Convert Me...

[Balloon guy 158]

I mean, I agree with alot of what he/she had to say. However, if you're going to call Balloon Guy the poster child for everything that's bad with religion, I think it's really distasteful to do it behind a dupe. Maybe he/she is afraid of not getting a free cuban on the next golf outing.

And being the poster boy for DN fanboys and Right wing politics leaves my plate full...Of course when you all meet God at the Judgment seat, the: "Balloon guy is an idiot" defense will not be very effective.But good luck

[Balloon guy 158]

I'm not sure anyone plainly stated how awful, atraocious and bad for humankind religon is actually. Kudos to SB for being patient, well written/spoken in dealing with Balloon Guy. I had to laugh many times that his actual trolling of the thread was the very reason he should be the poster child for why religon is bad. Faith with no reason.

You're understanding of what Faith is leaves you making poorly thought out points.

The uncounted deaths and tragedies brought about by religon is unspeakable. The damage brought to children and there lifes is unspeakable.

They are almost 1/100th of the pain and death brought about by the Godless Communist, but they get a pass? Must be fun to live in make believe world

[checkymcfold 0]

i just wandered back into this thread. interesting.cinci-upon rereading your previous posts, i think that you might be interested in people talking about religion from within a christian context but with a view to a more worldly understanding of faith. someone like eckhart tolle might be a good start in that regard. he writes a lot of books for "the masses" but primarily from a christian context that you seem to be working from as well.easter bunny-i'm not sure how i derailed anything, but meh.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You're understanding of what Faith is leaves you making poorly thought out points.They are almost 1/100th of the pain and death brought about by the Godless Communist, but they get a pass? Must be fun to live in make believe world

who the hell is even talking about communists, much less giving them a pass..

[Loismustdie 0]

This is an awesome thread and glad I finally found the time to read it. I'm posting under my Easter Bunny as a pun to Spades' Santa Claus.I have alot to add or say and don't have all the time right now but I hope to reinvigorate the debate/discussion.Simply put, Cinti kid in my mind didn't really get what he was asking for here. Lots of smart people responded but it kinda got disrailed with checky's obsure notion that a different view of religon might be better somehow.I'm not sure anyone plainly stated how awful, atraocious and bad for humankind religon is actually. Kudos to SB for being patient, well written/spoken in dealing with Balloon Guy. I had to laugh many times that his actual trolling of the thread was the very reason he should be the poster child for why religon is bad. Faith with no reason.The uncounted deaths and tragedies brought about by religon is unspeakable. The damage brought to children and there lifes is unspeakable. Conversely, athiesm and science can make a remarkable difference in how you view the world for the better. No one mentioned Darwin which surprised me. He is the one the gave us an explantion for all the hows and whys in the world we exist. Natural selection explains so much it should be reveled as mankinds greatest discovery.A final thought before dinner, eating another animal to be precise, the bible is a well written amazing piece of prose. If you like Freddie Kruger or Ted Bundy you should love characters like Moses, Noah, God, and Abraham.

Pussy.

[Loismustdie 0]

You're understanding of what Faith is leaves you making poorly thought out points.They are almost 1/100th of the pain and death brought about by the Godless Communist, but they get a pass? Must be fun to live in make believe world

Now that I have met you I can picture you saying this stuff and I can appreciate it that much more. For those of you who have not had the honor, BG is a 6 foot something package of awesome. I didn't really have a dad growing up (being a poor black child and all) so when I meet men my elder that I like and can respect I tend to give them this iconic status. I have a few guys that I put up on that kind of pedestal, all well deserved. That being said, he probably thinks of me as the weird sunburned kid who dressed like a homo. (Deserved as well)

[crowTrobot 2]

Now that I have met you I can picture you saying this stuff and I can appreciate it that much more. For those of you who have not had the honor, BG is a 6 foot something package of awesome. I didn't really have a dad growing up (being a poor black child and all) so when I meet men my elder that I like and can respect I tend to give them this iconic status. I have a few guys that I put up on that kind of pedestal, all well deserved. That being said, he probably thinks of me as the weird sunburned kid who dressed like a homo. (Deserved as well)

i'd think you were a homo too if you complimented me using the words awesome and package.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Pussy.

Umm, last time I checked the Easter Bunny was... well... a bunny

[Balloon guy 158]

i'd think you were a homo too if you complimented me using the words awesome and package.

lol

[Balloon guy 158]

Now that I have met you I can picture you saying this stuff and I can appreciate it that much more. For those of you who have not had the honor, BG is a 6 foot something package of awesome. I didn't really have a dad growing up (being a poor black child and all) so when I meet men my elder that I like and can respect I tend to give them this iconic status. I have a few guys that I put up on that kind of pedestal, all well deserved. That being said, he probably thinks of me as the weird sunburned kid who dressed like a homo. (Deserved as well)

Actually I thought you were blessed by God that you weren't born with color blindness. You really make the most of colors Wish we would have had some time to sit around and talk bad about these guys together. We would have won every argument

[Balloon guy 158]

who the hell is even talking about communists, much less giving them a pass..

BigD, It's going to take forever if we have to go back everytime and explain these things.Remember, when someone mentions the crusades, or in any way the wars and such from the history of Christianity, I respond with comparing it to communism, because they always try to suggest that the atrocities of religious wars are the worst things that ever fell upon mankind. So I point out that communism, the anti-religion form of government, is responsible for 80 times more deaths directly. Then I am make the loose connection to atheism, which you guys all pretend doesn't believe what the atheist in communist countries actually do, because you can't handle the reality that government's that deny God are the most brutal forms of government, even though Crow is directly campaigning to make the whole world this way.Sometimes I add in Hitler, because he believed that evolution gave him the right to kill Jews, but I try to never use the Nazi argument since it is overused by everyone. Plus people try to lay out the 'Hitler' was a Luthern', which is a joke, but when your side is so guilty of atrocities, you gotta grasp at whatever straws are available.So in the blanket world of labels, Christian vs Atheist; it's Christians 5 million deaths, Atheist 400 million deaths.If you guys get to distance yourself from your brother atheist, then you have to allow us to distance ourselves from the Catholics in the middle ages. At least we have a few centuries between us, you guys only have a few decades.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

BigD, It's going to take forever if we have to go back everytime and explain these things.Remember, when someone mentions the crusades, or in any way the wars and such from the history of Christianity, I respond with comparing it to communism, because they always try to suggest that the atrocities of religious wars are the worst things that ever fell upon mankind. So I point out that communism, the anti-religion form of government, is responsible for 80 times more deaths directly. Then I am make the loose connection to atheism, which you guys all pretend doesn't believe what the atheist in communist countries actually do, because you can't handle the reality that government's that deny God are the most brutal forms of government, even though Crow is directly campaigning to make the whole world this way.Sometimes I add in Hitler, because he believed that evolution gave him the right to kill Jews, but I try to never use the Nazi argument since it is overused by everyone. Plus people try to lay out the 'Hitler' was a Luthern', which is a joke, but when your side is so guilty of atrocities, you gotta grasp at whatever straws are available.So in the blanket world of labels, Christian vs Atheist; it's Christians 5 million deaths, Atheist 400 million deaths.If you guys get to distance yourself from your brother atheist, then you have to allow us to distance ourselves from the Catholics in the middle ages. At least we have a few centuries between us, you guys only have a few decades.

Oh, I know why you do it, it just boggles my mind each time you do."brother atheist" el oh el. I've tried to talk to you about this before, but you blew me off ,because you apparently love using this as a mindless rhetorical device and don't want anything to threaten your fun, but I will try it again.It is not belief in god that matters, it is the religion. It is the very concept of turning your mind over to someone else. It is about freedom verses authority. It is about submitting your life, your mind unquestioning to another person/state what ever. I think this is the issue. When you forbid certain kinds of thought, when you brainwash and mold people.. it doesn't matter what you call your god, Allah, Big Brother or whatever. I don't agree with the typical "religion is the root of everything that's bad with the world". But I do think much of what's bad with the world is the way people turn off their minds and hand them over to other people. Because when you do that, any manner of atrocities can be done on your behalf. I think the Judeo-christian-islamic tradition in particular stresses authority and submission to the will of god. As much as you claim that the united states is a product of the bible, what you really see in the bible is a defense of absolute monarchy. There is nothing democratic about the nation of isreal that david founded. There is nothing democratic about the kingdom of heaven. The bible also does not condemn slavery ( though they obviously take a strong stand against jewish slavery) and the Koran takes an even more explicit and detailed support of slavery. It does not stress rational thought, but obedience, to god and state. I am pro-reason. I am pro-rational thought. I am pro freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom from dogma. No man who would brainwash his people and kill millions of them when they don't fit into the orthodoxy is my brother. F you for even suggesting it Stalin's model of power and authority share more with the bibical model than it does with reason-based political models.

[vbnautilus 48]

It's obviously a mistake to paint the alternative to religion as some kind of amoral chaos.Moral behavior has its roots in nature -- it is intrinsically valuable to us to treat each other well. The fact that we empathize with each other, for example, is a fact of brain organization; it does not depend upon any particular beliefs that we may or may not have. In fact, it seems that the opposite is true, that the natural state is to empathize but we can turn ourself off to others through beliefs that we learn (e.g. racism). Giving up on beliefs that are not supported by evidence does not mean giving up a way of life that involves kindness, empathy, and respect (nor does religion ensure these things).

[Balloon guy 158]

Oh, I know why you do it, it just boggles my mind each time you do."brother atheist" el oh el. I've tried to talk to you about this before, but you blew me off ,because you apparently love using this as a mindless rhetorical device and don't want anything to threaten your fun, but I will try it again.It is not belief in god that matters, it is the religion. It is the very concept of turning your mind over to someone else. It is about freedom verses authority. It is about submitting your life, your mind unquestioning to another person/state what ever. I think this is the issue. When you forbid certain kinds of thought, when you brainwash and mold people.. it doesn't matter what you call your god, Allah, Big Brother or whatever. I don't agree with the typical "religion is the root of everything that's bad with the world". But I do think much of what's bad with the world is the way people turn off their minds and hand them over to other people. Because when you do that, any manner of atrocities can be done on your behalf. I think the Judeo-christian-islamic tradition in particular stresses authority and submission to the will of god. As much as you claim that the united states is a product of the bible, what you really see in the bible is a defense of absolute monarchy. There is nothing democratic about the nation of isreal that david founded. There is nothing democratic about the kingdom of heaven. The bible also does not condemn slavery ( though they obviously take a strong stand against jewish slavery) and the Koran takes an even more explicit and detailed support of slavery. It does not stress rational thought, but obedience, to god and state. I am pro-reason. I am pro-rational thought. I am pro freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom from dogma. No man who would brainwash his people and kill millions of them when they don't fit into the orthodoxy is my brother. F you for even suggesting it Stalin's model of power and authority share more with the bibical model than it does with reason-based political models.

First I didn't bring this up, I used it as a rebuttal to

The uncounted deaths and tragedies brought about by religon is unspeakable. The damage brought to children and there lifes is unspeakable.

Rhetoric demands more rhetoric...it's science2nd you are placing the worst view of religion, the idea that we 'turn over our minds' is not even remotely close to the belief I have that the Creator of the world gave us guidelines to live by and following these will be the best for myself and others. If I was in a cult like Jim Jones then you would have a point. As it is your point is pure rhetoric ( see the science? accuse rhetoric by using rhetoric.)3rd, you then cherry pick the best side of your belief in, let's face it, nihlism and pretend that there is a moral code underpinning everything that makes your stance nobel. pro=rational thought..means what? you are always right? Or you believe that you are always right/ or you are convinced that others are wrong?In order to champion pro-choice, pro-thought, pro freedom you are making a round about accustion that people that don't believe as you do are anti these things. It's a very liberal way of claiming the open-minded label, while telling people that you disageree with are wrong and bad for not agreeing with you. If your thinking is wrong, then you are in fact using rhetoric to try to defend yourself. Who can be against pro- freedom of thought? Well I am pro-being right. when it comes to eternity, I would rather not assume my limited world view is enough to discount the Word of God. So when someone wants to hide behind a false name on the interweb and make blanket statements that are not only not based on facts, they are based on brainwashed stereotypical anti-God arguements that go down in flames when addressed. I just choose to address it in a more blatent manner to draw out the responses.As far as your beliefs; Is it of course normal to assume your world view is more enlightened than others, but if my side gets to be lumped in as one big word: 'Religion', don't complaign when we do the same thing to the group known as 'atheist'. if the shoe doesn't fit you personally, that doesn't mean it's not accurate to your side.

[Balloon guy 158]

It's obviously a mistake to paint the alternative to religion as some kind of amoral chaos.Moral behavior has its roots in nature -- it is intrinsically valuable to us to treat each other well. The fact that we empathize with each other, for example, is a fact of brain organization; it does not depend upon any particular beliefs that we may or may not have. In fact, it seems that the opposite is true, that the natural state is to empathize but we can turn ourself off to others through beliefs that we learn (e.g. racism). Giving up on beliefs that are not supported by evidence does not mean giving up a way of life that involves kindness, empathy, and respect (nor does religion ensure these things).

Well the argument here though is that religion is and has been bad for the entire world. Given that we are never going to know what the world would have been like had it been athiest from the day of Creation, we will never honestly know how it would have turned out.So the only tests cases we have of large communities of non-religious people is communism. I know bummer for you guys, but I didn't make the scientific method up, you guys supposedly did.On an individual level, the only true comparison is how would a person be with religion, and how would that exact same person be without it. There are too many other factors to consider to ever have a true measurement. So that allows me to pick my beliefs, and the other side to pick theirs. Then we throw rocks and pretend we are smarter for it.

[CaneBrain 95]

Well the argument here though is that religion is and has been bad for the entire world. Given that we are never going to know what the world would have been like had it been athiest from the day of Creation, we will never honestly know how it would have turned out.So the only tests cases we have of large communities of non-religious people is communism. I know bummer for you guys, but I didn't make the scientific method up, you guys supposedly did.On an individual level, the only true comparison is how would a person be with religion, and how would that exact same person be without it. There are too many other factors to consider to ever have a true measurement. So that allows me to pick my beliefs, and the other side to pick theirs. Then we throw rocks and pretend we are smarter for it.

the only real problem with religion is the 90% of people who practice it responsibly in a way that is good and healthy and enriches their lives are not vocal enough in denouncing the 10% who use religion to do things that are bad.

[Loismustdie 0]

i'd think you were a homo too if you complimented me using the words awesome and package.

To funny.

[Loismustdie 0]

the only real problem with religion is the 90% of people who practice it responsibly in a way that is good and healthy and enriches their lives are not vocal enough in denouncing the 10% who use religion to do things that are bad.

Bingo, bango, bongo,and they never will be, because that's not how it works. They just serve God, and no one knows either way. I was a bit befuddled by the gents on the strip shouting Jesus at the slow moving masses, and I wanted to say something, but what can I say? I mean, there is something to be said for timing, and since I was drunk it was not the time, but I lingered for awhile over the idea of challenging them to a duel right there in front of Planet Hollywood. I just couldn't bring myself to stoop to that level.

[CaneBrain 95]

Bingo, bango, bongo,and they never will be, because that's not how it works. They just serve God, and no one knows either way. I was a bit befuddled by the gents on the strip shouting Jesus at the slow moving masses, and I wanted to say something, but what can I say? I mean, there is something to be said for timing, and since I was drunk it was not the time, but I lingered for awhile over the idea of challenging them to a duel right there in front of Planet Hollywood. I just couldn't bring myself to stoop to that level.

I attribute a lot of it to fear.....fear that the insane 10% will accuse them of not being (insert religion here) enough. It's just like a bully.....you have to stand up to them. (although not while in Vegas drunk on the strip.....i wouldnt waste my time.) And since they will never heed the words of an atheist.....it will have to come from within the religion itself to have an impact.and this is not something that you can do on a one on one level.....it is going to take a concerted effort by the mass of religious people to reject the falwells and ayatollahs and whoever else in a public and humiliating manner

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

First I didn't bring this up, I used it as a rebuttal to Rhetoric demands more rhetoric...it's science2nd you are placing the worst view of religion, the idea that we 'turn over our minds' is not even remotely close to the belief I have that the Creator of the world gave us guidelines to live by and following these will be the best for myself and others. If I was in a cult like Jim Jones then you would have a point. As it is your point is pure rhetoric ( see the science? accuse rhetoric by using rhetoric.)3rd, you then cherry pick the best side of your belief in, let's face it, nihlism and pretend that there is a moral code underpinning everything that makes your stance nobel. pro=rational thought..means what? you are always right? Or you believe that you are always right/ or you are convinced that others are wrong?In order to champion pro-choice, pro-thought, pro freedom you are making a round about accustion that people that don't believe as you do are anti these things. It's a very liberal way of claiming the open-minded label, while telling people that you disageree with are wrong and bad for not agreeing with you. If your thinking is wrong, then you are in fact using rhetoric to try to defend yourself. Who can be against pro- freedom of thought? Well I am pro-being right. when it comes to eternity, I would rather not assume my limited world view is enough to discount the Word of God. So when someone wants to hide behind a false name on the interweb and make blanket statements that are not only not based on facts, they are based on brainwashed stereotypical anti-God arguements that go down in flames when addressed. I just choose to address it in a more blatent manner to draw out the responses.As far as your beliefs; Is it of course normal to assume your world view is more enlightened than others, but if my side gets to be lumped in as one big word: 'Religion', don't complaign when we do the same thing to the group known as 'atheist'. if the shoe doesn't fit you personally, that doesn't mean it's not accurate to your side.

Again, you are the one trying to lump it into "my side" You have this strange black/ white, right/wrong right/left world view that everything is one side or the other. The idea that you lump the spectrum of various rejections of Biblical Christianity into one "movement" is funny. Christianity is anti reason, by the way. Faith is not rational. Believing that the Creator gave use guidelines to live by and following them is the best for you and others is not a rational belief system. It is a faith based one. And while I think your particular brand of faith is relatively harmless to me (though I think it's expression in politics is anti-scientific and destructive) and probably extremely helpful to you, it is not the case with all brands of faith. Like the faith of the radical muslim. Or the state sponsored faith in the Revolutionary party. For you, in your black and white world view, the salient issue is god. Maoist China was atheist, therefor evil, and their actions reflected that evil. I, whom reject the idea of god or an objective basis for good and Evil, don't view Maoist china as evil. I view it as irrational and destructive. I view it as the worst example of the use of Authority and power by a state. I find the way they brainwashed their citizens and restricted their information to be appalling. It's this state authority and power that I reject. I think authoritarianism is the enemy of freedom, and if one brand of Authoritarian uses Uncle Joe as their Patriarch, one uses Allah as their Patriarch, and another uses the Pope... all of them are my enemy. All of them seek to control me, control my mind, control the way I think. Splinting things into a scoreboard about who has killed more people, Christians or atheists is simplistic, childish, and meaningless.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Bingo, bango, bongo,and they never will be, because that's not how it works. They just serve God, and no one knows either way. I was a bit befuddled by the gents on the strip shouting Jesus at the slow moving masses, and I wanted to say something, but what can I say? I mean, there is something to be said for timing, and since I was drunk it was not the time, but I lingered for awhile over the idea of challenging them to a duel right there in front of Planet Hollywood. I just couldn't bring myself to stoop to that level.

Watching a drunk LMD argue with a mentally ill man about true Christianity on the streets of Vegas would have been just about as high as the comedy scale can get for me.

[Balloon guy 158]

I attribute a lot of it to fear.....fear that the insane 10% will accuse them of not being (insert religion here) enough. It's just like a bully.....you have to stand up to them. (although not while in Vegas drunk on the strip.....i wouldnt waste my time.) And since they will never heed the words of an atheist.....it will have to come from within the religion itself to have an impact.and this is not something that you can do on a one on one level.....it is going to take a concerted effort by the mass of religious people to reject the falwells and ayatollahs and whoever else in a public and humiliating manner

Well as someone in the Chrisitan community, there is a lot of vocalness about false teachings and people who get more national news. Just because it doesn't reach the news shows more of what the news wants to focus on, not failure on our part to disown it. As someone who has personally mocked the same guys who carry the God hates fags signs to funerals, I can tell you that we are just not getting the press, because who wants to hear a story about a rarional Chrisitan when there are nut cases to lead with?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Well as someone in the Chrisitan community, there is a lot of vocalness about false teachings and people who get more national news. Just because it doesn't reach the news shows more of what the news wants to focus on, not failure on our part to disown it. As someone who has personally mocked the same guys who carry the God hates fags signs to funerals, I can tell you that we are just not getting the press, because who wants to hear a story about a polite Chrisitan when there are nut cases to lead with?

FYP

[vbnautilus 48]

There are too many other factors to consider to ever have a true measurement. So that allows me to pick my beliefs, and the other side to pick theirs. Then we throw rocks and pretend we are smarter for it.

Of course you have a right to choose your beliefs. However, as I see it what separates a religious perspective from non-religious perspective is the application of a method for determining what the objective truth of the matter, since throwing rocks is not a reliable way to arrive at the truth. That's the whole point of the scientific method. What I find inconsistent about many religious folk is how they seem to apply a reasonable standard of evidence for most normal everyday circumstances but then suspend it for certain other issues. For example, a Christian and I probably apply the same standard of evidence for deciding on whether there is an elephant currently in Times Square, but when it comes to determining whether the saltine in his mouth has transmogrified into a piece of the corpse of an ancient human, that same reason seems to go out the window.

[Balloon guy 158]

Again, you are the one trying to lump it into "my side" You have this strange black/ white, right/wrong right/left world view that everything is one side or the other. The idea that you lump the spectrum of various rejections of Biblical Christianity into one "movement" is funny. Christianity is anti reason, by the way. Faith is not rational. Believing that the Creator gave use guidelines to live by and following them is the best for you and others is not a rational belief system. It is a faith based one. And while I think your particular brand of faith is relatively harmless to me (though I think it's expression in politics is anti-scientific and destructive) and probably extremely helpful to you, it is not the case with all brands of faith. Like the faith of the radical muslim. Or the state sponsored faith in the Revolutionary party. For you, in your black and white world view, the salient issue is god. Maoist China was atheist, therefor evil, and their actions reflected that evil. I, whom reject the idea of god or an objective basis for good and Evil, don't view Maoist china as evil. I view it as irrational and destructive. I view it as the worst example of the use of Authority and power by a state. I find the way they brainwashed their citizens and restricted their information to be appalling. It's this state authority and power that I reject. I think authoritarianism is the enemy of freedom, and if one brand of Authoritarian uses Uncle Joe as their Patriarch, one uses Allah as their Patriarch, and another uses the Pope... all of them are my enemy. All of them seek to control me, control my mind, control the way I think. Splinting things into a scoreboard about who has killed more people, Christians or atheists is simplistic, childish, and meaningless.

Well if you want to have a purely rational debate where every nuance is explored we can just save time and both say: some people suck, some don't, both sides.But again I was defending the rhetoric filled "religious wars killed more people than any other war" falsehood, and turning the table by placing him on the defensive about labels being easy to maipulate.I am not making the case that atheist are evil, I am making the case that to apply religion as the label for what most wars are started for is equally consistant to saying that any war caused by communism gets placed on the steps of atheism.Of course the reality is that France wanted support from Rome over England and sending troops to the Holy Lands got them support, as some wars are land grabs and others are age old vindettas, all getting labels that are easier to remember than the real reason behind it.Hitler did use evolution to make his case to exterminate Jews, he also used the Bible, and he used the dire econmic straits the average german was in and compared it to the average Jew who was in better shape due to schooling and banking laws. He did all this to grab power, and now is a catch phrase for everyone to show why the other side is evil. Just tack on the label nazi.Well two can play this game, and if I am held to a higher standard, than what does that say about your side's position, needing debating advantages to compete? It's like affirmative action for the athiest.