$5/$10 is easier to beat than $0.50/$1.00!

[BetItAll33 0]

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you  eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q.  So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same  suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

Since you clearly have NO comprehension of the math involved, just take the advice of the wiser people on this forum. Don't fold top pair with a Jack high flush draw in a multiway pot. Just don't.(Worst. Math. Ever.)

[gar 0]

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you  eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q.  So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same  suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

Since you clearly have NO comprehension of the math involved, just take the advice of the wiser people on this forum. Don't fold top pair with a Jack high flush draw in a multiway pot. Just don't.(Worst. Math. Ever.)

The key term is multiway pot. I wouldn't fold that hand heads up but multiway pot with that betting action, it isn't a bet, call, call, call scenario, it's bet call raise call, call,call on the flop then bet raise call,call on the turn. Why don't you guys advance to the second level and start putting your opponents on hands. Take your own advice and listen to somebody wiser.

[spinnuh 0]

i just love people who say that people who make the right call are stupid for making the call haha... you dont know what was happening at the table or what the players are like so you dont know what is and what isnt a good call

[BlazeMoCron 0]

The only argument you can make for chasing that was implied odds, not pot odds. Also, the board is paired so a potential full house might even nullify your draw. Although it proved to be the best hand this time, I do not recommend playing this hand in in a 5/10 NL game. You'll be broke before you hit a hand...and even if you do hit when you play like this, your draw (which wouldn't have in this case either) won't be good. Get some common poker sense before saying it was a good call to chase this down. You should always be putting your money in with the best hands unless your odds (implied/pot) are justifiable. It's not tight, it's smart.

[TheMathProf 0]

Here's an example of something similar, let me throw it out here to add to the discussion.I was playing 2/4 at Bally's Saturday night, and in the SB on my third or fourth hand, I pick up :spadesj: :spades10: . There are four limpers to me, I complete, and the BB checks. (I know some folks would raise here, but it just wasn't my style, especially when I'm getting to know a brand new table.)Flop: :spades2: :clubs7: :spades4: Still don't know this table (maybe some monkey plays seven-deuce?), so I check my Jack-high flush draw and it checks around.Turn: :clubs10: OK, so now I've got the flush draw to go with top pair, pretty good kicker, so I bet the turn. The BB calls, and one of the guys near MP calls, while the other three fold.River: :spadesk: I've hit my flush (the third nut flush) and I bet out and get raised by the BB. MP folds. I just call.After the hand, after BB saw what I had, he told me that he would have re-raised in general with the third-nut flush.What do you think? (I'll tell you what BB had later on.)

[BigMike 0]

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you  eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q.  So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same  suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

Since you clearly have NO comprehension of the math involved, just take the advice of the wiser people on this forum. Don't fold top pair with a Jack high flush draw in a multiway pot. Just don't.(Worst. Math. Ever.)

The key term is multiway pot. I wouldn't fold that hand heads up but multiway pot with that betting action, it isn't a bet, call, call, call scenario, it's bet call raise call, call,call on the flop then bet raise call,call on the turn. Why don't you guys advance to the second level and start putting your opponents on hands. Take your own advice and listen to somebody wiser.

Yes, the key term IS multiway pot. But you have it completely backwards. Because the pot is very multiway, it is simply too large to fold. Calling to the river could potentially cost him a few big bets, but folding would definitely cost him a 30 big bet pot. Even if a player showed him a nine after the turn, he still would call one bet to see the river. You have said you play what, 20/40 at times? If so perhaps you have never played in an 8 way raised pot preflop. If you ever do, and happen to get top pair with a flush draw, play it exactly as the OP did.

[MikeR 0]

Best hand of the night:  J10 of spades takes down a $300 pot with a board of 10 9 5 9 2 (2 spades on the flop, nothing on the turn or river).  There was betting and raising to the right and left of me, respectively, which kept me priced in the pot with TPPK and the spade draw.  Unbeknownst to me, another limper had the Ax of spades!  Lucky for me, it didn't hit.  The bettor had 10 8 and the raiser had Q-5 (trying to represent a nine?  If the pot wasn't so big, the bluff might have worked.  Maybe he thought 3rd pair was good).  I was genuinely surprised to pull that pot in.  I made a crying call after missing the flush on the river, getting something insane like 29-1 on the call.  I'd rather be lucky than good.

If you folded on the river Sklansky and Malmuth would have broken into your home and took turns urinating on your mother.

[GT123 0]

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible . So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

seriously, your math is so bad that I'm feeling embarrassed for you. :oops: The odds of someone being dealt a higher flush is roughly 14%.using this

A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q

doesn't make sense.if this were true how come you didn't include K/2, K/3, K/4, Q/2,Q/3...etc into your calculations? Based on your calcualtions, almost everytime I don't have a ace high flush draw, someone must certainly be on a higher one way too often.Just admit your wrong already, everyone has an EGO but there is no shame in being wrong. We are on this forum to learn. You should learn something new from this thread. The people that posted in this thread arn't just making these numbers and theories up. We have read them in books written by ed miller, David Slansky, Mason Malmuth. I'm pretty sure these authors know more about poker theory and POKER in general than you do. I challenge you to find any book out there from any authors on Limit Hold'em that recommend folding in the hand from the original poster. I'm pretty sure you will not find one unless you decide to write a book on poker. Seriously, these concepts on flush draws are beginner concepts, If you don't know them, you should seriously consider re-evaluting your game.

[pyedog 0]

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q. So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

Since you clearly have NO comprehension of the math involved, just take the advice of the wiser people on this forum. Don't fold top pair with a Jack high flush draw in a multiway pot. Just don't.(Worst. Math. Ever.)

The key term is multiway pot. I wouldn't fold that hand heads up but multiway pot with that betting action, it isn't a bet, call, call, call scenario, it's bet call raise call, call,call on the flop then bet raise call,call on the turn. Why don't you guys advance to the second level and start putting your opponents on hands. Take your own advice and listen to somebody wiser.

Wow, you are unbelievably arrogant and moronic. I am now starting to understand how even higher limit poker can be profitable with the sort of weak-tight scared play that you are advocating. To suggest folding top pair and a flush draw on the flop in a huge pot is outrageous. And to actually be adamant about it?Anyways, you obviously should not be playing J-T suited ever since this is the dream flop for that hand. But the rest of us will keep playing it in the right situations and making money off these very types of hands.There's 8 morons betting and calling! Obviously their hand ranges can be narrowed down to two cards each.

[Koroshiya 0]

The odds of someone being dealt a higher flush is roughly 14%.

Odds are not expressed as a percentage. If you are right and the probablility is 14%, then that event should occur at an average frequency of 1 of 7.25 times, or the odds would be 6:1 (1:6 depending on who you are rooting for).Someone with a better head for probability and statistics, please correct if I am wrong.K :roll:

[gar 0]

We have read them in books written by ed miller, David Slansky, Mason Malmuth. I'm pretty sure these authors know more about poker theory and POKER in general than you do. I challenge you to find any book out there from any authors on Limit Hold'em that recommend folding in the hand from the original poster. I'm pretty sure you will not find one unless you decide to write a book on poker. Seriously, these concepts on flush draws are beginner concepts, If you don't know them, you should seriously consider re-evaluting your game.IN SKLANSKY'S THEORY OF POKER page 44 (Drawing to the Second Best Hand) "Equally important in determining whether a hand that needs improvement is worth a call is the question of whether the hand will win even if you do make it. Your hand might lose in a variety of ways. It can happen because you are drawing dead--that is, the hand you are looking to make is already beaten by your opponent. ..It can also happen that you make your hand and your opponent makes an even better hand though you weren't drawing dead. Your four flush might, for example, be up against three of a kind. You make your flush, but your opponent may very well make a full house. In such situations you MUST REDUCE YOUR ODDS OF WINNING (my emphasis) and sometimes throw your hand away....The ability to fold correctly when you suspect you are drawing dead or drawing with too little chance of ending up with the best hand is one attribute that distinguishes a good player from an average one. On the other hand, poor players are likely to call thoughtlessly on the come no matter what. They do not consider that they may be drawing dead; and when they're not drawing dead, they do not adjust their chances of ending up with the best hand, taking into account the possibility of an opponent's making a bigger hand than their own."I understand the concept of flush draw concept--I'm adding hand reading and betting patterns to reduce the number of outs that you should use as Sklansky suggests in the passage quoted above.

[gar 0]

"if this were true how come you didn't include K/2, K/3, K/4, Q/2,Q/3...etc into your calculations? Based on your calcualtions, almost everytime I don't have a ace high flush draw, someone must certainly be on a higher one way too often."K/2, K/3 etc are garbage hands just like 2/7. I just didnt want to list them all. I was trying to refute the statement that there was a higher flush draw 1/6 of the time.So my premise was, assuming there is another flush draw among the other opponents, what percentage of playable starting hands were drawing to a higher flush. My criteria for playable hand was limited to starting hands that were less than 3 gapped and any card with the Ace. Using that criteria. I came up with 7 playable hands which were beat by a Jack high flush and 9 of the playable starting hands were higher than a Jack high flush. So instead of the 1/6 figure, I suggest that the probability of somebody having a higher flush draw is 9/16.Let's forget about which hands are playable and use all combinations. By my calculations that are 17 starting hand combinations that are beat by a Jack high flush and 21 combinations that beat a Jack high flush. So the probability of a somebody having higher flush draw is 21/38.. Both figures pretty much the same--about 55 percent of the time somebody is drawing to ahigher flush. I am making one assumption--that is, somebody else is on a flush draw, but with 8 opponents I think it's reasonable to assume somebody else is on a flush draw. Is this a more realistic way of figuring out what percentage of hands beat a Jack high flush?

[GT123 0]

(Small Stakes Hold'em Ed miller David Slansky Mason Malmuth Pg.149 .)"Continuing when you might be drawing deadIn large pots you should often continue even if your winning chances appear grim. Poker folklore holds that drawing dead is a terrible mistake. As a result, many authors suggest that you fold straight and flush draws if the board pairs. Some even suggest that you fold straight draws if the board contains a two-flush. While this advice is generally incorrect in most situations, it is truly dreadful when the pot is large.When you fold a live draw, you forfeit a percentage of the pot that corresponds to the likelihood of making your draw ( and winning). If the pot pot holds 12 bets, and you will make your draw and win30 percent of the time, by folding, you forfeit a share of the pot worth almost three bets. If you call, drawing dead, you forfeit one bet. Hence, drawing dead is usually not as expensive as folding a live draw. Consequently, if the pot is big, you should be relatively certain that you are drawing dead before you fold. Observing strong betting alone is not enough evidence. If the board is paired, a player betting strongly is more likely to have trips than a fullhouse. You need additional, specific evidence of a fullhouse to fold. Without such evidence, folding a flush draw in a large pot just because the board has paired is a big mistake."I know it mentions it in theory of poker, but how sure can you be that you are drawing dead just because of the betting patterns? SSHE is meant for loose game conditions against poor players. In TOP section on drawing dead I assume they are not adjusting the play to game conditions. Also, in the original poster hand, he also has top pair, if a ten comes on the river he has a fullhouse, he may have the best hand, plus he has a flush draw and a fullhouse draw.

[gar 0]

(Small Stakes Hold'em Ed miller David Slansky Mason Malmuth Pg.149 .)"Continuing when you might be drawing deadIn large pots you should often continue even if your winning chances appear grim. Poker folklore holds that drawing dead is a terrible mistake. As a result, many authors suggest that you fold straight and flush draws if the board pairs. Some even suggest that you fold straight draws if the board contains a two-flush. While this advice is generally incorrect in most situations, it is truly dreadful when the pot is large.When you fold a live draw, you forfeit a percentage of the pot that corresponds to the likelihood of making your draw ( and winning). If the pot pot holds 12 bets, and you will make your draw and win30 percent of the time, by folding, you forfeit a share of the pot worth almost three bets. If you call, drawing dead, you forfeit one bet. Hence, drawing dead is usually not as expensive as folding a live draw. Consequently, if the pot is big, you should be relatively certain that you are drawing dead before you fold. Observing strong betting alone is not enough evidence. If the board is paired, a player betting strongly is more likely to have trips than a fullhouse. You need additional, specific evidence of a fullhouse to fold. Without such evidence, folding a flush draw in a large pot just because the board has paired is a big mistake."I know it mentions it in theory of poker, but how sure can you be that you are drawing dead just because of the betting patterns? SSHE is meant for loose game conditions against poor players. In TOP section on drawing dead I assume they are not adjusting the play to game conditions. Also, in the original poster hand, he also has top pair, if a ten comes on the river he has a fullhouse, he may have the best hand, plus he has a flush draw and a fullhouse draw.

If a ten comes on the flop he could have a full house but if anybody else has a 10, you split the pot. Once in a blue moon, somebody might have pocket 9s for quads. You never really know if you are drawing dead unless you can see your opponents cards. You try to piece together a range of hands your opponents might have by their bets and the board.The flop was 10 9 5 with 2 spades. When my opponents cold call 2 bets on the flop I put them either on the following hands a) a flush draw B) straight draw 7/8 J/Q for up and down, maybe QK for gutshot c) two pair--somebody holding 9/10, I rule out 5/9 d) pocket 5s--for a set e) a higher pocket pair Once the turn pairs the board, c and d are huge. This is where the possibility of drawing dead enters the discussion. When they say " folding a flush draw in a large pot just because the board has paired is a big mistake." That's probably true more often than not but it makes the assumption that you are holding the winning flush draw. You obviously wouldn't call knowing there was a higher flush draw ,so you have to weigh the possibility of hands with a higher flush draw. It all depends on what you consider a live draw.

[GT123 0]

When you fold a live draw, you forfeit a percentage of the pot that corresponds to the likelihood of making your draw ( and winning). If the pot pot holds 12 bets, and you will make your draw and win30 percent of the time, by folding, you forfeit a share of the pot worth almost three bets. If you call, drawing dead, you forfeit one bet. Hence, drawing dead is usually not as expensive as folding a live draw.

This is my main point, sure there is a chance a higher flush draw out there, it is also possible someone is on a smaller flush draw, in loose agressive games with bad players you can't possibly put them on any hands just because they cold called on the flop. They can be calling with Ace high, I have seen it. Show me where it says that you should be worried about a higher flush draw because I don't see it.Saving bets is not the way to win consistently, you are risking a few bets to win a big pot, if you win it's the whole pot, if you lose it's a few bets. Lets just agree that if you are playing at a table against good players where you can put them on a range of hands then you are correct, and if you are playing against bad players then I am correct. Sound good?

[badjefft 0]

As someone who has played limit at Commerce and the bike for many years, I have to agree to the poster a few posts up. If you play 3-6 or 4-8 they do not fold, they chase. Aces and kings are rarely good. Suited connectors are the best. If you can adjust, good, but if you are better at tighter tables I recommend 6-12 or 20-40. 40-80 is just the rich mans 4-8 and 9-18 in the past is frequently capped preflop. I wish you luck in your endeavour. However, if this doesn't sound like your cup of tea, do what I did .... quit limit all together. No limit is the way to go.

[Koroshiya 0]

...do what I did .... quit limit all together. No limit is the way to go.

I have just started playing at Bicycle and Commerce and I can make money at the $2 and $3 Limit tables. I don't feel I have the depth of instinct and the bankroll yet to play primarily NL.Your advice is right-on for a seasoned player with good skills and emotional control, but for an average or beginning player limit is probably better because you can make a few mistakes and bounce back. One misstep in NL and you are out of the game.At those casinos, how would you rate the field in the NL games?Koroshiya :roll:

[oreogod 0]

...do what I did .... quit limit all together. No limit is the way to go.

Not against a good player it isnt. Sure there are swings either way, maybe more so in limit but I find them to be of less consequence. In the end a good limit player will make a ton of money. I find it more of a challenge than NL...

You state that there is only a 1/6 chance of a higher flush out there. If you  eliminate the garbage suited hands 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 3/7, 3/8, 4/7, 4/8. That leaves 7 lower flush draws 2/3, 2/4, 3/4, 3/6, 6/7, 7/8--2 of these are straight flush draws. There are 9 higher draws possible .  So the chances of a higher flush draw are 9/16. Granted somebody else will have hole cards the same  suit as yours 27% of the time preflop but with 8 callers preflop and 4 callers for 2 bets on the flop and river indicates at least one of them is on a flush draw. They all cant be calling with small pocket pairs, or straight draws.

seriously, your math is so bad that I'm feeling embarrassed for you. :oops: The odds of someone being dealt a higher flush is roughly 14%.using this

A/2. A/3, A/4, A/6, A/7, A/8, A/Q, A/K, K/Q

doesn't make sense.if this were true how come you didn't include K/2, K/3, K/4, Q/2,Q/3...etc into your calculations? Based on your calcualtions, almost everytime I don't have a ace high flush draw, someone must certainly be on a higher one way too often.Just admit your wrong already, everyone has an EGO but there is no shame in being wrong. We are on this forum to learn. You should learn something new from this thread. The people that posted in this thread arn't just making these numbers and theories up. We have read them in books written by ed miller, David Slansky, Mason Malmuth. I'm pretty sure these authors know more about poker theory and POKER in general than you do. I challenge you to find any book out there from any authors on Limit Hold'em that recommend folding in the hand from the original poster. I'm pretty sure you will not find one unless you decide to write a book on poker. Seriously, these concepts on flush draws are beginner concepts, If you don't know them, you should seriously consider re-evaluting your game.

Oui.Yeah I knew there was a reason I didnt come back and pick up the baton. Gar your math sucks. Its true, if u fold this at any point Mason and Sklansky will break into your house and gang rape u with penile shaped card protectors. The chance of someone else having a flush is 14 percent, or about 6:1. You might have missed it, but Caro's statistics did come out in the 70s. I watch in amusement for further arguments. All I can say is SNAP!! GTs smack down performance is one of beauty.PS to the guy that posted that hand, u should 3-bet that river. U make the hand u wanted to what, only call the raise??

[Briguy 0]

Actually, the hand I wanted was the flush (which, ironically, would've lost). I thought trip 9's were going to take the hand. I realize that I played it weak on the river (making a couple of crying calls), but with two people betting and raising for me, I'm happy with the result, if not my overall play on each street. ;)Really, how often does someone expect TPGK to take that pot down? 10% of the time, maybe? I was lucky to be against someone who thought they could bluff a monster pot in limit, and someone else who was playing absolute crap the whole way (TPworseunsuitedK).In other news: Holy old thread, Batman! Let it die, I say. I can barely remember that hand now.