Rng's Vs The Dealer Shuffle

[TR1N1TY 0]

I was getting a little burnt out sitting in my computer cave getting 2 outted on Pokertards, so I thought I'd head down to the local casino to play a little live NLHE for a change. More out of total frustration than anything. Its bad enough holing yourself up staring at your monitor all day, but when the bad beats are flowing like a river its time to get the hell out of Dodge for a change of scenery.So I bail work a couple hours early and head down to the casino and put my name on the list for the 2/2 game $200 max buy in. The only no limit game running so it took a while to get a seat. When I finally sat down with my chips, it was like a huge weight instantly lifted off my shoulders. Ahhh thats sooo much better. Sitting at the table with real people, holding real cards and pushing real chips into the pot. What a huge difference. I settled right in and immediately started cleaning up within the first hour, and the funniest thing happened. There were no bad beats. There were no miracle runner runner flushes and I didn't get outdrawn a single time. My continuation bets were successful 80% of the time, and the players (for the most part) actually respected raises and didn't chase down pots with backdoor draws or calling down with an underpair chasing the 2 outter all the way to the river. I gradually worked my stack up to just under $1000 in a matter of 6 hours and kept playing all night long. All told the entire session lasted until the next morning at about 10:00 AM where I finally cashed out close to 2 grand and went home to collapse. (taking the day off from work obv)Now my point is this....I've played a ton of poker...live and online. I asked Stars to email me my 'total' hands played since becoming a member and it was over 800,000 hands. Combine that with over 2 years playing at Paradise, and the hundreds upon hundreds of hours logged at the cardrooms in Vegas and L.A. and I'm sure its over 1.5 million hands seen. Now thats not a bad sample size I think you'll agree.In that entire 18 hour session I played the other day, the wildest hand I saw was KK vs AA all in pre flop. I think there might have been a counterfeited pocket pair and maybe one set over set. But oddly missing was the all too familiar J/J in early position...QQ in mid position....AA in late position....and A/x suited all in pre flop with A/x suited four flushing the pot. Or the classic overpair vs underpair with the 2 outter on the river. I didn't see any massive miracle suckouts in 3 way pots and not once did I even see a board like 7/8/9/10/J with KQ sucking out on AA. You know the drill anybody on Stars has seen it a million times so I won't even go there.OK so after the entire night playing live and a good nights sleep the next day, I decided to take a couple hundred and put it on Stars to play last night and today..LOL what a joke I swear to God. I played just as solid as I always do and if I posted all the insane hands Ive seen in just the last few hours you would never believe it. Just now I was sitting in a 1/2 NL game with about 75 bucks and I catch A/A utg..I jam it up to 10 bucks and get 4 callers...lmao So the flop is Q/x/x rainbow no draws I check and this clown leads out for 1/2 his stack and I just put him all in after the other 2 fold....The guy goes runner runner spade flush with 5/9s lol wtf OK fine thats a fluke....I'll go play the $55.00 (25K guaranteed)...a few hands in I catch K/K on the button. There is a huge early position raise to like 500 chips at 10/20 blinds the guy obv wants action so I come over the top all in.....whoahhh small blind calls....big blind calls....original raiser calls....4 way all in. sb has A/A, bb has 10/10...original raiser has 7/7 and I have my K/K.....flop is 7/7/A....turn K...river A lmao yea riiiiiiiiiight. So I'm just laughing to be honest I was still happy from my session at the casino. I go sit in another 1/2 game with another hundred and the very first hand I catch 3/3 and flop quads...LOL Small pot but it was just hilarious to me....so I 'hit and run' that table and go sit in a $27.00 (45) man turbo and the very first hand I catch J/J...lol So I jam it up 5X and bam....some dude goes all in.....then another caller...then another one...LOL So I am just crackin up literally laughing my a$$ off (this is all in a span of about 15 minutes by the way) and I think 'screw it' and call just for fun with my Jacks even though I'm pretty sure I'm behind. The cards turn and its K/K, A/A and 7/7 and BAM I flop quads....LOL I mean get real.I could go on and on about all the crazy beats and miracle suckouts I see on Stars...Its gotten to the point where I expect them now. I don't care what anybody says ...random number generator my a$$ thats a crock. I've played enough poker live and online to see there is are a ton more action flops than you see live. Remember this view is from well over a million hands seen probably closer to 1.5 million so I'm not dreaming this up to pose some conspiracy theory about the sites being 'rigged' but I will say that I think there are differences in the texture of the way the cards fall in general in the long run. I just believe that no matter how you validate the reliability of the RNG's, there is a huge difference between the computer shuffling and a dealer shuffling. I've seen crazy beats live thats for sure..plenty of them....but not even close to the frequency which I see them on Stars...and its got nothing to do with the 'hands seen per hour'. I think my overall 'hands seen' sample size is more than enough to make a judgement here. I have pretty much always killed playing at the 1/2 NL and 2/4 NL games live and the online game is just a totally different ball game. It's not even close

[silkyjonson 1]

I've played a ton live and a ton online. I've seen a lot of sickness live and online and there isn't really a difference. I used to think that party was dealing out more monster hands and RNG hands but just eliminating some non action hands to increase the action. I don't know if it was paranoia but I have'nt thought that at any other sites but I think it could be happening, but IM not talking about runner runner and stuff like taht Im just talking about set over set 2 pair vs. set at 6 handed etc. It was a theory but I never really believed it, but thought it might be a possibility. Overall though I think its just that you see way more hands online and for the same time frame playing online you see double the bad beats but you are also playing double the amount of hands in the same time span.

[KoRnholio 2]

I gradually worked my stack up to just under $1000 in a matter of 6 hours and kept playing all night long. All told the entire session lasted until the next morning at about 10:00 AM where I finally cashed out close to 2 grand and went home to collapse. (taking the day off from work obv)

So you played for what, 14 hours? I'd peg a regular live NL table at about 20-25 hands per hour, so you played probably 300 hands or so in that session. 300 hands is literally nothing, that's about 1 hour of 6-tabling online. Keep the number of hands played (rather than time) constant and I am sure you will see the same number of beats in live vs online play.

[13CARDS 0]

... the funniest thing happened. There were no bad beats. There were no miracle runner runner flushes and I didn't get outdrawn a single time. My continuation bets were successful 80% of the time, and the players (for the most part) actually respected raises ?!???!!!???and didn't chase down pots with backdoor draws or calling down with an underpair chasing the 2 outter all the way to the river.

So, you've played 1.5 million hands of poker and you haven't yet realized you should want to play vs these players???

[gibler321 1]

So you played for what, 14 hours? I'd peg a regular live NL table at about 20-25 hands per hour, so you played probably 300 hands or so in that session. 300 hands is literally nothing, that's about 1 hour of 6-tabling online. Keep the number of hands played (rather than time) constant and I am sure you will see the same number of beats in live vs online play.

"Overall though I think its just that you see way more hands online and for the same time frame playing online you see double the bad beats but you are also playing double the amount of hands in the same time span."both right.some people are amazing online, and suck live.some people are amazing live, and suck online.you must be option #2edit: not saying you are amazing live, but you get the idea

[TR1N1TY 0]

"Overall though I think its just that you see way more hands online and for the same time frame playing online you see double the bad beats but you are also playing double the amount of hands in the same time span."both right.some people are amazing online, and suck live.some people are amazing live, and suck online.you must be option #2edit: not saying you are amazing live, but you get the idea

Ive had very good results online as well....nowhere in my original post did I suggest that I am 'losing online but winning live'. I have had a lot of success in both venues. But I am saying there is a difference in the texture of the cards and the true 'randomness' of the deal online. The only way to truly randomly shuffle a deck as far as I am concerned is physically shuffling them with 2 hands.

[James D 0]

My continuation bets were successful 80% of the time, and the players (for the most part) actually respected raises and didn't chase down pots with backdoor draws or calling down with an underpair chasing the 2 outter all the way to the river.

This is why there weren't so many bad beats then. Pretty simple.

[Jerry_Lundegaard 0]

This has of course ben discussed at least 1.5 million times...I can't see how it would be worth the risk for Stars to rig flops for big action to get a bit more rake. They are making unreal money. All it would take is one disgruntled employee to blow the whistle about rigging the RNG to bring it all down.I see no motivation at all to rig tourneys.The legit money they make is insane. They dont need to rig anything

[clingfree 0]

Ive had very good results online as well....nowhere in my original post did I suggest that I am 'losing online but winning live'. I have had a lot of success in both venues. But I am saying there is a difference in the texture of the cards and the true 'randomness' of the deal online. The only way to truly randomly shuffle a deck as far as I am concerned is physically shuffling them with 2 hands.

I believe there is some validity to this argument. I read an article somewhere, I'll look for a link later, where the author postulated that the difference in live and online shuffles is that the RNG is more completely random than what a dealer can do. I don't remember all of his reasoning, but at the time I was reading it he made sense to me. Of course, there is an extremely high probability that I was drunk that night, so pretty much anything and everything could have made sense.That said, I actually have nothing of import to add to this thread, so I will be off now.

[givalitl 0]

I was getting a little burnt out sitting in my computer cave getting 2 outted on Pokertards, so I thought I'd head down to the local casino to play a little live NLHE for a change. More out of total frustration than anything. Its bad enough holing yourself up staring at your monitor all day, but when the bad beats are flowing like a river its time to get the hell out of Dodge for a change of scenery.So I bail work a couple hours early and head down to the casino and put my name on the list for the 2/2 game $200 max buy in. The only no limit game running so it took a while to get a seat. When I finally sat down with my chips, it was like a huge weight instantly lifted off my shoulders. Ahhh thats sooo much better. Sitting at the table with real people, holding real cards and pushing real chips into the pot. What a huge difference. I settled right in and immediately started cleaning up within the first hour, and the funniest thing happened. There were no bad beats. There were no miracle runner runner flushes and I didn't get outdrawn a single time. My continuation bets were successful 80% of the time, and the players (for the most part) actually respected raises and didn't chase down pots with backdoor draws or calling down with an underpair chasing the 2 outter all the way to the river. I gradually worked my stack up to just under $1000 in a matter of 6 hours and kept playing all night long. All told the entire session lasted until the next morning at about 10:00 AM where I finally cashed out close to 2 grand and went home to collapse. (taking the day off from work obv)Now my point is this....I've played a ton of poker...live and online. I asked Stars to email me my 'total' hands played since becoming a member and it was over 800,000 hands. Combine that with over 2 years playing at Paradise, and the hundreds upon hundreds of hours logged at the cardrooms in Vegas and L.A. and I'm sure its over 1.5 million hands seen. Now thats not a bad sample size I think you'll agree.In that entire 18 hour session I played the other day, the wildest hand I saw was KK vs AA all in pre flop. I think there might have been a counterfeited pocket pair and maybe one set over set. But oddly missing was the all too familiar J/J in early position...QQ in mid position....AA in late position....and A/x suited all in pre flop with A/x suited four flushing the pot. Or the classic overpair vs underpair with the 2 outter on the river. I didn't see any massive miracle suckouts in 3 way pots and not once did I even see a board like 7/8/9/10/J with KQ sucking out on AA. You know the drill anybody on Stars has seen it a million times so I won't even go there.OK so after the entire night playing live and a good nights sleep the next day, I decided to take a couple hundred and put it on Stars to play last night and today..LOL what a joke I swear to God. I played just as solid as I always do and if I posted all the insane hands Ive seen in just the last few hours you would never believe it. Just now I was sitting in a 1/2 NL game with about 75 bucks and I catch A/A utg..I jam it up to 10 bucks and get 4 callers...lmao So the flop is Q/x/x rainbow no draws I check and this clown leads out for 1/2 his stack and I just put him all in after the other 2 fold....The guy goes runner runner spade flush with 5/9s lol wtf OK fine thats a fluke....I'll go play the $55.00 (25K guaranteed)...a few hands in I catch K/K on the button. There is a huge early position raise to like 500 chips at 10/20 blinds the guy obv wants action so I come over the top all in.....whoahhh small blind calls....big blind calls....original raiser calls....4 way all in. sb has A/A, bb has 10/10...original raiser has 7/7 and I have my K/K.....flop is 7/7/A....turn K...river A lmao yea riiiiiiiiiight. So I'm just laughing to be honest I was still happy from my session at the casino. I go sit in another 1/2 game with another hundred and the very first hand I catch 3/3 and flop quads...LOL Small pot but it was just hilarious to me....so I 'hit and run' that table and go sit in a $27.00 (45) man turbo and the very first hand I catch J/J...lol So I jam it up 5X and bam....some dude goes all in.....then another caller...then another one...LOL So I am just crackin up literally laughing my a$$ off (this is all in a span of about 15 minutes by the way) and I think 'screw it' and call just for fun with my Jacks even though I'm pretty sure I'm behind. The cards turn and its K/K, A/A and 7/7 and BAM I flop quads....LOL I mean get real.I could go on and on about all the crazy beats and miracle suckouts I see on Stars...Its gotten to the point where I expect them now. I don't care what anybody says ...random number generator my a$$ thats a crock. I've played enough poker live and online to see there is are a ton more action flops than you see live. Remember this view is from well over a million hands seen probably closer to 1.5 million so I'm not dreaming this up to pose some conspiracy theory about the sites being 'rigged' but I will say that I think there are differences in the texture of the way the cards fall in general in the long run. I just believe that no matter how you validate the reliability of the RNG's, there is a huge difference between the computer shuffling and a dealer shuffling. I've seen crazy beats live thats for sure..plenty of them....but not even close to the frequency which I see them on Stars...and its got nothing to do with the 'hands seen per hour'. I think my overall 'hands seen' sample size is more than enough to make a judgement here. I have pretty much always killed playing at the 1/2 NL and 2/4 NL games live and the online game is just a totally different ball game. It's not even close

AmenEdit: I can honestly say, with absolutely no exaggeration, that 2 minutes after I typed "Amen" I get KK in a $25max ring game. I raise it up 3.5x BB, after two folds another player min raises (love the online preflop min raises). The next 5 people call and when it gets back to me I move all in (happy to pick up the decent pot right there or get called by QQ). The min raiser calls my all in (his entire stack except for like $2) everyone else folds. He has KcQc!! Flop doesn't contain a single club, but does have a T J. Of course the turn is an A (I can honestly pick the situations where a terrible card is coming off with surprising accuracy at this point). Not the biggest deal in the world but just very ironic after my "Amen" post.

[givalitl 0]

I believe there is some validity to this argument. I read an article somewhere, I'll look for a link later, where the author postulated that the difference in live and online shuffles is that the RNG is more completely random than what a dealer can do. I don't remember all of his reasoning, but at the time I was reading it he made sense to me. Of course, there is an extremely high probability that I was drunk that night, so pretty much anything and everything could have made sense.That said, I actually have nothing of import to add to this thread, so I will be off now.

I've considered this too, that the cards dealt online aren't "action flops" or "rigged," but are so much more random than cards dealt at a casino that there is a definite difference between the "orientation" of the cards at the two forums. I would definitely assume that the majority of online players don't think online poker is "rigged" but there has to be a rather large group of players who think there's something "different" about the cards dealt online compared to live. And this theory would explain it without calling anyone a liar. Meaning that the online poker rooms are completely truthful when they say "Our RNG generates completely random cards" and I think everyone is in agreement that any reputable B&M poker room doesn't tell their dealers to stack the deck so there aren't many "action flops" (That image is kind of funny though, "Don't deal coolers or you're fired!"). I really like this theory because I am of the ilk that online cards are "different" but I don't feel that they are "rigged."

[Actuary 3]

I will not dignify this thread

[TR1N1TY 0]

I will not dignify this thread

[RunGoodBeats 0]

I understand this perception 100%, but assure myself that it is because each hand is delt from complete scratch, kind of like a video poker machine if you will.When I'm not lazy later I think I'll try to do some research into what kind of enforcements there are in place to protect players from sites rigging their rngs.

[11 to 1 0]

Putting aside that subjective perceptions do not data make - I think what's being discounted here is that it is more about the players than the cards. People who will go to a casino, put a couple hundred actual dollars of the line and play poker are going to be, for the most part, people who have been playing seriously somewhere. You said they respected your raises which is why you didn't see as many suckouts, I would say, not because the cards were different, because your opponents were. Last time I played live I had my trip Aces and my trip Queens both sucked out on. Happens. Last time I played online I had a respectable and average game where I increased my stack an average expected amount. But what didn't happen live was that 45% of the table saw the flop. The results online are more about who is playing than about what is dealt. This is stating the ridiculously obvious but online Hold 'Em, even NL, is just a different game than casino Hold 'Em. By all means go play live a whole bunch, but your experience does not make online play "fixed" even if it does seem broken.

[TR1N1TY 0]

Putting aside that subjective perceptions do not data make - I think what's being discounted here is that it is more about the players than the cards. People who will go to a casino, put a couple hundred actual dollars of the line and play poker are going to be, for the most part, people who have been playing seriously somewhere. You said they respected your raises which is why you didn't see as many suckouts, I would say, not because the cards were different, because your opponents were. Last time I played live I had my trip Aces and my trip Queens both sucked out on. Happens. Last time I played online I had a respectable and average game where I increased my stack an average expected amount. But what didn't happen live was that 45% of the table saw the flop. The results online are more about who is playing than about what is dealt. This is stating the ridiculously obvious but online Hold 'Em, even NL, is just a different game than casino Hold 'Em. By all means go play live a whole bunch, but your experience does not make online play "fixed" even if it does seem broken.

[Royal_Tour 0]

OP, u are dumb.i play at a casino 4-12 hours a day, depending on day. and in my last 2 sessions, I've lost to 3 gut shot straights on the river.I bet big on the flop, get called. i shove the turn, they think for a bit, they call. they have 4 outs. they have hit more often than missed.Its just what happens because of pure dumb luck.

[troyomac 0]

OP, u are dumb.i play at a casino 4-12 hours a day, depending on day. and in my last 2 sessions, I've lost to 3 gut shot straights on the river.I bet big on the flop, get called. i shove the turn, they think for a bit, they call. they have 4 outs. they have hit more often than missed.Its just what happens because of pure dumb luck.

I PM'ed you TARD.

[XXEddie 0]

This is why there weren't so many bad beats then. Pretty simple.

QFTis the play, not the cards

[chrozzo 19]

wait...what?

[Merby 3]

I'm glad the deck was kind to you. Just remember, playing live, you will (eventually) experience as many "suck-outs" and "sick hands" as you will online. The catch is that it will take a LOT longer to obtain a comparable sample size. Here is quick comparison.You played an 18 hour session live:--18 hour live session--30 hands per hour (optimistically) --(obviously) only one-tablingEquals 540 hands total (est.)compare that to a reasonable online session--4 tabling online--50 hands per hour at each table--equals 200 hands per hourIt will take less than three hours to equal your 18 hour live session.Cheers,Merby

[TR1N1TY 0]

LOL I sent my buddy the original post and here is his reply From: <xxxx@hotmail.com> View Contact Details View Contact Details Add Mobile AlertTo: xxxxxxx@gmail.comSubject: RE: RnG's vs The Dealer ShuffleDate: Fri, 11 May 2007 05:04:01 +0000LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,Dude, that was a clasic story of BS online poker. You cant tell me anything I havent already seen though. I played Bodog for hours apon hours, and saw hands that you'd NEVER see live. I think alot of it has to do with who is more apt to "re-up" the most money. If you constantly re-up, you will get screwed time and time again on online poker, because they know you'll put more money in. The casual player, if he gets beat, he can go play golf, or beat his pud, but he wont re-up. Its all about how much money they can get, not the skills of the players. The more you re-up, the more you'll continue to have bad beats. I wont play more than $10 tourny's online for that exact reason. OH, and if you win a big sports bet, you're screwed when you play poker on the same sight. I cant tell you how many timesw I'd win a 3 or 4 team football parlay, or a straight bet for $100 on bodog, and then be all happy, and play $25 tourny's, and get AA and lose to 6-7. Its a total joke. Play online if your drunk and cant drive to the casino, otherwise, make the drive and screw online poker. Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeece

[Actuary 3]

how do you even put your pants on?your reasoning skills are amazi amusing

[11 to 1 0]

wait...what?

it's pie.....and chips.....for free.Write it down, wouldja?

[TR1N1TY 0]

how do you even put your pants on?your reasoning skills are amazi amusing