Should I Be Able To Lay This Down?

[bossyrossy 0]

FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):--------------------------------------------------------------------------------PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO ($217.90)Button ($492.75)SB ($186.95)Hero ($196)UTG ($74.85)MP ($263.20)Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A. UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero raises to $16, UTG folds, CO calls $10.Flop: ($35) 3, Q, K(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero raises to $30, CO raises to $201.9, Hero calls $150 (All-In).Turn: ($395) Q(2 players, 1 all-in)River: ($395) 6(2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: $395

[bdc30 0]

Lead the flop. If you plan to check/raise, make it a bigger one at least to $40-50 (pot size)bbfidts (actually, so is nlhef)

[Zach6668 513]

Why the **** did you check raise?Serious question.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Reraise bigger preflop.DO NOT CHECK RAISE THE FLOP!!!!bbfidts

[bossyrossy 0]

Even if I lead the flop, I still see myself going broke here. I mean say I had done that, bet around the pot and he calls. Do you fire again at the turn?I checked as he was very agressive and I knew he would bet any pair and try to reprent a big hand. I agree I should have check raised a larger amount, then it may have been an easier laydown.

[Acid_Knight 2]

always checking flops to c/r an aggro villain is not the best idea. just lead out, get raised and then 3 bet all in.

[jack24bauer24 0]

Unless he's a complete douche he has kq at a minimum here.

[IBFT 0]

Unless he's a complete douche he has kq at a minimum here.

JT of hearts makes sense here, depending on villian.His preflop raise doesnt really say too much strength, and he could definitely be raising light in position. His call of hero's reraise is almost automatic, since the reraise was way too small. If my math is right (and it usually isn't) villain had to call $10 to see $25, so he's getting a good price.That said, JT sooted is the ONLY hand I think you're beating here. (Unless he just plays AK really poorly)

[d0c 0]

Preflop 3bet too small. You're giving odds to almost anything that made the bet in first place. I would add also KhJh to his range

[Royal_Tour 0]

just a quick note, as some of our members are silly.I'm not sure if i'll be wording this correctly, but anyways a c/r on this flop should only be used as a way to really find out if you're behind to hands you think he held that have hit.if you put him on a KQ , KK or QQ holding, you should be letting this go when he 3 bets all in. Your c/r signifies strength and not a C-bet. It shows you didnt care if he checked behind. Like others have said, you should be leading this flop, but if for some reason you believe this flop hit your opponent and you set up the c/r to find out info, well you have the info and should fold.as played its a fold. If I played it, i would raise more preflop, and lead the flop.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Check-raise harder. $60-$75. KQ ... I don't think so ... Villain's range is usually AK KK QQ suited connectors ... Villain holds AK here so many times it's silly. We're behind about 40% of his range, ahead of 60% ... I get really confused if he re-raises my check-raise. AA is only one pair, and I hate going broke with it unless I know something about the villain. Our read also depends our behavior ... IOW, villain's read on us. Getting outdrawn by a combo draw here is not a bad beat.

[bossyrossy 0]

Thanks guys, some really good responses there. I now know I really should have raised more preflop, in which case we might have got it all in pre...lost anyway, but hey I would have got the money in ahead and thats all I can do.In future I think I will raise more pre. Would you say around $25-30 would have been the right amount?He has KK by the way, didnt realise this wasn't shown on the HH

[Jadaki 0]

Thanks guys, some really good responses there. I now know I really should have raised more preflop, in which case we might have got it all in pre...lost anyway, but hey I would have got the money in ahead and thats all I can do.In future I think I will raise more pre. Would you say around $25-30 would have been the right amount?

I probably go 20-24. It's enough that some hands you are way ahead of can call incorrectly, but not enough that it's blowing him completely out of the pot.

[GabeTheKid 0]

Reraise bigger preflop.DO NOT CHECK RAISE THE FLOP!!!!bbfidts

[GabeTheKid 0]

Thanks guys, some really good responses there. I now know I really should have raised more preflop, in which case we might have got it all in pre...lost anyway, but hey I would have got the money in ahead and thats all I can do.In future I think I will raise more pre. Would you say around $25-30 would have been the right amount?He has KK by the way, didnt realise this wasn't shown on the HH

30 is too much.24 is good

[Zach6668 513]

just a quick note, as some of our members are silly.I'm not sure if i'll be wording this correctly, but anyways a c/r on this flop should only be used as a way to really find out if you're behind to hands you think he held that have hit.if you put him on a KQ , KK or QQ holding, you should be letting this go when he 3 bets all in. Your c/r signifies strength and not a C-bet. It shows you didnt care if he checked behind. Like others have said, you should be leading this flop, but if for some reason you believe this flop hit your opponent and you set up the c/r to find out info, well you have the info and should fold.as played its a fold. If I played it, i would raise more preflop, and lead the flop.

I think a c/r for information is a massive spew.We can c/r for value, certainly, but not for information, alone.I don't know if we get any better info from his reaction to our c/r than we do to a standard c-bet, at least when comparing the relative prices of each, where a c/r is way more expensive.

[Acid_Knight 2]

c/r for info provides one kind of info only:checkraiser = spewmonkey

[Royal_Tour 0]

I think a c/r for information is a massive spew.We can c/r for value, certainly, but not for information, alone.I don't know if we get any better info from his reaction to our c/r than we do to a standard c-bet, at least when comparing the relative prices of each, where a c/r is way more expensive.

c/r for info provides one kind of info only:checkraiser = spewmonkey

you guys are silly.whats your line? C-bet, villain raise, hero 3 bet all in? thats not a spew? you guys have successfully managed to eliminate a fold option.

[Acid_Knight 2]

you guys are silly.whats your line? C-bet, villain raise, hero 3 bet all in? thats not a spew? you guys have successfully managed to eliminate a fold option.

we have AA, who'd wanna fold?(sw)If you c/r, it's not for information, it's for value. That's the key concept. Nobody's saying that if you get 3-bet that it isn't time to fold. The idea is that when you do choose to c/r, it should be because you're pretty sure you've got the best hand, not becuase you're unsure if you've got the best hand or not.

[Royal_Tour 0]

we have AA, who'd wanna fold?(sw)If you c/r, it's not for information, it's for value. That's the key concept. Nobody's saying that if you get 3-bet that it isn't time to fold. The idea is that when you do choose to c/r, it should be because you're pretty sure you've got the best hand, not becuase you're unsure if you've got the best hand or not.

I disagree, Who says a c/r should only be used for value? Obviously thats what most people use it for, but why should you eliminate it from your arsenal just because its usually used as a way to extract value.Too many people are too concerned with playing their hand a certain way, when they should be asking what does villain hold in his range that I beat, what beats me, what does he think I have that he beats, and when will I know when i'm beat, or when will I know I'm still ahead.You guys have told him what not too do, and what to do preflop and as 1st to act on the flop.But no one has finished the hand.My guess is he leads out 25, villain raise to 60 (maybe he wuld raise more) and do we fold now? You would say No, you would 3-bet all in. How is this line optimal? If its aces vs kings, then he probably should have got them all in preflop somehow. especially for stacks of 100bb's or less. thats the only thing i can think of that makes more sense.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I disagree, Who says a c/r should only be used for value? Obviously thats what most people use it for, but why should you eliminate it from your arsenal just because its usually used as a way to extract value.Too many people are too concerned with playing their hand a certain way, when they should be asking what does villain hold in his range that I beat, what beats me, what does he think I have that he beats, and when will I know when i'm beat, or when will I know I'm still ahead.You guys have told him what not too do, and what to do preflop and as 1st to act on the flop.But no one has finished the hand.My guess is he leads out 25, villain raise to 60 (maybe he wuld raise more) and do we fold now? You would say No, you would 3-bet all in. How is this line optimal? If its aces vs kings, then he probably should have got them all in preflop somehow. especially for stacks of 100bb's or less. thats the only thing i can think of that makes more sense.

There are no ranges assigned at any point in this hand. The fact is that if the villain has a flush draw, a straight draw, AK, KJ or any other hand that he will stack off with here, a bet/3bet line is still far and away the best line to take. We lose this hand becuase he flops a set. I'd wager that he goes broke with AK here a large % of the time.Online players don't look for folds nearly as much as live players do and that's because online is so much more aggressive. I think that without a read, it's still very profitable to take a bet/3bet line here becuase of the multitude of draws that are out there.

[Zach6668 513]

It's not that we don't make check raises for reasons other than value, it's that in this specific case, it's way too expensive just to find out you're beat, and fold.What if we check, and he makes a normal bet of $25? Then we c/r to $60? We're spending 30 bbs just to fold?There has to be a better way. If we think this flop hit his range so hard, there's no reason we need to c-bet or c/r. Check/calling might be a good play vs a player like this. If he continues to bet strong on the turn, we can certainly let go of a one pair hand. No?If you're (not you, specifically), need to have his cards flipped face up to assess when we are behind, you won't win a lot of money in poker anyways. That's basically what you're doing when you c/r/f. There's other ways of getting information, that don't cost us nearly as much.

[Royal_Tour 0]

It's not that we don't make check raises for reasons other than value, it's that in this specific case, it's way too expensive just to find out you're beat, and fold.What if we check, and he makes a normal bet of $25? Then we c/r to $60? We're spending 30 bbs just to fold?There has to be a better way. If we think this flop hit his range so hard, there's no reason we need to c-bet or c/r. Check/calling might be a good play vs a player like this. If he continues to bet strong on the turn, we can certainly let go of a one pair hand. No?If you're (not you, specifically), need to have his cards flipped face up to assess when we are behind, you won't win a lot of money in poker anyways. That's basically what you're doing when you c/r/f. There's other ways of getting information, that don't cost us nearly as much.

well, if we think we're ahead of most of his range, (as acid said : KJ, AK and flush, but behind the rest of his range, KQ,KK,QQ) does anyone like just calling a normal sized flop bet, if we dont lead.I agree we should raise more, pf and lead. OK. but as played, hero got himself into a situation, how can we get out of it?villain made a small weak bet when checked too, we c/r... villain pushes, seems like a standard fold?

[Royal_Tour 0]

edit: noticed you said c/c flop zach if villan would have pottedi agree with you about that.

[Zach6668 513]

well, if we think we're ahead of most of his range, (as acid said : KJ, AK and flush, but behind the rest of his range, KQ,KK,QQ) does anyone like just calling a normal sized flop bet, if we dont lead.I agree we should raise more, pf and lead. OK. but as played, hero got himself into a situation, how can we get out of it?villain made a small weak bet when checked too, we c/r... villain pushes, seems like a standard fold?

Oh, I agree, once we check, and he bets weak, I'm c/r'ing like he did, and always folding to the raise. We're raising as a value play though, not to find out where we're at. We're expecting him to show up with a worse hand enough to make the raise a value play. Once we shoves though, we know we're behind too often to call.