Matusow Vs Lazar

[Roberts2003 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjM_JqBxTlsalright the background knowledge is that Matusow is 2nd in chips at the 2005 Final Table of the WSOP. He is clearly the best player at the table. That being said, Dannaman comes in Under the Gun at a 10 handed table with two jackbs, a solid hand. Lazar who is UTG+1, reraises with AA. Action folds around to Matusow on the button with KK who goes all in. Obviously Lazar calls, and the board comes xxKxx, with 4 hearts and Lazar ends up winning hand.Now, on first glance, its so so so easy to say, you should never fold KK preflop. and i believe that is true in cash games. however, in this tournament, there are so many factors i feel that point to Matusow folding here. From what TV broadcasted, Lazar seems to be a pretty tight, solidplayer. For him to RERAISE the under the gun player when he is next to act, with 8 people behind him, what really is his hand range here?? AA, KK, QQ, AK pretty much. And if you looked at Lazar, his physical tells are pretty obvious in this spot, it is pretty clear that he has a huge hand. Now if you are Matusow here, you tie one hand, and then a 20 80 dog to AA and a 80 20 favorite to QQ, and then a 65 35 favorite to JJ. Now in a cash game, when you can rebuy, you clearly do not fold KK here, but in a tournament when you cant rebuy, is a push really a good idea here?? Matusow can easily fold here, remain in 2nd chip position, and continously win small pots and avoid iffy spots. I have thought a long time about this hand, and I truly feel that if this was me, I would have folded based on all the circumstances.And anyone who says this is results oriented based thinking and narrow minded is in truth, the person who is being narrow minded here. Watch the hand, and think about what I said.

[StillRunningBad7 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjM_JqBxTlsalright the background knowledge is that Matusow is 2nd in chips at the 2005 Final Table of the WSOP. He is clearly the best player at the table. That being said, Dannaman comes in Under the Gun at a 10 handed table with two jackbs, a solid hand. Lazar who is UTG+1, reraises with AA. Action folds around to Matusow on the button with KK who goes all in. Obviously Lazar calls, and the board comes xxKxx, with 4 hearts and Lazar ends up winning hand.Now, on first glance, its so so so easy to say, you should never fold KK preflop. and i believe that is true in cash games. however, in this tournament, there are so many factors i feel that point to Matusow folding here. From what TV broadcasted, Lazar seems to be a pretty tight, solidplayer. For him to RERAISE the under the gun player when he is next to act, with 8 people behind him, what really is his hand range here?? AA, KK, QQ, AK pretty much. And if you looked at Lazar, his physical tells are pretty obvious in this spot, it is pretty clear that he has a huge hand. Now if you are Matusow here, you tie one hand, and then a 20 80 dog to AA and a 80 20 favorite to QQ, and then a 65 35 favorite to JJ. Now in a cash game, when you can rebuy, you clearly do not fold KK here, but in a tournament when you cant rebuy, is a push really a good idea here?? Matusow can easily fold here, remain in 2nd chip position, and continously win small pots and avoid iffy spots. I have thought a long time about this hand, and I truly feel that if this was me, I would have folded based on all the circumstances.And anyone who says this is results oriented based thinking and narrow minded is in truth, the person who is being narrow minded here. Watch the hand, and think about what I said.

Roberts, you are indeed the TRUE Corndog of Beverages.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Dude you're like the weirdest person on this forum.

[StillRunningBad7 0]

Albert Einstein was often called weird for his "crazy" ideas on relativity. Madisons Federalist Theories were once scoffed at as "weird" by his peers. MLK was flat out "weird" for fighting so hard for an equality that "didnt exist."Ghandi's peaceful resistance was thought "weird". SO if StillRunningBad7 can join such illustrious then WE, THE GREAT HEROES OF THE UNIVERSE, WILL UNITE AGAINST THE IGNORANT NAYSAYERS AND SHOW THEM THAT WEIRD IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR GENIUS-- UNIQUE GENIUS. STILLRUNNINGBAD OUT.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

I didn't mean you, you're a newbie, I wouldn't even know you.I was referring to the OP.

[ramenandeggs 0]

Matusow wasn't 2nd in chips and he certainly wasn't the best at this FT. Tex Barch was 2nd in chips and obv. Joe Hachem is the best, and it's a 9 handed FT. I don't see how you get KK vs JJ 65 35 if KK vs QQ is 80 20. any overpair is 80 to 20. He's also 70 to 30 vs AK. TV broadcast isn't enough to get a read on anyone. Matusow is only risking half his stack on the 2nd best hand to move up to the chip leaders.

[Roberts2003 0]

Matusow wasn't 2nd in chips and he certainly wasn't the best at this FT. Tex Barch was 2nd in chips and obv. Joe Hachem is the best, and it's a 9 handed FT. I don't see how you get KK vs JJ 65 35 if KK vs QQ is 80 20. any overpair is 80 to 20. He's also 70 to 30 vs AK. TV broadcast isn't enough to get a read on anyone. Matusow is only risking half his stack on the 2nd best hand to move up to the chip leaders.

No, i said, KK vs AK is 65 35. KK to JJ is 80 20. And Matusow risked more then half his stack on that hand, and had a ton of chips compared to the blinds. You say he wasnt the best at this FT. then who is??

[ramenandeggs 0]

read my post again, I stated who was the best player on this FT. The eventual winner Joe Hachem. And he definitely proved it in his later accomplishments during the WPT events.and then read your post again, "and then a 65 35 favorite to JJ." If you meant to say AK then I take that comment back.define "tons". I doubt that anyone that's not among the chip leaders at the FT of a WSOP ME is safe from the blinds.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Matusow has won 2 more bracelets than Roberts, and has 2 more ME final tables.Thus Roberts cannot criticize Matusow for trying to put himself in position to win the ME with KK.

[Roberts2003 0]

yeah i meant KK to AK is 65 35 my mistake. And the point of this thread is not to criticize Mike Matusow and say that I am better then him. That is the biggest cop out of a post ever to say, "Matusow has more bracelets then you, shut up dont talk". I listened all my reasons why he should have folded, and i stand by them.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Folding KK preflop is -EV.And it's pretty easy to read people's hands when you can see their hole cards, though I'm sure you can "see through people's souls"

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Like I don't see why you would come on here and be like, oh, it was pretty obvious to me that Lazar had aces, I think Mike should have folded. You weren't there, don't waste my time with this crap.

[Roberts2003 0]

Like I don't see why you would come on here and be like, oh, it was pretty obvious to me that Lazar had aces, I think Mike should have folded. You weren't there, don't waste my time with this crap.

Alright, sorry for posting. And especialy, sorry for wasting your time. Because your time is valuable. I will remain forever inside the box.

[simo_8ball 0]

Honestly, if it was AK instead of AA, you would never have posted it.

[XXEddie 0]

Honestly, if it was AK instead of AA, you would never have posted it.

QFTnot only that if Lazar had AK/QQ or JJ, and Matusow did fold, i bet you would have made the same thread about what a dumb fold it is

[Acid_Knight 2]

Yes Matusow knew Lazar (and Danneman for that matter) had real hands here. The truth of the matter is that it is late in the tournament where the stacks are not incredibly deep. Mike has the 2nd nuts. If Lazar makes the raise with ONLY the 4 hands that you stated, Matusow still needs to push. Even if Lazar only makes the raise with AA, KK and QQ, then Matusow still needs to raise becuase he's exactly even money against that range of 3 hands and there's enough dead money in the pot from Dannenman and the blinds to make this profitable. Also, Matusow could not go broke here, but if he won then he'd have a nice chip advantage to allow him to float around a little more.I understand your post here but the other posters are correct that you are results oriented here. Lazar needs to have specifically AA to be ahead of Matusow. Any other hand and Matusow makes a huge error in folding and then the posts would be about what a weak-tight laydown he made with KK preflop.

[throwemaway 0]

Yes Matusow knew Lazar (and Danneman for that matter) had real hands here. The truth of the matter is that it is late in the tournament where the stacks are not incredibly deep. Mike has the 2nd nuts. If Lazar makes the raise with ONLY the 4 hands that you stated, Matusow still needs to push. Even if Lazar only makes the raise with AA, KK and QQ, then Matusow still needs to raise becuase he's exactly even money against that range of 3 hands and there's enough dead money in the pot from Dannenman and the blinds to make this profitable. Also, Matusow could not go broke here, but if he won then he'd have a nice chip advantage to allow him to float around a little more.I understand your post here but the other posters are correct that you are results oriented here. Lazar needs to have specifically AA to be ahead of Matusow. Any other hand and Matusow makes a huge error in folding and then the posts would be about what a weak-tight laydown he made with KK preflop.

QFTThere are so many other variables that are present at the table that you can't see or pick up on while watching TV as well..Saying Matuosow should fold KK here is asinine..Also, see if you can find the stack sizes for this hand..I'd be curious to see them

[Jam-Fly 8]

Look, you got KK, its the final table (so the whole, "you can't win the tournament in the first level but you can lose it" does not apply here. If Matusow wins this hand it will drastically affects his chances of WINNING the tournament). Most importantly imo, is that it is not Matusows tournament life he is putting on the line. And tbh, I go all in with KK every single time if I'm commiting less than 80% of my stack, every single time.I can see where your coming from, like, I wouldn't be surprised if Lazar showed aces, but I would be that surprised if he showed me jacks either.I move all in here with KK every time

[Jam-Fly 8]

Yes Matusow knew Lazar (and Danneman for that matter) had real hands here. The truth of the matter is that it is late in the tournament where the stacks are not incredibly deep. Mike has the 2nd nuts. If Lazar makes the raise with ONLY the 4 hands that you stated, Matusow still needs to push. Even if Lazar only makes the raise with AA, KK and QQ, then Matusow still needs to raise becuase he's exactly even money against that range of 3 hands and there's enough dead money in the pot from Dannenman and the blinds to make this profitable. Also, Matusow could not go broke here, but if he won then he'd have a nice chip advantage to allow him to float around a little more.I understand your post here but the other posters are correct that you are results oriented here. Lazar needs to have specifically AA to be ahead of Matusow. Any other hand and Matusow makes a huge error in folding and then the posts would be about what a weak-tight laydown he made with KK preflop.

QFT, and well explained

[iowahawk09 0]

I dont care what you say Roberts, there is no way you would fold KK in that spot at the final table of the ME with that much money on the line. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you would insta shove your chips in the pot so fast with anything above JJ.You clearly do not understand that Matusow was trying to build his stack to win the ME. He didn't wanna coast to second or third place by making KK laydowns. He wanted to accumulate chips and like stated previously, he is even with the range of hands Lazar could be holding and he has to make this play with KK.He was aware that both players would have fairly big holdings, but they could have made this play with 1010-KK, AK or even AQFor Matusow to fold when holding the second nuts would just be ridiculous. Every single poker player that knows what they are doing, would make the same play and if you say otherwise, your an idiot considering the situation.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I dont care what you say Roberts, there is no way you would fold KK in that spot at the final table of the ME with that much money on the line. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you would insta shove your chips in the pot so fast with anything above JJ.You clearly do not understand that Matusow was trying to build his stack to win the ME. He didn't wanna coast to second or third place by making KK laydowns. He wanted to accumulate chips and like stated previously, he is even with the range of hands Lazar could be holding and he has to make this play with KK.He was aware that both players would have fairly big holdings, but they could have made this play with 1010-KK, AK or even AQFor Matusow to fold when holding the second nuts would just be ridiculous. Every single poker player that knows what they are doing, would make the same play and if you say otherwise, your an idiot considering the situation.

Just for reference:This was actually the 2nd hand of the final table. Dannenman had been playing fairly snug, as had Lazar. Dannenman's range probably included pairs 99+ and AQ+ as far as Matusow saw it, so Lazar's range had to be AK, QQ+ since he probably wouldn't reraise a solid player if he had JJ who opened the pot from first position on the 2nd hand of the ME.Matusow was not going to go nuts here with AK, QQ or anything worse. Mike started the hand with 7.4 million, Steve had 5.4 million and Lazar had 3.3 million chips when the hand went down. Dannenman opened for 250K, Lazar made it 1.25 million and Matusow moved all in. He surely expected a call from Lazar, but he knew that Danneman wouldn't call without AA in this spot.The hand is fairly standard and it plays itself. If Matusow's hand was worse, he would not have pushed.

[donk4life 34]

Lol it's easy enough for you to make these statements when all you do is watch it on TV. I've never been on that big a stage, so I wouldn't know what it feels like, but they probably have every emotion you can think of running through their body. You pick up pocket kings, you make that move every day and twice on Sundays. You can say what you want about tells and how solid of a player Lazar is, but Matusow was only dominated by 1 hand... 1 hand! And they are playing for millions of dollars! If there was one more player who was in the hand and Lazar reraised them, sure you can think about dumping it, but not when he's only be reraised twice.Be in a moment like that, and fold pocket kings, then come back and criticize Matusow's play..

[BeaverStyle 1]

lol, If lazar hadn't runner runnered... matusow's blow up probably would have just been later in the tourney..But seriously, you outflop AA w/ KK, and AA goes runner runner... I know it doesn't matter cuz all the money went in preflop, but what a killer outdraw by lazar (even after matusows... i know)I fold KK there like 0.0000001% of the time.

[Roberts2003 0]

Just for reference:This was actually the 2nd hand of the final table. Dannenman had been playing fairly snug, as had Lazar. Dannenman's range probably included pairs 99+ and AQ+ as far as Matusow saw it, so Lazar's range had to be AK, QQ+ since he probably wouldn't reraise a solid player if he had JJ who opened the pot from first position on the 2nd hand of the ME.Matusow was not going to go nuts here with AK, QQ or anything worse. Mike started the hand with 7.4 million, Steve had 5.4 million and Lazar had 3.3 million chips when the hand went down. Dannenman opened for 250K, Lazar made it 1.25 million and Matusow moved all in. He surely expected a call from Lazar, but he knew that Danneman wouldn't call without AA in this spot.The hand is fairly standard and it plays itself. If Matusow's hand was worse, he would not have pushed.

I agree with this, I thought that Lazar had more chips then he did. But regardless, despite what a "cooler" this is, it is possible to make great laydowns. That is what makes a great player, when he has ability to avoid a cooler and make a big lay down. Even though I am a big fan of the guy, that is why I don't think Negreanu is as amazing as everyone says he is, he cant get away when hes beat often. And again, the point of a poker forum is not to blindly criticize the guy who makes a Topic like this by saying, "Oh I would like to see you in this spot moron". I obviously have not been in that spot.

[trystero 0]

I agree with this, I thought that Lazar had more chips then he did. But regardless, despite what a "cooler" this is, it is possible to make great laydowns. That is what makes a great player, when he has ability to avoid a cooler and make a big lay down. Even though I am a big fan of the guy, that is why I don't think Negreanu is as amazing as everyone says he is, he cant get away when hes beat often. And again, the point of a poker forum is not to blindly criticize the guy who makes a Topic like this by saying, "Oh I would like to see you in this spot moron". I obviously have not been in that spot.

This is not a "cooler" - it's a cooler period. If you don't go broke to some coolers then you are playing weak, bad poker. This is one of those spots.