ChrisRichey 1 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yes, I see both, first in VIG homie. Zach has to call you no matter what, so already its a coinflip at best to double, but a decent amount of the time its a PP better than yours, then if anyone else calls behind you, you are either crushed or in this situation like 1/3 to win.Ok, with an M > 4, I am HOPING for a coinflip. A decent amount of the time it's a higher pp is wrong. Sorry. With a stack of 800, and two other stacks at 4k+, first in vig is meaningless, because I have NO fold equity. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 cop.....Great HU's play. I enjoyed it, and not just because I won. I usually play much more aggressive HU. But you were playing very conservative (I thought). So I was a little more patient.Good game.It's water under the bridge now. It's over with. Time to move on and hopefully it won't happen again.I wasnt being conservative, I was card dead..couldnt hit a flop. I got my share of folds from you preflop. Two of the 4 decent hands I had, you had better, and you ducked one full house.GG. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 What is your VPIP in tournies, like 4?nah.I ma too tight late though.looking closer, I guess you really just got in a bad spot with the push and BB call, you had to call 300 more.. but no flop is really going to make you happy.Is there any flop Cop doesnt push?You just got in a bad pickle there.So I'm being results oriented.Trying to isolate jsut the pf raise, I think its bigger than necessary and folding is not bad, against BB big stack big defender and the short stacks that will push a lot here Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Ok, with an M > 4, I am HOPING for a coinflip. A decent amount of the time it's a higher pp is wrong. Sorry. With a stack of 800, and two other stacks at 4k+, first in vig is meaningless, because I have NO fold equity.I think you mean with an M<4? That's fine, it's exactly what you are doing, hoping for a coinflip. I think it's a give up play, push and pray. I don't buy that you have 0FE from the 4k stacks, you are still eating 20% of their stack and so far from the money as you previously stated, that they can't go spewing chips to endanger themselves.Even if you think those 2 stacks are not folding any hands that they would normally limp with to you, you are still able to push everyone else off the table with your push.What do you think Zach's raising range from EP is? I think AT is the worst hand he's opening up with. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Ok, with an M > 4, I am HOPING for a coinflip. A decent amount of the time it's a higher pp is wrong. Sorry. With a stack of 800, and two other stacks at 4k+, first in vig is meaningless, because I have NO fold equity.800 is fold equity for sure if 1st in Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 nah.I ma too tight late though.looking closer, I guess you really just got in a bad spot with the push and BB call, you had to call 300 more.. but no flop is really going to make you happy.Is there any flop Cop doesnt push?You just got in a bad pickle there.So I'm being results oriented.Trying to isolate jsut the pf raise, I think its bigger than necessary and folding is not bad, against BB big stack big defender and the short stacks that will push a lot hereLet me break it down:My initial raise is standard. MP1, 7 handed table, ATo.Chris raised it, obv an insta call for me. Then Cop calls. I think he has to have a pretty strong hand, and certainly something that crushes ATo, but I'm getting 10-1. I wanted to fold very badly, but I'd have been pretty happy with a ATx flop, lol, or TTx., lol, etc. I can't fold for 10-1 preflop there.I highly doubt cop pushes any flop there, btw, and I'm pretty sure since he's showing down the hand no matter what, he only pushes when he's ahead. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Let me break it down:My initial raise is standard. MP1, 7 handed table, ATo.not for me with the stacks laid out and Cop BB.But, personal pref. fine play.ok..Maybe Cop doesn't puash any flop...you did have 900 leftThinking you had 300, duh Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Anybody who condones calling KQo after a raise and a reraise is nuts. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Anybody who condones calling KQo after a raise and a reraise is nuts.what if he had 6000 ? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 what if he had 6000 ?Ok, ammend my post to say, given the stacks/blinds and the situation. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Converter link is down.Seat 1: Zach6668 (1655 in chips) Seat 4: ChrisRichey (820 in chips) Seat 7: TheDominator (3090 in chips) CancerSucks: posts small blind 75TheDominator: posts big blind 150*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to TheDominator [Qc Kd]PokeHerPros: folds Zach6668: raises 300 to 450 pot is 675; Z has 1205 left behindfan1080: folds ChrisRichey: raises 370 to 820 and is all-in pot is 1495throwemaway: folds CancerSucks: folds TheDominator: calls 670 im getting 2.25:1 HU, 1.44:1 if Zach pushes behind meZach6668: calls 370*** FLOP *** [9d 3c Ks]TheDominator: bets 2270 and is all-inZach6668: folds CancerSucks said, "welcome back"Zach6668 said, "obv"*** TURN *** [9d 3c Ks] [7s]ChrisRichey said, "2"*** RIVER *** [9d 3c Ks 7s] [7c]ChrisRichey said, "lol"PokeHerPros said, "rigged"*** SHOW DOWN ***TheDominator: shows [Qc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)ChrisRichey: shows [2c 2d] (two pair, Sevens and Deuces)ChrisRichey said, "gg"TheDominator collected 2535 from potCjris has a huge range here. I'm sure I'm no worse than a coinflip, and with those odds if I get HU with him I'm very happy. There is some argument for me pushing here to isolate. Still, I dont see Zach coming in with very many hands (66+, AQ+), and a lot of the boards I need to beat Chris most likely have me paired up and beating Zach too.My equity drops to around 25% if Zach comes in, or about 650, but hes only in 10% of the time, for a net of 65, and it costs an extra 1205*10%, so he hurts my equity by 55. The other 90% of the time Im 50% for 1485 or 668 and it costs 603. So overall the entire proposition is +10 whopping TC...admittedly closer than I thought it was.Still, the leverage that knocking them both out gives me for the rest of the tourney makes an essentially neutral play strongly +$EV. And if I lose, I still have 1300 chips to play with..not a horrible fall back position.I stand by this one. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 If Zach had ATo his preflop play is worse than Copernicus'sI don't like 22 all in eitherGiven the odds Zach hasAnd fact Coper defends a lot.Copers call is not that bad, pretty marginal looking nowIf Zach shoves, he's getting 3500 for 900.So, I think Cop has to figure on no re-pop a lot hereBecause the 3500-900 is going to be a call, and he's down to 14003500-900? My numbers cant be that far off can they? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 3500-900? My numbers cant be that far off can they?I mean if Zach pushes preflop it's about 900 more to cal and pot be about 3500i'm really tired..my analyiss sux Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 3500-900? My numbers cant be that far off can they?The only way I can possibly agree with playing KQ is if you shove for isolation.You guys are all being results oriented in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I mean if Zach pushes preflop it's about 900 more to cal and pot be about 3500i'm really tired..my analyiss suxOh...3500 including my additional money, which is a bit of a non sequiter Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 The only way I can possibly agree with playing KQ is if you shove for isolation.You guys are all being results oriented in this thread.I too tired to chk Cops numbersWhere is the results orientation, grumpy? Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 The only way I can possibly agree with playing KQ is if you shove for isolation.You guys are all being results oriented in this thread.Totally disagree. first of all, its the same analysis I did during play, so it cant be "results oriented".As I said above..pushing to isolate is probably a slightly better play, but there cant be a huge difference. Almost all of Chris' hands have an A or are an underpair, and if Im going to beat him I have to pair up. Inviting you into the hand to see if an A flops, when the only real risk is that it lets you see a set that you would have otherwise folded cant do that much to my EV.For there to be any difference you have to have a hand that you will call the initial raise with, not push yourself with, and would fold to my push. It sounds like low to middle pairs and maybe AK. I dont mind you in the hand with any of those holdings. what did you have? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 You can't expect me to fold ANYTHING preflop after your call.Let me finish my SH LHE session and I'll come back here and explain why I hate your call.I was ahead of you, and I think your call is awful. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 My early KTo hand with Zach....PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t1500)SB (t1500)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)MP (t1500)CO (t1500)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, T. 2 folds, CO raises to t80, Hero calls t80, 2 folds.Flop: (t190) J, K, J(2 players)CO checks, Hero bets t100, CO raises to t333, Hero calls t233.Turn: (t856) 7(2 players)CO checks, Hero checks.River: (t856) A(2 players)CO checks, Hero checks.Final Pot: t856Results in white below: CO has 9c 9h (two pair, jacks and nines). Hero has Kd Th (two pair, kings and jacks). Outcome: Hero wins t856. My strategy was to play more hands early while the blinds were low because we were short handed. My starting hand requirements are much wider here.For this hand, the blinds are still small and I have position. This hand met all of my strategy requirements, so I called.edit: street analysis......flop: I hit flop, and was fairly certain it missed zach. No way to know for sure he doesn't have AK, KQ, and I couldn't see him raising pf with a J, so his check-raise was suspicious.Turn: Zach checks again. No need to get more chips in the pot with a small hand, so I check as well.River: Zach checks again, either looking for another check-raise, or his hand is weak. Again, no need to put more money in the pot with a small hand, so I checked as well. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 My push into raise and multi-called pot.....Maybe I'm too used to losing AA to multi-way pots and getting really loose calls in the low stakes I currently play. Anyway, I push becasue I don't want to screw around with what has traditionally been loose calls in these tournies so far.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t2463)UTG (t1330)MP (t1440)CO (t1400)Button (t1300)SB (t1067)Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A. UTG raises to t60, 2 folds, Button calls t60, SB calls t50, Hero raises to t2483, UTG folds, Button folds, SB folds.Final Pot: t2663Results in white below: No showdown. Hero wins t2663. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Versus zach again......PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t2573)Button (t1270)SB (t1420)BB (t1400)UTG (t1240)MP (t1097)Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A. 1 fold, MP raises to t60, Hero calls t60, 3 folds.Flop: (t150) 7, T, 3(2 players)MP bets t88, Hero calls t88.Turn: (t326) 2(2 players)MP checks, Hero checks.River: (t326) 2(2 players)MP bets t244, Hero calls t244.Final Pot: t814Results in white below: MP has Qs Jh (one pair, twos). Hero has Kd Ac (one pair, twos). Outcome: Hero wins t814. Zach has been playing somewhat loose. Blinds are still low and I have position on zach. Preflop: I should have re-popped it here, my mistake.Flop: flop missed me, but I have overs and position. His raise makes no sense, easy call.Turn: His check here leads me to believe he has overs and missed. I should have bet here, but being the weak-tight rookie I am, I checked. I have a hard time pulling the trigger against you guys, you all are tricky and good.River: No need to get more money in the pot on what might be a tricky play by zach. I check again.My push into throwemaway's re-raisePokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t2995)MP (t1340)CO (t1410)Button (t1370)SB (t1180)BB (t705)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 4. Hero calls t20, MP calls t20, CO calls t20, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (t100) 4, J, A(5 players)Final Pot: t100Results in white below: BB doesn't show. Hero doesn't show. MP doesn't show. CO doesn't show. SB doesn't show. Outcome: Hero wins t20. MP wins t20. CO wins t20. SB wins t20. BB wins t20. My hand against TB17, that put him out, sorry TB.Flopped a straight.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t3215)Button (t1030)SB (t2450)BB (t160)UTG (t1330)MP (t815)Preflop: Hero is CO with J, A. 2 folds, Hero raises to t80, Button calls t80, 2 folds.Flop: (t190) T, K, Q(2 players)Hero bets t100, Button calls t100.Turn: (t390) 9(2 players)Hero bets t280, Button calls t280.River: (t950) 5(2 players)Hero bets t600, Button calls t570 (All-In).Final Pot: t2120Results in white below: Hero has Js Ad (straight, ace high). Button has Kc 9c (two pair, kings and nines). Outcome: Hero wins t2120. Another hand against zach.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t4275)UTG (t2440)MP (t170)Button (t1330)SB (t785)Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 7. 3 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (t60) T, 5, Q(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.Turn: (t60) 8(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.River: (t60) 8(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets t60, SB calls t60.Final Pot: t180Results in white below: Hero has 8h 7h (three of a kind, eights). SB has Ac 5d (two pair, eights and fives). Outcome: Hero wins t180. Really nothing to discuss, but I'm sure zach was really upset with losing to me long before this hand.Sorry, zach. I'm still learn'n! Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 We were on a full table shortly after that and I tightened up my starting hand requirements. Not that it mattered though, I was pretty much card dead for quite some time once we got to the FT.I enjoyed it for the most part. You folks are good players and I can only learn more by playing with you. That's why I play these.Lots of folks don't think there is value in playing against someone who is better than yourself. I'm not sure I completely agree, but hey, I'm a weak tight rookie...... remember? Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 What is wrong with the first hand? KTo is a loose call pf but it's cheap enough and hero had position.AA, serious overbet.Hand with 87, bet turn.With AK you should be reraising pf. If not raise that flop. At least bet the turn.These hands aren't donktastic. Mistakes were made but it's not like he called off his stack with middle pair. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 What is wrong with the first hand? KTo is a loose call pf but it's cheap enough and hero had position.AA, serious overbet.Hand with 87, bet turn.With AK you should be reraising pf. If not raise that flop. At least bet the turn.These hands aren't donktastic. Mistakes were made but it's not like he called off his stack with middle pair.Agree on all points.I'm much too much of a noob to be playing against these guys. I'm way out classed with respect to knowledge of poker. Link to post Share on other sites
Outlaw4033 0 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Lots of folks don't think there is value in playing against someone who is better than yourself. I'm not sure I completely agree, but hey, I'm a weak tight rookie...... remember? I agree with this. I learn a lot from playing these tourneys, even though I'm seriously out-matched. This tournament I learned that you shouldn't ever fold the Krablar hand. Ever. That's something you can only learn from playing, not by reading. Link to post Share on other sites
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