How Strict Should You Be On The Rules With A Fish?

[mdroc1 0]

Hi Guys,Just need a pit of a poll or opinion on a relatively simple matter.We had a real donkey at our table who was only just managing to keep up with the game. He was jamming all these pots with absolutely nothing so i sat and waited for a good hand. I caught my first good hand and I hit the flop and won the pot. About 15 minutes later, I was dealt Q-J. He raised before the flop after i limped. Another player reraised, I decided to gamble and called. Then the donkey picked up enough chips to put in the final raise and cap. He then seemed to have a moment of indecisiveness as he put the chips into the pot. He dropped two chips (which was a call) and then he quickly dribbled out another two chips and announced raise. The dealer didn't know what to do for a second and then said "ok - raise." Then I immediately stopped the dealer and said "I'm sorry my dear, but that's a string bet." The dealer quickly agreed and said "yes - it really was a string bet." She then handed him back his two chips and said "sorry sir, that'll have to be a call and if you want to raise, you have to put all the chips out in one motion or announce raise." To cut a long story short, i caught a pair of jacks on the flop, which was the highest pair, and after he raised my bet on the flop and the other player folded, I decided to simply call him down. On the river, he showed 6-6 and I showed him the winning hand. He immediately stood up and said "I think that you're a...." well let's just say that he told me what he thought of me in no uncertain terms!. He then packed up his chips and stormed off, but due to his harsh language, the dealer was not going allowing him to sit back down anyway.While I had scored a couple of good pots, I couldn't help but think that I may have turned a beginner and a donkey off the game, which not only affects me, but also affects my fellow players (though no one ever expressed disappointment to me over the incident). But then again, if the rule is there, why should you get special treatment if you're a beginner? Since anyone else at the table would pull me up if i did the same thing, why shouldn't i insist on it being applied to him, even though he probably didn't know it was a rule?What do you all think? Should I let a beginner's mistake slide like that or should I rigidly enforce the rules that apply to me and everyone else at the table? P.S. This donkey thought that I would have folded if he was allowed to cap it preflop, which of course is wrong. In fact, in doing all that, I saved him a bet. But that's beside the point I suppose.Your thoughts?

[antistuff 0]

my thoughts...

I think you're an *******

[Czech Razor 0]

You did the right thing. Rules are in place for a good reason and he'd have to learn them eventually if he was planning on playing a lot of poker. He was wrong to get mad over the rules being enforced.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Hi Guys,Just need a pit of a poll or opinion on a relatively simple matter.We had a real donkey at our table who was only just managing to keep up with the game. He was jamming all these pots with absolutely nothing so i sat and waited for a good hand. I caught my first good hand and I hit the flop and won the pot. About 15 minutes later, I was dealt Q-J. He raised before the flop after i limped. Another player reraised, I decided to gamble and called. Then the donkey picked up enough chips to put in the final raise and cap. He then seemed to have a moment of indecisiveness as he put the chips into the pot. He dropped two chips (which was a call) and then he quickly dribbled out another two chips and announced raise. The dealer didn't know what to do for a second and then said "ok - raise." Then I immediately stopped the dealer and said "I'm sorry my dear, but that's a string bet." The dealer quickly agreed and said "yes - it really was a string bet." She then handed him back his two chips and said "sorry sir, that'll have to be a call and if you want to raise, you have to put all the chips out in one motion or announce raise." To cut a long story short, i caught a pair of jacks on the flop, which was the highest pair, and after he raised my bet on the flop and the other player folded, I decided to simply call him down. On the river, he showed 6-6 and I showed him the winning hand. He immediately stood up and said "I think that you're a...." well let's just say that he told me what he thought of me in no uncertain terms!. He then packed up his chips and stormed off, but due to his harsh language, the dealer was not going allowing him to sit back down anyway.While I had scored a couple of good pots, I couldn't help but think that I may have turned a beginner and a donkey off the game, which not only affects me, but also affects my fellow players (though no one ever expressed disappointment to me over the incident). But then again, if the rule is there, why should you get special treatment if you're a beginner? Since anyone else at the table would pull me up if i did the same thing, why shouldn't i insist on it being applied to him, even though he probably didn't know it was a rule?What do you all think? Should I let a beginner's mistake slide like that or should I rigidly enforce the rules that apply to me and everyone else at the table? P.S. This donkey thought that I would have folded if he was allowed to cap it preflop, which of course is wrong. In fact, in doing all that, I saved him a bet. But that's beside the point I suppose.Your thoughts?

first off, you should not have said a thing to him. You couldn't have known that he was going to leave, but you shouldn't have said anything. Why on earth would you want him to not keep raising pots with a weak hand. don't be so close minded about rules.. you should have done everything you could have to keep him there. Playing boy scout and rules monger with a guy willing to cap with anything is really just stupid. If you weren't willing to play a capped flop with AJ when you limped early position with qj, you shouldn't have limped with itI also think you're leaving out some of the story here, because him getting mad about just calling the rule on him seems wierd.Also, you played your hand really poorly First off, ify ou're going to play the hand, and he's to your left, you should have raised, and hoped he re-raised to get the pot heads up against the maniac. Limping into a maniac, unless you plan on check raising, is a really bad play imo. Second, If he's raising and re raising every pot, every hand AND if he was mad at your, so more likely to argo donk, AND you're heads up with him with top pair, you should have been capping the flop and turn with him. Just calling a crazy agro donk down with top pair is a really -ev play, since he will put in many raises and re raises with weak hands. Yes, do you run the risk of giving him alot of action when his ahead? Yes. But there are so many more hands he could have that are behind your hand than ahead, check calling him is just dumb.

[psujohn 0]

1) The dealer should be enforcing the rules and not the players2) With an obviously inexperienced player the best thing the dealer can do is enforce the rule and explain it at the same time3) The way you described it, it wasn't a string bet anyway. If he carried all the chips forward and dropped them in two steps it's a legit raise. He's just not allowed to move forward and then go back for more4) "Don't tap the glass". Congrats on seeing that the rules were enforced and costing yourself and everyone else at the table money.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You did the right thing. Rules are in place for a good reason and he'd have to learn them eventually if he was planning on playing a lot of poker. He was wrong to get mad over the rules being enforced.

yes, rules are rules.. but nothing says you have to call a string raise on a fish on this. You can chose to say nothing.. it is your choice. For an example, I was playing in a 10-20 game at the muckleshoot ( which was the biggest game there at the time) and this chinese guy sat down. He had literally no idea how to play, and spoke no english. He had a female translator with him. How, it's a "Rule" that you can only speak english at the table. But everyone at the table waived this rule because he was such an insane fish ( he would bet 100 percent of teh time if checked to him, and raise if you bet into him about 85 percent of the time) and played every hand. No one cared about the english only rule, because he was such a huge fish, and we didn't want to chase him off. Some times you have to look the other way on "rules" for your own greater benefit. There are meta-game considerations that are sometimes more important that playing hall monitor.

[Whalers2005 0]

Calling it all the way down?? Haven't you learned...if you're not going to raise fold!

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

1) The dealer should be enforcing the rules and not the players2) With an obviously inexperienced player the best thing the dealer can do is enforce the rule and explain it at the same time3) The way you described it, it wasn't a string bet anyway. If he carried all the chips forward and dropped them in two steps it's a legit raise. He's just not allowed to move forward and then go back for more4) "Don't tap the glass". Congrats on seeing that the rules were enforced and costing yourself and everyone else at the table money.

Absolutely true.. if the dealer called a string raise, I have no problem with it.. it's the dealer's job to make sure the rules are enforced. However, it's a player's job to win as much money as they can. SOmetimes this means calling a string raise, and sometimes it means ignoring it.

[Czech Razor 0]

yes, rules are rules.. but nothing says you have to call a string raise on a fish on this. You can chose to say nothing.. it is your choice. For an example, I was playing in a 10-20 game at the muckleshoot ( which was the biggest game there at the time) and this chinese guy sat down. He had literally no idea how to play, and spoke no english. He had a female translator with him. How, it's a "Rule" that you can only speak english at the table. But everyone at the table waived this rule because he was such an insane fish ( he would bet 100 percent of teh time if checked to him, and raise if you bet into him about 85 percent of the time) and played every hand. No one cared about the english only rule, because he was such a huge fish, and we didn't want to chase him off. Some times you have to look the other way on "rules" for your own greater benefit. There are meta-game considerations that are sometimes more important that playing hall monitor.

Good point. I didn't consider that aspect when reading the OP, though I'd have probably taken it into consideration if I was at the table.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

One last thing.. I highly question if this is the only thing you did to piss this guy off. If you're the type of guy to call a string raise on a complete noob agrodonk, you're also probably the type of guy to talk derisively about his play, making fun of his hand selection, commenting about how long it takes for him to act, btching about pot odds and the odds he had to call. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt calling a string raise is the only thing you did to chase this dude off. Remember, the best sauce for a fish is butter, always butter them up.

[antistuff 0]

You did the right thing. Rules are in place for a good reason and he'd have to learn them eventually if he was planning on playing a lot of poker. He was wrong to get mad over the rules being enforced.

absolutely not. and its not even close.

[mln_falcon 0]

This situation in rediculously easy. Call the string raise this time but explain what it is and explain that it shouldn't be done again or it will only be a call. Give them a chance to learn the rules.

[fighter 4]

Rules are in place to make sure that players dont get an unfair advantage. If he was looking at you and saw that you liked the fact he seemed to just call and then raised then you should call a string bet. As it is you just enforced a rule because it was there.When it comes to rules enforcement If their is no malice and no major advantage gained dont enforce it. Enlighten them to the fact a rule exists and that some pricks will enforce them for no real reason. Congratulations on losing the biggest fish on the table and costing yourself a bet.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Rules are in place to make sure that players dont get an unfair advantage. If he was looking at you and saw that you liked the fact he seemed to just call and then raised then you should call a string bet. As it is you just enforced a rule because it was there.When it comes to rules enforcement If their is no malice and no major advantage gained dont enforce it. Enlighten them to the fact a rule exists and that some pricks will enforce them for no real reason. Congratulations on losing the biggest fish on the table and costing yourself a bet.

try 4-5 big bets.. did you read the way he played the hand?

[fighter 4]

try 4-5 big bets.. did you read the way he played the hand?

I like to think the "fish" left the table phil hellmuth style berating the way you played that hand.

[Actuary 3]

"I'm sorry my dear,

Are you 74 yrs old?**********************8and lol at BigDMcGee making this about how to play the handwelcome to FCP!

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Are you 74 yrs old?**********************8and lol at BigDMcGee making this about how to play the handwelcome to FCP!

I try... he played it terrible, I couldn't help myself. People focus on the wrong things too much IMO

[DWMREP 0]

Most dealers won't call a string raise, it's up to the player(s) in the hand. I wouldn't call it if I wasn't in the pot, and if I was in the pot, I would only call string if I minded his raise. Usually players who string raise are beginners and not angle-shooting, so a raise means strength most of the time. When drawing dead and/or not intending to call, let it go, but if you want to see the next card cheaply, I don't see a problem calling string.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Fish sticks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Most dealers won't call a string raise, it's up to the player(s) in the hand. I wouldn't call it if I wasn't in the pot, and if I was in the pot, I would only call string if I minded his raise. Usually players who string raise are beginners and not angle-shooting, so a raise means strength most of the time. When drawing dead and/or not intending to call, let it go, but if you want to see the next card cheaply, I don't see a problem calling string.

there's no "problem" with calling it, there's just A) meta-game considerations with not tapping the tank and B) he should have welcome the fish putting more money in with a potentially weak hand and a willingness to lose lots of extra money with it on later streets. like I said before, if he didn't want to call a potentially capped pot with qj, he shouldn't have limped with it.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Your thoughts?

Relax. You've already spent more time on this than it's worth.

[DCJ001 0]

If you let it go, and tell him after the hand is over, he won't learn and he'll do it again. Dealers are supposed to manage the table by the rules. If the dealer doesn't enforce the rules to ensure the integrity of the game, it's best for a player to do it and the rookie probably won't make the same mistake again.

[Young Turk 0]

Bad, bad move...it's a minor infringement of betting procedure in a Limit format. Such pedantry might have been understandable in NL (where his string bet might have priced you out the pot), but you were already committed.I think the reason you tried to stop him capping was that you realised how foolish your QJ limp had been and wanted to limit your losses in a -EV situation. Your QJ limp and your subsequent reaction to his string-bet were done on whim...often we wish we had thought out our actions in retrospect. I guess you should just take it as a lesson not to repeat this in future. Many rules involved in poker etiquette are done to stop cunning players 'shooting angles' - most of these rules can be disregarded with fish since they're mostly just doing it out of ignorance...if I told every drunk I played with not to splash the pot, I'd be considerably poorer.In future, you might want to address the player himself in a friendly manner and explain that while you're lax about it, others might not be and recommend he adjust how he comports himself; the emphasis is on being friendly - make it seem like you're advising him rather than correcting him.

[Outlaw_IA 0]

4) "Don't tap the glass". Congrats on seeing that the rules were enforced and costing yourself and everyone else at the table money.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and what was this 3/6 ? and you are worried about a string bet?

[myenemy 0]

Bad, bad move...it's a minor infringement of betting procedure in a Limit format. Such pedantry might have been understandable in NL (where his string bet might have priced you out the pot), but you were already committed.

I agree that in limit this is less of an issue than in NL. I dont know about pedantry.Barring anything else you may have done to run this guy off, I think its perfectly okay to enforce rules even on a fish. If that caused this guy to leave like that, then he didnt really want to be there anyway. You didnt do anything he wasnt going to do anyway, thats is leave. And since everyone loves euphimisms: There are tons of fish in the sea. Last week some fish at a NL table walked away and tried to pick $700 and leave about $200, thats fine when you go for a walk, but then he came back and tried playing only the $200. I called him out immediately and he looked at me as if I was complete pr*ck. I realize that rule is a bit more important but still, he had no idea of it. My point is they have to learn sometime. Amazingly, the dealer wasnt going to say anything (though a dealer might not notice such a thing) and neither was anyone else.