Aces - 4 Bet On The Flop

[Money022 0]

Villian seems competent. HU king high flop and I'm out of position. I bet and get raised. I'm sitting there thinking I can't really call being out of position. Doing so leaves me hanging as far as where I stand in the hand. I decided to raise. It's not a solid raise but I figure the action alone should tell my opponent that I'm not just c-betting. I chose not to bet much more than I did so as not to commit myself to the pot should he push. What do you guys think?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)MP1 ($35.85)MP2 ($9.25)MP3 ($50)CO ($49.25)Button ($28)SB ($69.50)BB ($45.50)UTG ($87.15)Hero ($53.20)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , . 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, CO calls $2, 3 folds.Flop: ($4.75) , , (2 players)Hero bets $4, CO raises to $11, Hero raises to $22.5, CO raises to $47.25, Hero folds.Final Pot: $49.75No showdown. CO wins $49.75.

[Trillske 0]

I usually play 6-handed and not 9, but I still figure you should usually go broke there. Is he loose enough to call you in that PF spot with KJ? Well, then he can have anything, and then you really bet too small preflop in such a crowd anyway. If the game was really tight he might have JJ. Otherwise 77 is more likely (but still not really likely).How can you possibly rule out a hand like AK? From what I see thats pretty much the most likely hand you are up against, as that would make him very protective of that flop. It also makes sence preflop. And then you have the coinflip diamonds; AQs/AJs/QTs if he is creative enough. If you had a particulair read, fine, but otherwise I think folding was a misstake. You sacrificed half a buyin and might even have folded a dominating hand. Rule of thumb is really that if you have wasted half your stack and are still in a good position you simply go broke.

[AndyZ28 0]

I think I would've called his initial raise on the flop and see what comes on the turn and give him a chance to hang himself. Plus you don't blow half of your stack at the same time.

[Money022 0]

I think I would've called his initial raise on the flop and see what comes on the turn and give him a chance to hang himself. Plus you don't blow half of your stack at the same time.

Can't say I agree with this line. If I'm ahead here then I should be getting more money in. But the only thing I can beat here, if I'm ahead, is a big draw. AK/KQ certainly isn't playing it this way. Feels more like a made hand which connected to that flop. In addition to that, I'm going to hate any broadway card or diamond on the turn, making it very hard to continue with the hand. It seems you're basing your advice on the strength of an overpair and not paying attention to the strength of the villian's line.I'm fairly certain folding is correct, I'm just not sure if the reraise was correct, and if so, was the bet amount appropriate.

[AndyZ28 0]

Can't say I agree with this line. If I'm ahead here then I should be getting more money in. But the only thing I can beat here, if I'm ahead, is a big draw. AK/KQ certainly isn't playing it this way. Feels more like a made hand which connected to that flop. In addition to that, I'm going to hate any broadway card or diamond on the turn, making it very hard to continue with the hand. It seems you're basing your advice on the strength of an overpair and not paying attention to the strength of the villian's line.I'm fairly certain folding is correct, I'm just not sure if the reraise was correct, and if so, was the bet amount appropriate.

Ok, after reading this I agree with your move. I would have to actually see the action. It's hard for me to pick apart hands sometimes just reading about them. But, this is why I joined up here. I'm critiquing you and you're giving it back which is what I wanted out of this as well.

[omahahilo 0]

UTG you have alot of people to act behind you. I'm raising much more pre-flop.Otherwise ... yes, you're screwed here. I'm going broke after that flop.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

If you min-raise with plans to fold that's pretty bad IMO. You're better off flat calling. A call would "tell him you're not just c-betting" as well, and there's not much you could be trying to float on this flop besides A-Q. Your weak raise also pretty much told him you would fold to a 4-bet. There are 2 streets to go so if you had a big hand and were trying to extract value it's much more likely you would have called.If you're going to be aggressive and C-betting every flop OOP, you're going to get played back at more, which means you've got to make some tough calls, or you've just gotta shove these.

[Trillske 0]

Can't say I agree with this line. If I'm ahead here then I should be getting more money in. But the only thing I can beat here, if I'm ahead, is a big draw. AK/KQ certainly isn't playing it this way. Feels more like a made hand which connected to that flop. In addition to that, I'm going to hate any broadway card or diamond on the turn, making it very hard to continue with the hand. It seems you're basing your advice on the strength of an overpair and not paying attention to the strength of the villian's line.I'm fairly certain folding is correct, I'm just not sure if the reraise was correct, and if so, was the bet amount appropriate.

Problem is, here you´re talking like you have a great read on the villian and if thats the case its really only you that can decide wether or not the play was correct. Reading this like a random HH to me screams of a big leak; to commit half your stack on a decent flop for an overpair and then folding it with confidence when he comes over the top. I just cant see how that would be profitable in a cash game. I mean.. You bet, he raises, you reraise, he rererais and you fold. Even though you dont have a deep stack. Thats pretty much a standard line for a total bluff, not aces. If you decide to reraise in that spot; go with it.

[danc1984 0]

UTG you have alot of people to act behind you. I'm raising much more pre-flop.Otherwise ... yes, you're screwed here. I'm going broke after that flop.

Preflop is fine, he narrowed it to a HU pot, exactly what you want with AA.

[danc1984 0]

Problem is, here you´re talking like you have a great read on the villian and if thats the case its really only you that can decide wether or not the play was correct. Reading this like a random HH to me screams of a big leak; to commit half your stack on a decent flop for an overpair and then folding it with confidence when he comes over the top. I just cant see how that would be profitable in a cash game. I mean.. You bet, he raises, you reraise, he rererais and you fold. Even though you dont have a deep stack. Thats pretty much a standard line for a total bluff, not aces. If you decide to reraise in that spot; go with it.

Not too sure I would call this a decent flop for AA.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Hero ($53.20) Hero bets $4, CO raises to $11, Hero raises to $22.5, CO raises to $47.25, Hero folds.

I don't think you can put half your stack in and then fold. JMHO.

[danc1984 0]

I don't think you can put half your stack in and then fold. JMHO.

I agree with this. I think I have to stack off here getting 2:1 on the flop call and just hope he is making a move with a draw. I think it is probably KJ or 777 most of the time though, horrible horrible spot.Also, to those advocating just calling the raise this is terrible advice due to our position. What is your line for the turn if we call? This is definately push or fold IMO and I think we are getting too good a price to let it go.

[Trillske 0]

Not too sure I would call this a decent flop for AA.

I would, as its a flop where most low/mid players would bust with AK.

[throwemaway 0]

I would recommend reading Professional NL by Matt Flynn and some other 2+2 guys..They deal with tough situations like this a lot, and come up with this commitment threshold theory..I haven't gotten a chance to finish it yet but I think you would find it pretty useful for hands like thisAs for the hand, I'm just going broke here..I can imagine him making this move with a big draw or AK, and FWIW, I'm never making that 3 bet..ever..Shoving or folding after his raise

[NoBBiR 0]

After 3betting the flop, folding is bad. The pot odds just got too good, even if it was your own fault, you've pretty much priced yourself in. And since this doesn't have to be a set, you're getting the right price I would think.I think a realistic range is something like this (and this might even be a little lacking in what he could have):

Board: Ks Jd 7dDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	25.671%	  25.65% 	00.03% 			  4570 			4.50   { AcAh }Hand 1: 	74.329%	  74.30% 	00.03% 			 13241 			4.50   { JJ, 77, AdTd, KJs, QdTd, 9d8d, KJo }

I think getting 3:1, you should be stacking off here a lot.

[Zach6668 513]

Ya, board is too drawy to 3-bet/fold.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

After 3betting the flop, folding is bad. The pot odds just got too good, even if it was your own fault, you've pretty much priced yourself in. And since this doesn't have to be a set, you're getting the right price I would think.I think a realistic range is something like this (and this might even be a little lacking in what he could have):

Board: Ks Jd 7dDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	25.671%	  25.65% 	00.03% 			  4570 			4.50   { AcAh }Hand 1: 	74.329%	  74.30% 	00.03% 			 13241 			4.50   { JJ, 77, AdTd, KJs, QdTd, 9d8d, KJo }

I think getting 3:1, you should be stacking off here a lot.

Yeah... you can add in A-K and K-Q as well. That three bet was so soft those hands would push too.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Also, to those advocating just calling the raise this is terrible advice due to our position. What is your line for the turn if we call? This is definately push or fold IMO and I think we are getting too good a price to let it go.

Call and shove a brick.

[Money022 0]

Thanks for the breakdown guys. Guess it's a situation I'll have to work on.Here's another question. How many of you are shoving after he raises me on the flop? I know it's read dependent. From what I recall, he was a competent opponent.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Thanks for the breakdown guys. Guess it's a situation I'll have to work on.Here's another question. How many of you are shoving after he raises me on the flop? I know it's read dependent. From what I recall, he was a competent opponent.

I just came to this thread. I think it's definitely bad to minraise his reraise and then fold to his shove. He's pushing hands like QT, Kxdd, KQ, AK, 89dd, Q9dd and a TON of hands here. You can't put in that many chips and fold when it's so likely that he has a combo draw.I might just shove over his first raise. I don't like the idea of flat calling and deciding on the turn since you don't know what a safe turn is and what isn't. I say a lot here: we don't wait for safe cards in holdem, that's for PLO players.Just shove over his first raise or 3-bet/call, it doesn't matter. The line you took is pretty bad.

[Money022 0]

I just came to this thread. I think it's definitely bad to minraise his reraise and then fold to his shove. He's pushing hands like QT, Kxdd, KQ, AK, 89dd, Q9dd and a TON of hands here. You can't put in that many chips and fold when it's so likely that he has a combo draw.I might just shove over his first raise. I don't like the idea of flat calling and deciding on the turn since you don't know what a safe turn is and what isn't. I say a lot here: we don't wait for safe cards in holdem, that's for PLO players.Just shove over his first raise or 3-bet/call, it doesn't matter. The line you took is pretty bad.

Wound open, salt poured in. Man I suck.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Wound open, salt poured in. Man I suck.

Everyone makes mistakes. Don't do it again.

[Money022 0]

I would love to. But uh...I make no promises.

[shinzilla 0]

You know, my decision on the flop would actually depend a good amount on the villain's aggression factor. This is a situation where PT really comes in handy.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

After 3betting the flop, folding is bad. The pot odds just got too good, even if it was your own fault, you've pretty much priced yourself in. And since this doesn't have to be a set, you're getting the right price I would think.I think a realistic range is something like this (and this might even be a little lacking in what he could have):

Board: Ks Jd 7dDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	25.671%	  25.65% 	00.03% 			  4570 			4.50   { AcAh }Hand 1: 	74.329%	  74.30% 	00.03% 			 13241 			4.50   { JJ, 77, AdTd, KJs, QdTd, 9d8d, KJo }

I think getting 3:1, you should be stacking off here a lot.

I got almost the same thing. It's a call, but it's close. With reads this would be a lot easier.Board: Ks Jd 7dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 24.391% 24.37% 00.02% 4825 4.50 { AcAh }Hand 1: 75.609% 75.59% 00.02% 14966 4.50 { KK, JJ, 77, AdKd, KdQd, KJs, KdTd, Kc7c, Kh7h, Ks7s, QdTd, Jc7c, Jh7h, Js7s }