partnerships, electricians, plumbers and other trades. The owners of those businesses certainly are in that income range.

[I_fold08 1]

maybe we can become friends with russia if obama is elected

[copernicus 0]

I think it is completely unfair for you to compare McCain's strategy to Giulianis. McCain has not done THAT bad.a proper analogy would be: McCain's campaign strategy : Giuliani's campaign strategy AS The Hindenburg : The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.

I didnt say the entire campaign, I said the strategy of withholding ad money.

[wakiki 0]

My impressions:•Obama won. His answers were better organized.•McCain was bringing up many things that only political junkies will care about or understand•Obama is surprisingly unengaging when talking about specifics. (So is McCain, of course.) (This is the biggest advantage that Hillary had)•They both managed to look like complete dicks. McCain looked either infuriated or disdainful, and Obama was grinning with arrogance.•JOE THE PLUMBERRRRRRRRRRRRRR•Seriously, if one of them didn't look like a dick, he would have won the debate hands down.•Obama performed worse than he did in his debates against Hillary.•I suppose that, in the future, if I have a job and break my leg, I'll be okay. But if I get fired then break my leg, I'm ****ed.•The moderator was clearly and annoyingly biased towards Obama, a problem that didn't exist in the other debates. I don't think it had a big impact, but it was tacky.It looks to me like Obama has won every debate by a slight margin. McCain did an okay job of painting Obama as a big government guy, but he isn't explaining to people the basic reason why we don't like big government. (Had your driver's license renewed lately? Would you like our healthcare system to be this way?)

[Nimue1995 1]

On the Current channel which is the one that has "Hack the Debate", the tweets were pretty evenly divided between those who thought McCain was winning and those who thought Obama was. In the end though the Current staff asked undecideds to say whether this debate had helped them make up their mind on the candidates and almost all of the ones that said they were undecided said no. My personal impression was that McCain did a lot better in this format and with Bob S. as moderator. I thought they were much much better questions too and again Bob S. didn't let them get off on tangents too much. That said though and judging by the twitter comments, I'd say it was a tie as to who won in the end. But I have to say that McCain surprised me. Darn Republicans, I still wish you'd have nominated Ron Paul though. He was probably the candidate that comes closest to most of my political ideas especially on the issues of the Iraq war, civil liberties and balancing the budget.

[El Guapo 8]

On the Current channel which is the one that has "Hack the Debate", the tweets were pretty evenly divided between those who thought McCain was winning and those who thought Obama was. In the end though the Current staff asked undecideds to say whether this debate had helped them make up their mind on the candidates and almost all of the ones that said they were undecided said no. My personal impression was that McCain did a lot better in this format and with Bob S. as moderator. I thought they were much much better questions too and again Bob S. didn't let them get off on tangents too much. That said though and judging by the twitter comments, I'd say it was a tie as to who won in the end. But I have to say that McCain surprised me. Darn Republicans, I still wish you'd have nominated Ron Paul though. He was probably the candidate that comes closest to most of my political ideas especially on the issues of the Iraq war, civil liberties and balancing the budget.

You are very confused person aren't you?

[Nimue1995 1]

You are very confused person aren't you?

Nope. Just don't like the way the Republicans attempted to invade people's privacy on so many fronts in the name of homeland security, disease control and whatever else they might like to come up with.