i folded ak to a 3x bb raise, comments?

[No1Special 0]

Well...thats a tough spot but I think against a short stack with only 900 left you take that chance, especially if you hit and get a chip lead. But nice job winning it anyways!! :twisted:

[JFarrell20 1]

Just looking for some comments on this, i was playing a NLHE tournament, 4 people left, top 2 get paid.Blinds where 100/200, i had 3000 in my stack. I was on the BB with AK, the small blind raise it 600 more over the top. I figured that if i call, and miss the flop - ill be moving all in in the next few hands, or if i move in over the top he'll have to call (he was left with about 900).I know it was most likely the best hand, but i just decided why take a 50/50 or a 3 to 1 when i can just see more flops or steal blinds - where im not expecting a showdown. The play caused a bit of controversy at the table. (i went on to win the thing!)Anybody got any comments on this?

Move over the top of him. Usually when it's down to 4 and it was folded around to the SB, he's not going to "steal" your blind with a good hand. His large raise was just an attempt to steal your big blind. If he had a strong hand would he have raised so much? No. Push him all in. And sure... he probably would have to call but who cares. Your AK is in a race at worst. Play for first place.

[budica 0]

You won the tournament so no matter what it was the right move in my eyes.

[SimonGreen 0]

I dont care what kind of hand he had, like i said i believed i could outplay the field - and i did. Afterwards i never got to a stage, until the last hand - where i actually had to show something down before the river. If this was a cash game - believe me id have probably called if the stacks were the same, but as Smash said - this is tournament play - its not all about slamming all your chips in on a slight edge.

[JFarrell20 1]

This raise here is almost allways a small to medium pair.

I disagree... down to 4 players..and it gets folded around to the SB... if he has a medium to strong pair he's probably going to want to get a call by the BB, then move all in on the flop no matter what. Why would he raise 3XBB here with any pair? He's raising into a large chipstack that has no need to put his chips at risk. Easy time to steal. 95% of the time the OP is way ahead. If the SB had a nominal pair, I'd look for a minimum raise here, then a push on the flop no matter what. The raise of 3XBB here would have me believe he's on two paint cards that aren't paired. He's simply blind stealing.Really we can't say until we know what all 4 chipstacks were though. But tend to play for first when you are that close to it. It's worth slightly more risk to get the first place pay. AK is a monster four-handed. Don't be so timid. He's not guaranteed to call your all-in preflop either. Technically he should, even with 27off but a lot of players will fold and wait for "a better opportunity", which they'll soon realize won't come in time for the blinds to eat them alive.

[Scott3705 0]

i agree with Simon that generally in tournaments I like to avoid coinflips if I feel that I can out play my opponents on flops and steal blinds more effectively than anyone else at the table.that said, I still believe folding is wrong here as it is time to run some races. The fact that one of the players is pot committed by simply putting in a standard raise shows that there is not a whole lot of post flop playing going on. Suppose you raise AK on the button in two hands after your lay down to 600 with one caller (BB). now the pot is 1300 with your stack being around 2200-2400. You might be able to steal the pot, but if your opponent gets any piece of the board, he's going to be pushing all in. I just don't think the chip stacks are large enough here to justify laying down AK to one raiser preflop. Gotta push all in and hope he's making the move with AQ AJ. Just curious, what type of tournament was this? Home game? Cause when i first read this post I thought it was a 5 man SNG.

[JFarrell20 1]

You won the tournament so no matter what it was the right move in my eyes.

Yes and no. This is dangerous logic.

[NickTheKid 0]

Good fold IMO.

[JFarrell20 1]

I dont care what kind of hand he had, like i said i believed i could outplay the field - and i did.

You got lucky. What happens if you get dealt no better than 8 high over the next 15 hands? You think "outplaying" is that much of an edge with garbage like that? You cannot waste opportunities. Poker is about maximizing ever opportunity you come to, that's it.Folding AK there could have been fatal.

[SimonGreen 0]

This was a club game. After the table had seen me lay down AK to that raise ( i was sure to show it) it worked well to my advantage stealing the rest of the game, building up a big enough stack to win the tournament. I was never involved in a show down for all of my chips.

[Blink20 0]

You won the tournament so no matter what it was the right move in my eyes.

I'm just responding to this, there have been great responses to the actual correct strategy in this situation. I'm just going to simply state that you cannot judge the play of a hand by its results. Just because he went on to win the tournament does not mean that his play was correct. With any poker decision, analyzing it afterwards, you have to look at things like how many players left, chip stack sizes, position, etc etc in order to determine if it was the right play. For example, say you have 1000 in front of you, the pot has 25, someone pushes you all in and you have a gutshot straight draw on the flop, if you call and win, yo ucan't say it was a good play just because you took down the pot. Sorry for the obvious response, but I just see posts like that all the time that evaluate the play from a results perspective.

[SapphireTiger 0]

okay, uhm so the OP why dont' you post more information so we can have a more informed debate.i'm not sure at this point what I would do...but AK sure gets misplayed in most situations.

[SimonGreen 0]

I dont care what kind of hand he had, like i said i believed i could outplay the field - and i did.

You got lucky. What happens if you get dealt no better than 8 high over the next 15 hands? You think "outplaying" is that much of an edge with garbage like that? You cannot waste opportunities. Poker is about maximizing ever opportunity you come to, that's it.Folding AK there could have been fatal.

I've already said - i was getting dealt 7-8 high, and i used over the top all-ins when i sensed weakness, and built up a good stack this way. This turned out to be no-risk, whereas if id played my AK, which would have ended in a showdown inevitably, i was risking my tournament on a 50/50.

[No1Special 0]

I read some of the other posts that have been written. And some said call....now I think that would be you worst move...if you dont hit the small stack pushes you have to fold. Either Fold or Push it in and take thew chance. But either way you won..so once again Congrats!

[Swift_Psycho 1]

The play caused a bit of controversy at the table.I'm not really against folding A-K here, but I'd avoid doing it face up from now on so that you don't get hassled by your friends who probably aren't good enough to get any "message" you are trying to send them anyway.Sidenote: I'm assuming you folded it face up because they probably wouldn't have found a face down fold so controversial.

[SimonGreen 0]

More informationBB (me) - 2,800SB - 1,500Button - small stackplayer four was chip leaderBlinds were 100-200Player four and button fold, SB calls the 100 and raises another 600.I folded.(Sorry if anythings slightly different, just had someone over from the game who jogged my memory)

[Scott3705 0]

More informationBB (me) - 2,800SB - 1,500Button - small stackplayer four was chip leaderBlinds were 100-200Player four and button fold, SB calls the 100 and raises another 600.I folded.(Sorry if anythings slightly different, just had someone over from the game who jogged my memory)

The chip stacks here definately make me feel as though the chip stacks are not deep enough to justify the fold. Two of the players here are not going to be playing hands post flop and you will usually have to take them on with some sort of preflop all in unless you want the chip leader to eat them up which is exactly what you don't want. You want to put those chips in your stack when you feel like you're at worst 50/50. (Basically nobody really said they thought u were against KK AA)

[SimonGreen 0]

I think that the figures are a bit wrong there, its hard to continue this dicussion as i am unsure about the exact stack sizes.These look like itd make me desperate with the blind levels, which i wasnt. Thanks for the discussion anyway - was interesting.A more general view of what they were isMe - In pretty decent shape, bad shape if i doubled up the raiserRaiser - Not very desperate with his stack compared to blindsButton - Short StackFourth player - Big daddy chip leader

[strategy 4]

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[Socrates 0]

Didn't read the whole thread, but folding AK to a 3x raise is about as weak tight of a move you can make in poker.

[SimonGreen 0]

Didn't read the whole thread, but folding AK to a 3x raise is about as weak tight of a move you can make in poker.

Well, try actually reading the thread and you will maybe understand some of my thinking behind it. Splinter Cell.

[ddoggphx 0]

so are you folding JJ here too, and waiting for someone to drop out in 3rd and 4th before you do?JJ's a so much better hand here it's not even in the same ballpark. You're crushing a smaller pair most of the time with JJ.

Seriously. I mean, it isn't even an issue. AK is a drawing hand, and people need to play it as such. Sure, it's the absolute best drawing hand, but it's not a made hand. JJ is a made hand and I'd take my shot with it. People overplay AK so much.And I agree with the smaller pair being likely there. 3xbb raise would probably signify that from a good player. I might have layed the AK down, or called it. It would have really just depended on my read of the other player, but laying it down is a legit play. And by showing it, you are getting future value from it as well, as the OP noted. Your re-raises now really indicate strength.

[Scott3705 0]

And I agree with the smaller pair being likely there. 3xbb raise would probably signify that from a good player. I might have layed the AK down, or called it. It would have really just depended on my read of the other player, but laying it down is a legit play. And by showing it, you are getting future value from it as well, as the OP noted. Your re-raises now really indicate strength.

Why exactly is a small pair more likely than AJ, KQ. Also why does the 3xbb signify a small pair? 3xBB is a fairly standard raise.

[flyingmoose 0]

What was the prize distrobution? If it was 40/60 or 30/70, then you probably made the correct decision. If it was 20/80 or 15/85, then you botched the hand something fierce.If you do decide to push, don't just push, call and then push. If you push outright, he'll be getting >2-1 on his call and will be stuck calling. If you wait until the flop to push, he might fold a hand he otherwise would have called with. Unless this is low stakes. If it's low stakes, your opponent may not understand pot odds and might think "he caught me stealing" and muck his J10 or whatever.As far as overplaying AK too much? Yes, AK is only a 60% favorite against a random hand, but so many people overplay AJ and AQ at low stakes that AK ends up crushing your opponents a decent amount of the time.One more thing... you said your fold caused some ruckus at the table? Why in god's name did you show this??? "Hey guys, I'll fold AK and anything worse than it in the big blind. Enjoy the buffet!!"

[strategy 4]

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