Live 20/40 Hand 1

[navybuttons 15]

no super reads. UTG seems kind of solid, kind of weird. MP1 seems like the live one at the table, i've seen people make really thin value bets into him and they were correct, but not SUPER donkish.hero in SB w/ K J :diamond:UTG limps, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 3 folds, button calls, hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.flop: 6 5 2 :diamond:hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, button folds, hero calls, UTG calls. everyone okay so far? turn: Q hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets. hero?

[SCS 0]

I fold here.If you are going to play the hand I think you should raise to get it heads up with MP. Then bet out on the river. Is villain folding river in this situation? If not I'd just fold.

[simo_8ball 0]

I probably call here, and b/f a diamond or K river.

[Zach6668 513]

I fold here.If you are going to play the hand I think you should raise to get it heads up with MP. Then bet out on the river. Is villain folding river in this situation? If not I'd just fold.

You want to raise the turn?That's spewrific.

[Frez 0]

Why even call the flop on that board?

[Zach6668 513]

Anyone else fold preflop?

[SCS 0]

You want to raise the turn?That's spewrific.

Which is why I fold.I'm just saying, if I was going to play the hand I'd probably raise here.

[bassplayer45459 0]

I think this can be folded pre-flop. If not, i am def. ditching this on the flop

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Anyone else fold preflop?

I like folding preflop too. Playing KJo against a raise... and in the blinds so out of position... in a non-steal situation, you're asking for kicker problems.I'm not terribly keen about peeling a card off on the flop either. We've got overcards, so that's 6 one-pair outs and we might be dominated and make a second place hand... which is why I liked folding in the first place.

[simo_8ball 0]

Preflop is a close decision. At a tough table it's an easy fold, at an easy table it's an easy call.I think the same aplies to the flop as well, really. Sometimes you are going to make a second best hand, but sometimes you are going to get a free river. At a loose passive table I don't mind the call at all. At an aggressive table it seems to be a fairly clear fold.

[CoranMoran 0]

I fold preflop.I fold flop.--CM

[Zach6668 513]

I basically echo TJ on why I'd fold pf.

[fleung22 1]

Anyone else fold preflop?

Absolutely. Unless I've got a super read or been running sickly good I fold there everytime.Option 2 is 3-betting. Cold call is by far the worst decision IMO.

[Zach6668 513]

Absolutely. Unless I've got a super read or been running sickly good I fold there everytime.Option 2 is 3-betting. Cold call is by far the worst decision IMO.

3-betting is significantly worse than coldcalling.MP1 raises, Button already cold called, 3-betting has no purpose other than to spew bets and get us deeper into trouble.

[fleung22 1]

3-betting is significantly worse than coldcalling.MP1 raises, Button already cold called, 3-betting has no purpose other than to spew bets and get us deeper into trouble.

If there's one thing I've learned in LHE it's that raising is rarely a worst option than calling. I'm getting rid of BB and possibly UTG...I represent a much stronger hand and if I make a straight it's better hidden. How many idiots 3-bet KJo from the SB? Not many (I know, I just called myself an idiot).But that's the whole point of why folding is a MUCH better option here. I just hate hate hate the cold call. If I'm in I'm going to try to take the lead and hopefully get a read on the strength of the remaining players.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think there's anyone saying that a fold is not the best option, but 3-betting is in no way better than calling. It's barely even a cold call, it's a 1.5 SB, since we paid the small blind.3-betting accomplishes nothing, all it does is make the pot bigger and encourages villains to stick around longer postflop with hands that have us crushed. Representing a stronger hand isn't going to have much effect in a game like this.

[RISEorFall 0]

If there's one thing I've learned in LHE it's that raising is rarely a worst option than calling.

ummmm......no

[fleung22 1]

I don't think there's anyone saying that a fold is not the best option, but 3-betting is in no way better than calling. It's barely even a cold call, it's a 1.5 SB, since we paid the small blind.3-betting accomplishes nothing, all it does is make the pot bigger and encourages villains to stick around longer postflop with hands that have us crushed. Representing a stronger hand isn't going to have much effect in a game like this.

I'm just starting to go through navy's hands no. 1-3 in order. Perhaps ur jaded by the knowledge of the players by the end of all the hands. At this point of the game he doesn't have a read on the players as stated by OP. K, preflop is optimal so let's just pretend we're not doing that for arguments sake.If you call you're begging the BB to call (even tho he folded here) and it's an easy call for UTG. But if you 3-bet, BB now needs a much better hand to call and it's not automatic for UTG call. How could thinning of the field from 4 to 2 be bad? At the very least if there's a showdown (which will likely happen) you'll get a better sense of the table's play earlier in the game. You may advertise yourself as a live one if you make it to the river and expose your cards.I'm just a little surprised at the "accomplishes nothing" comment. There's always something...and unless you're playing this one hand and then getting up there's the metagame.

[fleung22 1]

ummmm......no

You seem to have an idea of the game. Assuming you're not just trying to be a dick then what are you saying exactly? That it's better to call more often than raise??If you are...then well played. I'll just ignore you vs. starting a battle in the most civil part of the forum.

[Zach6668 513]

Metagame = overrated at full ring, live LHE. What are you sitting with these guys for like 100 hands, tops, and most of them are not going to even notice anything...Perhaps me saying "in a game like this" was incorrect wording, but I will guarantee you that representing a better hand is not worth the extra SB (AT LEAST) preflop, as well as the flop bet, and the turn bet we'll need to invest to follow through on the hand we're representing.There are reasons to 3-bet preflop. Isolation and value are the predominent ones. This is for neither. We aren't going to isolate when there's already been a coldcall, and our hand plays no better 3 ways than it does 5 handed. And 3-betting KJo here is definitely not for value. Furthermore, we're going to be out of position for the entire hand making it difficult to play our hand, and extract value if we do hit it, and we'll be putting in lots of money if we make a second best hand.Frankly, there's no benefit to 3-betting preflop, and numerous negatives.Let's just fold, lol.

[fleung22 1]

Metagame = overrated at full ring, live LHE. What are you sitting with these guys for like 100 hands, tops, and most of them are not going to even notice anything...Perhaps me saying "in a game like this" was incorrect wording, but I will guarantee you that representing a better hand is not worth the extra SB (AT LEAST) preflop, as well as the flop bet, and the turn bet we'll need to invest to follow through on the hand we're representing.There are reasons to 3-bet preflop. Isolation and value are the predominent ones. This is for neither. We aren't going to isolate when there's already been a coldcall, and our hand plays no better 3 ways than it does 5 handed. And 3-betting KJo here is definitely not for value. Furthermore, we're going to be out of position for the entire hand making it difficult to play our hand, and extract value if we do hit it, and we'll be putting in lots of money if we make a second best hand.Frankly, there's no benefit to 3-betting preflop, and numerous negatives.Let's just fold, lol.

Actually, I realized I read the OP wrong. I didn't even see the button call. It does make a better argument for your bad play vs. my bad play. Evens out more.I don't know how much live you've played but I've seen 20/40 live games that play like 1/2 online (e.g. WSOP time in Vegas) but then I've also played 8/16 live games loaded with sharks. Advertising a little doesn't hurt especially if we both agree we're folding most of the time. I do think 3-handed is a lot better than 5 but fukk it...let's not argue about the best play that we're not going to be in. Maybe a preference more than anything. I hate KJo with a passion.

[Zach6668 513]

I also hate KJo.3 way is better than 5 way action (get your minds out of the gutter), except we have no guarantee that UTG is folding, and no guarantee that BB is folding, and we also have no guarantee that MP1 isn't capping.I seriously can't think of any reason to put in more money than we'd absolutely have to, to see a flop with KJo from the SB.I don't agree that advertising gains us any advantage here. We shouldn't take a decidedly -EV play to advertise. We should be able to get some advertising in on an =EV or a +EV situation where we're just playing good aggressive poker, but the average live player interprets it as semi-maniacal, like say 3-betting 88 in position, or capping the flop with a flush draw, or two overs and a gutshot, etc. I don't necessarily think metagame is meaningless in any game, but I think it's a tad overrated for most situations at the limits most of us play. It'd be a lot different if we were playing the same 6 guys every single session of our life like they do in the big game, etc.Nonetheless, fold preflop most of the time. If the game is right, see a flop.

[navybuttons 15]

assuming calling pf and flop were the correct play are we calling this turn?

[CobaltBlue 662]

assuming calling pf and flop were the correct play are we calling this turn?

Getting 6-1 on our money with the second nut flush draw and an over, I gotta say that if we've spewed to this point, we need to go a little further. The fact that we're not closing the action and that we may be drawing dead does discount us a little bit.

[Actuary 3]

w/o reading any replies...I fold preflop all dayI don't like KJ off multi way OOP vs a raise after a limper, especiallyI also fold the flop; but it's closer.I give essentially no outs for bdfd hereWith possible re-draws, and still behind when we hit, I wouldn't be comfortable assuming ~4 outsTurn,with your reads, I don't raise here, just to cover that.We are too often geting called, and have no sd valueCall?taking a straight forward approach, we are getting 10:2 to call down, assuming we c/c and UTG calls down, too.Given we are not closing the action...I fold again - I thinkI fold 3 times here, Navy **********the turn is intersting and math intense, I'll now read the other posters, who may play more live and more mid/high stakes....*********