Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[mhoward29 0]

yeah, but I think you're kinda skimming over the part where he says to raise it, without thinking about why he says that, the point of that raise.

yeah, but I think my liking the flat call on the flop goes back to that "knowing" what your opponent is going to do that you mentioned. Since he capped like you figured he would pre, a raise on the flop to the donk bet is going to happen a high % of the time with the villan you described. Therefore to get more money in the pot like I want to do a flat call there isnt horrible imo, but not checkys obv. But I think you missed the two opportunities you had on the flop to make a correct play. One being you didnt raise the SB's donkbet as to do what checky said to thin the field. Two being that you didnt 3bet with the best hand when the PF capper raised your flat call.Suprisingly with a 3bet you still might get players to fold. I cant remember HH exactly for this, but say a villan on OTB has K10o and the hand is played as is up to the PF capper raising the donkbet and you flatting. So its two bets to the button and he has K10o, he is going to call two bets, so he does. But it comes back to you and you three bet. Then the PF capper caps the flop also. Now how do you think the button feels with a weak K in this pot? Not always, but sometimes players will just muck this, weather they are getting the correct or incorrect price to call. Hell, if you 3bet and PF capper just calls you may even get people to muck. Maybe not very often but you have shown alot of strength. You suprised everyone by now showing your true colors. Someone who was just coming along for the ride with middle pair might just muck, knowing that there are now two big hands out there, not just one like everyone thought.This is just how I feel about it. Sorry so long.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I also want to say again, that when I say something like "you criticized me" I don't mean it to be confrontational. I think all of the criticism in here is of the most constructive kind, and I think it's kind of a semantic thing.. I could have say " you brought up" or "you thought that' or what ever, but it's all the same, in my opinion. I don't take any criticism of my play personal. If I did, believe me, you'd know. There are plenty of examples on these forums of what I'm like when I take a post personally lol

[Mattnxtc 0]

Good. I need to do that myself. HEM is the bees knees, IMO

I would make sure on the last day that you export the hands out to make sure you catch them all...transferred over 150k hands, but I dont know what else I lost.

[mhoward29 0]

Um lol I don't know how you think I'm looking at these discussions. I don't think there's anything wrong with criticism Criticism isn't, in and of itself, a negative thing, and I find it strange that you would consider it as such. Don't worry, I have a thick skin. And, again, I am trying to tell you, that my flop calls weren't with passive intentions, they were aggressive, but a delayed aggression. My intention was to take an aggressive mode on the turn...and again, it's the turn where I think I made the mistake, and played passively. When trying to narrow the field was no longer an option, I should have extracted value with a turn check raise ( and maybe UTG puts in a 3rd raise, which would have made the other AA have a very tough decision indeed). I could have both gotten value and potentially narrowed the field. But I didn't, I chickened out, because I didn't analyize the UTG+1's hand range enough, and think about how well my hand does against the entire field. I did play passively on the hand, but just not for the reasons you think.

Ok good I didnt want you to feel that I was attacking you or anything.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

yeah, but I think my liking the flat call on the flop goes back to that "knowing" what your opponent is going to do that you mentioned. Since he capped like you figured he would pre, a raise on the flop to the donk bet is going to happen a high % of the time with the villan you described. Therefore to get more money in the pot like I want to do a flat call there isnt horrible imo, but not checkys obv. But I think you missed the two opportunities you had on the flop to make a correct play. One being you didnt raise the SB's donkbet as to do what checky said to thin the field. Two being that you didnt 3bet with the best hand when the PF capper raised your flat call.Suprisingly with a 3bet you still might get players to fold. I cant remember HH exactly for this, but say a villan on OTB has K10o and the hand is played as is up to the PF capper raising the donkbet and you flatting. So its two bets to the button and he has K10o, he is going to call two bets, so he does. But it comes back to you and you three bet. Then the PF capper caps the flop also. Now how do you think the button feels with a weak K in this pot? Not always, but sometimes players will just muck this, weather they are getting the correct or incorrect price to call. Hell, if you 3bet and PF capper just calls you may even get people to muck. Maybe not very often but you have shown alot of strength. You suprised everyone by now showing your true colors. Someone who was just coming along for the ride with middle pair might just muck, knowing that there are now two big hands out there, not just one like everyone thought.This is just how I feel about it. Sorry so long.

But, I don't see why you're so hell bent on getting value on the flop, when you can get it on the turn. You say "you had two opportunites to make the correct play on the flop" and I just don't aggree that it's the correct play. I think the correct play is to come out of the weeds on the turn. My plan had two options..... one, the SB's donk bet doesn't get raised, and he retains the betting lead on the turn, where I can raise. two, the UTG raises on the flop, and I can expect him to retain the betting lead on the turn, where I check raise. Of course, the plan would change of UTG +1 3 bets three or raises the turn. I'd be more inclined to capp the flop in that scenerio, or shut down on the turn and cal if he raises the turn. But, in general, I like both of the plans for the turn raise, either check or make them cold call...I don't think my plans are flawed, I just chickened out because of UTG+1 on the turn, which I should not have. The value in my plan is that I can also see what UTG+1 does, before making my decisions to raise or put more money in the pot. The possibility of him having KK or QQ was very real, since he smooth called the flop and didn't raise it... but since he didn't raise on the turn, I should have discounted that. The scenerio you're talking about, which I bolded does not exsist. There was no OTB plyaer.. there was a small blind, who had 10-6 off, and I didn't mind him in the pot at all, he was along for the ride, pretty much no matter what, because he was such a loose player. I wasn't worried about him at all, unless he check raised the turn or river. He wouldn't have folded to a capped flop, I don't believe. I don't think he would have folded in any case. He over called on the river when his hand was completely hopeless. He was an extremely bad, loose player. He wasn't really the one I had any intention of thinning the field. It was the UTG and UTG+1 that I would have wanted to thin ( and have a reasonable expectation of being able to) thin.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I would make sure on the last day that you export the hands out to make sure you catch them all...transferred over 150k hands, but I dont know what else I lost.

Too late.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

this discussion to be continued... I need to go shovel my god damn driveway. Cck sucking snow...

[mhoward29 0]

But, I don't see why you're so hell bent on getting value on the flop, when you can get it on the turn. You say "you had two opportunites to make the correct play on the flop" and I just don't aggree that it's the correct play. I think the correct play is to come out of the weeds on the turn. My plan had two options..... one, the SB's donk bet doesn't get raised, and he retains the betting lead on the turn, where I can raise. two, the UTG raises on the flop, and I can expect him to retain the betting lead on the turn, where I check raise. Of course, the plan would change of UTG +1 3 bets three or raises the turn. I'd be more inclined to capp the flop in that scenerio, or shut down on the turn and cal if he raises the turn. But, in general, I like both of the plans for the turn raise, either check or make them cold call...I don't think my plans are flawed, I just chickened out because of UTG+1 on the turn, which I should not have. The value in my plan is that I can also see what UTG+1 does, before making my decisions to raise or put more money in the pot. The possibility of him having KK or QQ was very real, since he smooth called the flop and didn't raise it... but since he didn't raise on the turn, I should have discounted that. The scenerio you're talking about, which I bolded does not exsist. There was no OTB plyaer.. there was a small blind, who had 10-6 off, and I didn't mind him in the pot at all, he was along for the ride, pretty much no matter what, because he was such a loose player. I wasn't worried about him at all, unless he check raised the turn or river. He wouldn't have folded to a capped flop, I don't believe. I don't think he would have folded in any case. He over called on the river when his hand was completely hopeless. He was an extremely bad, loose player. He wasn't really the one I had any intention of thinning the field. It was the UTG and UTG+1 that I would have wanted to thin ( and have a reasonable expectation of being able to) thin.

Bolded- ya I knew that it couldnt have been right, but I thought there was someone that had position on you and the PF capper that had Kx. To make sure that this person had position on both of you in my example I just called him the button with a medium to weak Kx hand.I see what you are saying wanting to come out on the turn. I think its just a difference of opinion is all. Ive just always been a fan of getting the money in when you have the best of it. Nothing fancy at our limits just I just dont think it is needed. You may not have the best of it later on in the hand. I sometimes do what you tried to do in this hand and wait until a later, more expensive street to jam but I could work on doing it more.

[CobaltBlue 662]

There are plenty of examples on these forums of what I'm like when I take a post personally lol

To be honest, I thought you were kind of an ass until this thread. :icon_biggrin:Also, MH...BDMG is correct in his application of SSHE concepts here, but yes, I understand the disagreement.

[mhoward29 0]

To be honest, I thought you were kind of an ass until this thread. :icon_biggrin:Also, MH...BDMG is correct in his application of SSHE concepts here, but yes, I understand the disagreement.

So ive been playing incorrectly this whole time? Nice...

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

So ive been playing incorrectly this whole time? Nice...

no, it's not that.. it's just that the SSHE situations don't come up that much on line. It's a rare situation when you have a 4+ capped preflop in a 6 max game online. I'm more used to this situation, because the live games I learned how to play in were 10 handed, and there were 6+ people seeing flops, and often those would be capped, if you had the right crazy azns (And me) in the game.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

To be honest, I thought you were kind of an ass until this thread.

I am kind of an ass, so your read was correct.

[DinkDonk 1]

So ive been playing incorrectly this whole time? Nice...

Well I think the problem here is that you are talking in general terms as opposed to specific. Mac isn't saying he usually likes to wait for the turn to get value for his hands as a default line. The thing with this hand is that we are in a very, very bloated pot with a hand that is sure to be up against a ton of outs. So if there is a chance to thin the field and fold out hands that have a decent amount of equity, the line that would do that would be very +EV because it would protect the large chunk of equity we have with our strong hand in a very large pot. So in this spot, Mac is saying that there is no way to thin the field on the flop, but he thinks that there is a good chance for him to do so on the turn if he calls and allows the other player to keep the betting lead so that he can face the field with 2 cold on the turn. Either way, players are going to be getting correct odds to draw to a ton of hands. I understand your point about getting value from hands that would peel correctly, and it's a valid one, but in this pot, we would rather get value from incorrect folds than we would from correct calls as those hands that fold are forfeiting a very large chunk of equity when the pot gets to be this large. So the basic disagreement centers around whether or not we feel we can get hands with reasonable amounts of equity to fold. Mac believes that we can by taking a call flop, raise turn line. You believe that it's possible to get folds by raising the flop, but even if we don't we pick up the equity from those hands that are drawing to ~5 outs.

[DinkDonk 1]

So to sum up the previous post-In gigantic pots, it's often correct to take a line that will increase our own equity in pots by folding out hands that have a reasonable amount of equity.In smaller pots, it's less important to protect our equity and more important to gain value via bets on current and future streets.In this spot, we have a very large pot and in Mac's eyes, an opportunity to fold out hands by taking a line that gets us less value on the flop, but increases our equity share by making others give up their own. Mhoward would rather jam the flop to gain equity on bets going into a pot that he owns a large equity share of. If we assume Mac's reads are correct, I side with his line. However, this is, as Mac previously said, a very rare spot and not one to get overly enamored with or disheartened by.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Also, there's another thing to consider, that fits into the way I played my hand pre-flop. Because I just cold called, instead of raising pre flop, My hand is a bit more of a mystery to them. So, my raising the donk bet on the flop, raising the donk bet on the turn, or check raising on the turn, all will look stronger than they actually are. No one can have any expectation that I have aces in that situation, so if I raise the donk bet on the turn, or check raise, it will look way stronger than it actually is. It might suggest that I have a slow played set, or turned two pair, or have a stronger hand.. hands with five outs may think ( incorrectly) that they are drawing dead or ugly. By not capping preflop, my hand actually looks stronger post. If I'd had the balls to raise the turn, at least.

[DinkDonk 1]

I'm eating fresh tomato basil soup right now. It's nothing short of heavenly. I pity all of you and your less than heavenly lunches.

[Painter567 0]

I'm eating fresh tomato basil soup right now. It's nothing short of heavenly. I pity all of you and your less than heavenly lunches.

I had Mimis Cafe.http://www.mimiscafe.com/Had this...Creamy Corn Chowder& this...Crispy Parmesan Crusted Chicken Lightly fried and topped with marinara sauce & melted mozzarella on spaghettini pasta

[DinkDonk 1]

Corn chowder is like my all time favorite soup. Brad may join me in my pity for the rest of you.Edit- Mine is from here http://theglobemarket.com/takeoutmenu.html. I am also having the Cuban Reuben. And a Sam Adams Boston Lager.

[HighwayStar 8]

& this...Crispy Parmesan Crusted Chicken Lightly fried and topped with marinara sauce & melted mozzarella on spaghettini pasta

:ooh manmelted cheese is just the best thing everdsafdsaccdsasigh, you made me hungryI had something nice for dinner, I can't remember what it was, but there's a nice taste in my mouthThere was courgette in it.Drinking some sort of white wine as well.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I'm enjoying a try turkey sandwich on stale bread, a grape fruit ( I practice what I preach) and I have a back that got thrown out from walking down my driveway and slipping on black ice. Fck nebraska in the ear.

[checkymcfold 0]

dink's sum up post is pretty good, imo.i could easily be persuaded that you're unlikely to thin the field on the flop and more likely to do so on the turn. if so, by all means.... the main concern is that we have a strong, vulnerable hand in a huge and hugely multiway pot, and our absolute #1 concern should be to get as many people to gtfo of our pot somewhere along the line.it's worth saying, though, that people with very tight stats (assuming that this is the same table as your other hands) often have it written on stone tablets that they should never call 2 cold on the flop with a gutterball, or 2 overcards, or bottom pair, or whatever.dink, there is a really good corn chowder made by some organic company on sale for 2.50 a box by the deli meats area in wegman's (which is where i hope you do your grocery shopping--it's the best grocery store i've ever been to, and i wish they would open everywhere).oh, and one more thing, **** everyone who thinks that their snow is even close to as annoying as buffalo snow.

[HighwayStar 8]

holeeee crap 50NL 6max is boring. I'd have to 10 table this to make it bearable.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

dink's sum up post is pretty good, imo.i could easily be persuaded that you're unlikely to thin the field on the flop and more likely to do so on the turn. if so, by all means.... the main concern is that we have a strong, vulnerable hand in a huge and hugely multiway pot, and our absolute #1 concern should be to get as many people to gtfo of our pot somewhere along the line.it's worth saying, though, that people with very tight stats (assuming that this is the same table as your other hands) often have it written on stone tablets that they should never call 2 cold on the flop with a gutterball, or 2 overcards, or bottom pair, or whatever.oh, and one more thing, **** everyone who thinks that their snow is even close to as annoying as buffalo snow.

This was not the same table. Only the UTG+1 was tight. UTG was Very laggy (something like 50/33 or something on that order) and the SB was loose passive ( like 70/4 or something like that) Snow is annoying, where ever it is. I wouldn't compare mine to Buffalo (where I just would never fcking live. Lake effect snow FTL). But, I would like to say, **** that ice I slipped on right in the ear.

[DinkDonk 1]

I like Wegman's more than sex. I'll try out that corn chowder for sure. And yes Buffalo snow sucks.

[Whatever 1]

holeeee crap 50NL 6max is boring. I'd have to 10 table this to make it bearable.

Haha yea. I've played like 8500 hands in the past 2 weeks while taking a break from 1/2 6 max LHE. It's been fun and pretty profitable. Up $550 or something. I 5 and 6 table so it's not too bad. The players are horrible as a rule.I just finished a 1200 hand session of 1/2 6 max LHE and made $70 so I'm not complaining but I missed a ton of value since I'm still gunshy. Losing $850 in December at 1/2 LHE sucked. A lot. My confidence was shot and I will try to rebuild it. Slowly.