how to play against the unorthodox

[Big-Ern777 0]

No offense man, but why did you post this hand if you're just going to chastise everyone else for saying the move was alright? You coulda just told the story to your parents and friends and got sympathy, if that is what you were looking for.Scary to think maybe this move that seems like it was boneheaded to you may have been made by someone with a read on you, huh?C'mon man. If you think it was a dumb move and you're not planning on wavering at all on that stance, then just forget about this thread. If you're looking for others constructive views on the hand and are willing to listen and try to understand, then quit coming back at those people.

At the time I thought of it as a bad option for getting the most chips out of the hand because of the large number of hands that are easily folding there. I can see why it's considerd a good play and in actualitly did see the reasoning behind it before I posted this topic. What I'm really looking for is how to figure out power from a bluff in this situation.Also, it's a bit annoying listening to people say it was a bad call. Of course it's a bad call when all the details are spilled in front of you and you're some commentator, but when you actually put consideration into the hand and put yourself in my seat I think it becomes a bit more difficult to call it plain "bad".

[NickTheKid 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

[hexag1 0]

with only 3000 chips, and 1800 already in the pot, he probably didnt want to see a you pick up a flush draw or a straight draw on the turn and then be able to call his allin. now you wouldnt have picked up a flush draw on the turn, but he didnt know that. if you had. well lets seee...say he bets 900 into the pot [ a 1/2 pot bet is pretty good for TPTK] now the pot is 3500 and he has 2100 chips left, if you pick up a flush draw on the turn, you might be able to call him all in out draw him. he didnt want to take that risk.. [which is admittedly conservative] so he moved in because he figured that the flop didnt offer much in the way of drawing hands [A 8 5 rainbow], so if he did get called, he would probably have the best hand right then. he bet that way because he didnt want to get called...or maybe you are a loose caller and he figured you would probably call.there was an similar hand on this weeks WPT episode w/john stoltzman and chau giang. down to heads up, in a big pot, john moves all in from the shortstack with the nut straight A high. with no pair and no flush showing, he had the nuts and moved all in hoping to get a call from a worse hand. chau called with 2 pair A's andQ's , and it was the deciding hand of their heads up match. really, you can only move in here hoping to get a call. you lose money if he folds, so its a risky play. i suppose in your situation, your opponent didnt have the nuts, but its a similar situation.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

Man, what am I missing here? He made a perfectly fine play, in my opinion. He flat called preflop, which is sneaky. When the flop came down Ace high, he had to figure the following:"Alright, my opponent either missed completely, made a set, or caught just a piece. If he missed completely, he's probably not gonna make a second best hand. If he made a set, I'm going bust no matter what. He raised preflop, so it's reasonable to assume he's got a weaker ace, or a hand like QQ or TT. If he has a hand like AT, I'm way ahead, and he'll have a hard time folding. Underbetting the pot is risky and suspicious, so I'll overbet the pot and make it easier for a weak ace to call."He played it very well. You raised preflop, and he had every reason to believe you'd call with a weaker ace, and fold everything else no matter WHAT he bet. Thoughts?Ice

personally, I would have checkraisedthe guy raised 700 preflop so its almost a given, no matter what the flop comes(or the raisers hole cards) hes betting the flop. with 1400 and change out there, the player holding AK can expect a bet of 700-pot size, than he can move in and the A9 hand has just committed himself with 3 outs. every now and then I will lead right out at the raiser with a big hand, but not always. I kind of agree with op, I would have wanted to get some dead money in there.what if he raised with QJ on the button, and the flop is A 8 5 ?if it was me and I was the original raiser Im betting the flop representing the ace.he lost his chance of getting some bluff $$ by moving in, however he still got paidnot crazy about the call op. but your assesment of the situation is right.

[Big-Ern777 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

Dimwitted? please...It was the wrong call..dimwitted is just an extreme exaggeration though on your part. It's different if I'm calling him with medium pair or JJ.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

Dimwitted? please...It was the wrong call..dimwitted is just an extreme exaggeration though on your part. It's different if I'm calling him with medium pair or JJ.

I dont think the call is horrible either, just not good. the op knows this. the player with AK could easily have 99 1010 67 jj or a stone cold bluff putting the original raiser on a steal. the op could have had the best hand, but it wasnt the spot to put the chips in. sometimes you lay the best hand down, sometimes you get bluffed. its our job to figure out when its happening. dont flame the op, he knows whats up :wink:

[NickTheKid 0]

I'm not trying to flame, but the OP is saying stuff like this to posters who disagree with it like I do."Let's see if you could throw A-9 away"Everyone makes bad calls every game, you can't beat yourself up about it.

[dtemp 0]

Considering your read (which was entirely plausible), I think your call was fine. You just got outplayed. But more often than not I think you are going to make money in situations like this.

[TheIceman05 0]

Flop comes A 8 5 and I check, SB goes all-in for about half my stack (roughly 3500).

Huh. I just noticed something. The poster before this mentioned something about going for a check raise, and I vaguely remembered the OP claiming that he checked the flop......But the Small Blind move all in?? How can he have moved at it if you checked? Did he move at the turn? You were the button, weren't you? Some clarification would help. Ice

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

It was four-handed in an online Sit & Go tourney at Stars at the final table.If found this players move interesting, but at the same time poor when it comes down to the number of times he's going to be called.Blinds 100/200 Stack: 8,000I'm on the button and raise to 700 with A 9 and the SB calls, everyone else folds.Flop comes A 8 5 and I check, SB goes all-in for about half my stack (roughly 3500). I figure ok, he called me with some like 6-7 and is trying to steal or maybe he's bold enough to be pushing in on K-K. I call and he turns over AK. Wow...only about 1800 in the pot and he's pushing that hard (3500 more) hoping to get a call. .

Wait.. if he's the small blind, how can you check and he bet? Are you sure he wasn't the button, and you the small blind, and he did the pre flop raising, and you the calling, and you trapped yourself? Hmmmmm?

[Puddleglum5555 0]

It was four-handed in an online Sit & Go tourney at Stars at the final table.If found this players move interesting, but at the same time poor when it comes down to the number of times he's going to be called.Blinds 100/200 Stack: 8,000I'm on the button and raise to 700 with A 9 and the SB calls, everyone else folds.Flop comes A 8 5 and I check, SB goes all-in for about half my stack (roughly 3500). I figure ok, he called me with some like 6-7 and is trying to steal or maybe he's bold enough to be pushing in on K-K. I call and he turns over AK. Wow...only about 1800 in the pot and he's pushing that hard (3500 more) hoping to get a call. .

Wait.. if he's the small blind, how can you check and he bet? Are you sure he wasn't the button, and you the small blind, and he did the pre flop raising, and you the calling, and you trapped yourself? Hmmmmm?

double hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Big-Ern777 0]

It was four-handed in an online Sit & Go tourney at Stars at the final table.If found this players move interesting, but at the same time poor when it comes down to the number of times he's going to be called.Blinds 100/200 Stack: 8,000I'm on the button and raise to 700 with A 9 and the SB calls, everyone else folds.Flop comes A 8 5 and I check, SB goes all-in for about half my stack (roughly 3500). I figure ok, he called me with some like 6-7 and is trying to steal or maybe he's bold enough to be pushing in on K-K. I call and he turns over AK. Wow...only about 1800 in the pot and he's pushing that hard (3500 more) hoping to get a call. .

Wait.. if he's the small blind, how can you check and he bet? Are you sure he wasn't the button, and you the small blind, and he did the pre flop raising, and you the calling, and you trapped yourself? Hmmmmm?

double hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

My mistake, I was SB he was BB. This is what made it even more difficult to put him on AK as he could of been protecting his BB, but instead he opted to just flat call which was a great play. Now that i think more about it, I did see him push all in at the flop earlier with a made hand that was fairly strong (something like top pair with a flush draw) and should have taken note of that or at least seen the warning light go off. I agree now that it's a spot were I could have limited my losses and either avoided a bad situation or given him credit for the bluff having seen him put all on the line with a strong hand before. I learned a few months ago that the key to poker is knowing where you stand and having the ability to lay down a big hand as such and pick your spots seeing as if you believe you can outplay the guy you don't need to push chips in a blind spot. It's still tough though, when you combine the number of hands he could have and your odds with picking your spots and when to make a great lay down. It's one big problem that doesn't have an easy answer with so many factors to consider.

[Scott Aigner MD 0]

Gee Big Ern,I thought about the check on the flop too and just thought that you made a mistake in your writing when discussing how the situation went down. I have seen this type of play hundreds of times in major tournaments though and indeed in HINDSIGHT even you now admit that you didn't think of your opponent's prior tendencies when he moved in with a strong hand on a prior play. I do hope you learned something here, not just about an unorthodox play ( the reverse trap play of acting weak when strong by over betting the pot) but also that you need to pay more attention to your opponent's tendencies. I would also hope that you explain the situation a little clearer in your next post. The game is poker and we cannot all make the right play all of the time. Even when we do make the right play the outcome is still not known until the last card hits the board and we see who has the best hand. I understand how this situation and our critiques of your play can upset you. I said my analysis was hindsight 20/20. The fact of the matter is that you yourself failed to realize that a-k in this situation can be a very good hand to slow play. Johnny Chan did it in the WSOP. I can name a number of times where this situation occured and a great player out manuevered their opponent by not reraising preflop and then making a huge over bet on the flop when an opponent was trying to trap them.Once you raised in this situation and your opponent called you have no information on his holding really. Once you check the flop you also do not gain any information on your opponent and you were put to the tough decision by his play. A lead bet could have told you more here whether your hand was the best. I doubt the outcome would have been different though as the chip count was such that once that flop hit you would have a difficult time getting away from your hand unless you had an excellent read on your opponent. In a live tournament I could possibly get away from my hand but online it is almost impossible. (*Note the word possibly above). It did come down to the fact that you were playing aggressively and your opponent had you read right that you would not be able to fold your hand if you had any decent pair as well as an ace in your hand. Sure it is a tough situation that you faced here but the play of your opponent was not as unorthodox as you think. I hope you learned how your opponent outplayed you here and put it to good use the next time you are in the BB and the SB raises you preflop. I also hope that you learned that it is o.k. to defend your opinion but do it without p.i.s.s.ing everyone off in the process :wink: ! Scott

[UNCpoker 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

Dimwitted? please...It was the wrong call..dimwitted is just an extreme exaggeration though on your part. It's different if I'm calling him with medium pair or JJ.

JJ or A-9, no difference. Both very weak hands in this situation.What type of read did you have on this player as to the type of player he was? You talk about the mistake you think he made with the AK, but in online play, he made the right play, people will call with weak Aces all day, maybe he had you pegged as a calling station?I mean your read of him was wrong which as just as bad as making that call.Either way, online you have to push a lot harder, because the weak will still call, but you want to make them pay even more the times that they do to keep those river chasers out on you.

[Big-Ern777 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

Dimwitted? please...It was the wrong call..dimwitted is just an extreme exaggeration though on your part. It's different if I'm calling him with medium pair or JJ.

JJ or A-9, no difference. Both very weak hands in this situation.What type of read did you have on this player as to the type of player he was? You talk about the mistake you think he made with the AK, but in online play, he made the right play, people will call with weak Aces all day, maybe he had you pegged as a calling station?I mean your read of him was wrong which as just as bad as making that call.Either way, online you have to push a lot harder, because the weak will still call, but you want to make them pay even more the times that they do to keep those river chasers out on you.

While I agree, the key to having success in online poker is to push hard, no way in hell do you believe calling with JJ and A-9 is the same thing...unless of course we consider medium pair and top pair to be the same... The difference is JJ is a hand I can lay down, A9 definitely would take more will power though.I also don't need anymore posts trying to preach about the play, I've said before that I already understand it. I'm not sure if everyone's missed the meaning of the thread, but it was to know what to do in this situation and how to aviod this from happening, not to debate why the play wasn't orthodox.

[UNCpoker 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

Dimwitted? please...It was the wrong call..dimwitted is just an extreme exaggeration though on your part. It's different if I'm calling him with medium pair or JJ.

JJ or A-9, no difference. Both very weak hands in this situation.What type of read did you have on this player as to the type of player he was? You talk about the mistake you think he made with the AK, but in online play, he made the right play, people will call with weak Aces all day, maybe he had you pegged as a calling station?I mean your read of him was wrong which as just as bad as making that call.Either way, online you have to push a lot harder, because the weak will still call, but you want to make them pay even more the times that they do to keep those river chasers out on you.

While I agree, the key to having success in online poker is to push hard, no way in hell do you believe calling with JJ and A-9 is the same thing...unless of course we consider medium pair and top pair to be the same... The difference is JJ is a hand I can lay down, A9 definitely would take more will power though.I also don't need anymore posts trying to preach about the play, I've said before that I already understand it. I'm not sure if everyone's missed the meaning of the thread, but it was to know what to do in this situation and how to aviod this from happening, not to debate why the play wasn't orthodox.

Like most on here have said, pushing hard with a weak ace just isn't good poker unless you are 95% sure what the other player has , the only difference is that you are trapping yourself more. Trust me if you can push hard with AK, top pair and top kicker and still get your arse kicked. Again in a live tourney it would be different, but you are talking online.I just played a hand where I was in the BB with AK, 2 limpers of 10 each to match the BB, so I raised to 80 in the BB, one limper called, the flop was AKJ, so I push hard thinking no way I am beat, so I bet 2 times the pot to find out where I am, well he limped with Q-10, then called my preflop raise with it, I had 2 pair and he flopped the str8, which is pretty hard to put him on. Anyways, lost a big pot on a better starting hand than A-9.Nobody is really trying to bash you, I think most are just saying that A-9 isn't all that, and you seem to think it is. You hear a lot of talk about A-J being a trouble hand on this site, well if A-J is trouble then A-9 sure is.But hey, if you don't want constructive criticism then I wouldn't start anymore threads like this one berating a play that somebody else made, when most think that this player played the hand better than you did.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Yeah man, that was a bad call. If you were on a flush draw, sure I'd call.. but all you have is top pair, medium kicker, he could have the following that beats you. Ace 8, 5 rainbow A-A, A-K, A-Q, A-J, A-10, A-8, A-5, 8-5, 8-8, 5,5.

is it just me or is this a glaring hypocrisy? Bad call, top pair and you felt he was bluffing. Wait, if you were on a flush draw, and someone just doubled the pot, sure i'd call...??? Please no one list the number of hands that beat a flush draw :wink:

[jack24bauer24 0]

I think its pretty silly to think this is unorthodox playing. He didnt have all that many chips and his plan worked.How is it a bad play? Plus, if he goes all in, gets called, and wins with the big hand, everyone at the table is going to remember his sneaky play and huge all in bet, and will be able to steal later more easily if required.Good play on his part.Unless you were beating him, then its a terrible play....

[NickTheKid 0]

Yeah man, that was a bad call. If you were on a flush draw, sure I'd call.. but all you have is top pair, medium kicker, he could have the following that beats you. Ace 8, 5 rainbow A-A, A-K, A-Q, A-J, A-10, A-8, A-5, 8-5, 8-8, 5,5.

is it just me or is this a glaring hypocrisy? Bad call, top pair and you felt he was bluffing. Wait, if you were on a flush draw, and someone just doubled the pot, sure i'd call...??? Please no one list the number of hands that beat a flush draw :wink:

If you cant see why top pair with a 4-flush is better than top pair, stop playing poker.

[trippkc 0]

I don't understand you, you post this and don't expect ANYONE to critique this dimwitted play? Let me give you a peice of advice: Everyone makes mistakes, you might as well stop defending yourself.When you get to that part of the tournament, you have one objective: Place as high as you can, you could have sat back and held your own for a couple more blinds and made a move with something better than Top pair, medium kicker. Understand?

When you get to that part of a tournament, the main objective is to win. The OP made a read on his opponent, and whether it was right or wrong isn't the point. You have to trust your reads at that point, if you think you have the best hand then call. I think both players played it pretty well, in the SB against the BB, A9 is gonna be favored over a random hand. The BB could have had a number of hands, if he felt he was going to push he could have been thinking about a stop and go after the flop. The only thing I don't like is the SB checking the flop. You have to put out a bet to find out where you are, unless you think you're trapping the guy then calling his all-in would be your goal anyways.

[NickTheKid 0]

I agree, winning is the biggest thing. And what he did wasn't a winning play. That was bad bad bad if you ask me. He can pick much MUCH better spots to get his money in.EDIT: Let's analyze.. shall we?He called 3.5 the Pre flop raise, something a lot of people with A- (10-K) do.He raised on the flop with the A-9, then gets RE-RAISED!!!! First of all, bells should have been going off in his head right away on the kicker he had, cause for certain, the guy wouldnt be so bold with a pocket pair under an ace, esp. after the strength the OP showed. Hell, I'd be MOST worried about Ace-8 SUITED cause thats a good hand to call that kind of raise with.

[Wingmaster05 0]

If you cant see why top pair with a 4-flush is better than top pair, stop playing poker.

Logic says i took that as a flush draw ONLY, seeing that is all that he said; ehh, now that i look at it, it can be seen either way

[NickTheKid 0]

.. it was a miscomunication, sorry

[trippkc 0]

I agree, winning is the biggest thing. And what he did wasn't a winning play. That was bad bad bad if you ask me. He can pick much MUCH better spots to get his money in.EDIT: Let's analyze.. shall we?He called 3.5 the Pre flop raise, something a lot of people with A- (10-K) do.He raised on the flop with the A-9, then gets RE-RAISED!!!! First of all, bells should have been going off in his head right away on the kicker he had, cause for certain, the guy wouldnt be so bold with a pocket pair under an ace, esp. after the strength the OP showed. Hell, I'd be MOST worried about Ace-8 SUITED cause thats a good hand to call that kind of raise with.

I agree with you, but the thing that got him in trouble was that I believe he checked the flop. When he raised preflop and then hit his card, he has to put out some kind of bet to find out where he is in the hand. If he does in fact get re-raised, then yes, that is a hand you can get away from. His original question was how he can distinguish between a bluff or not with a huge overbet. When you check you give yourself no information and are basically giving him a green light to take that pot. If you check your A9, what are you hoping he does? If he is shortstacked and you check, his thinking was probably, "I will try to pick this pot up now, but if he calls I think I have the best hand anyways." So to answer your original question, don't give your opponent the opportunity to go all-in with any hand, put out a bet and if he still comes over the top, you probably have to give him credit for some strength.

[NickTheKid 0]

you are right.. he did check, my bad... I still stand on the bad read.