Let's Talk About Fighting.

[FOOSE1 0]

There have been no new topics in a while so I figured I would create one .So here is what I want us to discuss/debate. Along with poker, MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) has grown in popularity. The UFC, Pride, etc. has brought a lot of attention to the sport of MMA or NHB fighting. My question is this . . . Do you think that this type of "sport" is UnGodly or morally wrong? For us Christians, the bible teaches to turn the other cheek and to not harm another person. The answer will probably be easy for you atheists/agnostics . . . there is no God so it is not UnGodly . But seriously . . . aside from that do you believe it is morally wrong to fight with the intention of hurting someone else?Now before you guys get your panties in a wad I need to explain my stance first . . . because it's not what you think.It shocks some people to hear that I am a poker player and I am also a Christian. It also shocks a lot of people to know that I train in MMA as well. I have been training for almost 2 years now and I love it. My wife and oldest son are black belts and my youngest son is well on his way . . . so I have been around the martial arts studio for the last 10 years between my wife and my boys. A couple of the black belts in the studio where they train started doing MMA a couple years ago and convinced me to give it a shot. Needless to say . . . I was hooked. We train 3-4 days per week concentrating on stand-up and takedowns, intense burst cardio and grappling/jiu jitsu/submissions. I love the thrill of pulling off submissions and outwitting my opponents in the ring.In my mind, MMA is a sport. Just as in any other sport, the goal is to win given the tools/training you have at hand. But here is where the question above comes in. I have had debates with friends about the physical aspect of the "sport". They ask me how it is Godly to want to "punch and kick somebody". I tell them that it is just part of the "sport" and that there is no ill-will there. I do not have hatred for my opponents but rather a desire to win the contest. At the end of the match we shake hands and wish each other well.So . . . long story short . . . is MMA UnGodly or morally wrong?

[Sluggo 0]

I don't believe in God, but I still think it's stupid.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Note to self: be very respectful of Foose in the near future.As to your question, I see nothing wrong with it in terms of god (though I don't believe in god so my position is a bit meaningless).Hope that helps. Good luck, you religious ninja, you.

[gobears 0]

That's a tough one - some folks have a bad impression of UFC or fight clubs.However, boxing is also violent..and football players inflict pain on the other team although it is a byproduct of the main goal. And how can we forget soccer; some of the players go down like they have been shot when they are tackled by another player..obviously very violent! Rugby too.Myself, I don't have anything against it..you every break any bones or anything in your fights?

[the shank 0]

simple way to find out...ask yourself if jesus would do itwould jesus become a mma fighter and beat people senseless in the ring on ppv?would jesus become a pro poker player and sit at a table and try to take 100k off a degenerate who should be at a GA meeting?the answers are no and they will always be no to anything you want to dowould jesus play a violent video game or watch a violent movie for entertainment?would jesus be a insurance salesman? a politician? a retail clerk? a businessman?F#@K no

[jesus_ 0]

would jesus be a insurance salesman? a politician? a retail clerk? a businessman?

My son, there are many people in this world who have these jobs and are honest, hard working children of God.If you would really like to know what I would not be...the answer is that I would not be prejudiced against entire professions based on what I see in movies and on television. Open your mind, my child. Until then do not speak on my behalf.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

My son, there are many people in this world who have these jobs and are honest, hard working children of God.If you would really like to know what I would not be...the answer is that I would not be prejudiced against entire professions based on what I see in movies and on television. Open your mind, my child. Until then do not speak on my behalf.

Are you the same person who does L. Ron Hubbard? I miss that joke account.

[Loismustdie 0]

simple way to find out...ask yourself if jesus would do itwould jesus become a mma fighter and beat people senseless in the ring on ppv?would jesus become a pro poker player and sit at a table and try to take 100k off a degenerate who should be at a GA meeting?the answers are no and they will always be no to anything you want to dowould jesus play a violent video game or watch a violent movie for entertainment?would jesus be a insurance salesman? a politician? a retail clerk? a businessman?F#@K no

Some of this is actually correct for a change. No, Jesus would not beat people senseless in a ring- I don't really like the whole WWJD movement but it applies here.

[FOOSE1 0]

That's a tough one - some folks have a bad impression of UFC or fight clubs.However, boxing is also violent..and football players inflict pain on the other team although it is a byproduct of the main goal. And how can we forget soccer; some of the players go down like they have been shot when they are tackled by another player..obviously very violent! Rugby too.Myself, I don't have anything against it..you every break any bones or anything in your fights?

LOL . . . no . . . most people know to tap when they are in real trouble. Once an armbar is to a certain point there is no getting out of it if done right.

Note to self: be very respectful of Foose in the near future.As to your question, I see nothing wrong with it in terms of god (though I don't believe in god so my position is a bit meaningless).Hope that helps. Good luck, you religious ninja, you.

I should make that my logo and print it on T-shirts . . .

[dapokerbum 0]

I also have some training in Martial Arts and I see no reason it would go make you "ungodly" in any way, shape or form. It can lead down that road as there are some people who really want to hurt someone else. However, This art form was made up and perfected by monks who wanted to live a life of peace but also realized that they needed to be able to protect themselves.

[semaj550 0]

I also have some training in Martial Arts and I see no reason it would go make you "ungodly" in any way, shape or form. It can lead down that road as there are some people who really want to hurt someone else. However, This art form was made up and perfected by monks who wanted to live a life of peace but also realized that they needed to be able to protect themselves.

There are really several different questions at work in this thread though.1) Is MMA morally wrong?2) Is MMA for sport morally wrong?3) Is MMA for money/fame morally wrong?I think, clearly, the answer to 1 is no. Training in any martial art should not be considered morally wrong (excepting certain conditions which probably do not typify martial artists). I think the argument regarding monks falls into this category and they aren't known for making a habit out of fighting each other for sport or money.The other two are really tricky for me though. Is consentual violence for money morally wrong? If so are hockey, football and boxing morally wrong? I don't have any objection at all to hockey or football on any moral grounds so I don't see how I could object to MMA or boxing.This is a really good discussion, I'm looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

[TenaciousMe 0]

There have been no new topics in a while so I figured I would create one .So here is what I want us to discuss/debate. Along with poker, MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) has grown in popularity. The UFC, Pride, etc. has brought a lot of attention to the sport of MMA or NHB fighting. My question is this . . . Do you think that this type of "sport" is UnGodly or morally wrong? For us Christians, the bible teaches to turn the other cheek and to not harm another person. The answer will probably be easy for you atheists/agnostics . . . there is no God so it is not UnGodly . But seriously . . . aside from that do you believe it is morally wrong to fight with the intention of hurting someone else?Now before you guys get your panties in a wad I need to explain my stance first . . . because it's not what you think.It shocks some people to hear that I am a poker player and I am also a Christian. It also shocks a lot of people to know that I train in MMA as well. I have been training for almost 2 years now and I love it. My wife and oldest son are black belts and my youngest son is well on his way . . . so I have been around the martial arts studio for the last 10 years between my wife and my boys. A couple of the black belts in the studio where they train started doing MMA a couple years ago and convinced me to give it a shot. Needless to say . . . I was hooked. We train 3-4 days per week concentrating on stand-up and takedowns, intense burst cardio and grappling/jiu jitsu/submissions. I love the thrill of pulling off submissions and outwitting my opponents in the ring.In my mind, MMA is a sport. Just as in any other sport, the goal is to win given the tools/training you have at hand. But here is where the question above comes in. I have had debates with friends about the physical aspect of the "sport". They ask me how it is Godly to want to "punch and kick somebody". I tell them that it is just part of the "sport" and that there is no ill-will there. I do not have hatred for my opponents but rather a desire to win the contest. At the end of the match we shake hands and wish each other well.So . . . long story short . . . is MMA UnGodly or morally wrong?

Sports are fine.

[zsta2k6 0]

I feel turn the other cheek refers to more than just physical violence, moreso taking on a psychological standpoint meaning something along the lines of dont act out of spite or revenge. MMA is a competition, a sanctioned sport. As long as it stays about the competition, as in all sports, what is wrong with it? However, if it were to turn into something greater than the game itself, for example Bertuzzi's hit or the kicking incident in the cowboys game sunday, that is wrong as it isnt being done by "the competitive spirit", rather it is done out of one's personal motives outside that competition. I hope I made any semblence of a rational thought.

[Loismustdie 0]

The problem is most false religion starts with some dude saying the phrase " I feel..." and then continuing to talk. Clearly Jesus would have never stepped into a UFC ring, whether it's a sport or not. He was not into violence on any level. To say that it's a sport changes nothing. To say that the sport won't change you on some level is a lie. The love of the art, the fight, the feel amnd the rush of the adreneline with a win, are all lusts of the flesh, the pride of life. Which Jesus was against as well. Don't get me wrong, I am into it as well- but it would be foolish to try and make a case that Jesus would be as well.

[zsta2k6 0]

The problem is most false religion starts with some dude saying the phrase " I feel..." and then continuing to talk. Clearly Jesus would have never stepped into a UFC ring, whether it's a sport or not. He was not into violence on any level. To say that it's a sport changes nothing. To say that the sport won't change you on some level is a lie. The love of the art, the fight, the feel amnd the rush of the adreneline with a win, are all lusts of the flesh, the pride of life. Which Jesus was against as well. Don't get me wrong, I am into it as well- but it would be foolish to try and make a case that Jesus would be as well.

religion in and of itself is individual's interpretation of what others believe/say. The bible in it's current form is an interpretation of another's records/stories of earlier times. "I feel" statements are the basis of religion, with more popular statements being taken as fact. One could assume that Jesus would never step into an MMA ring. While that assumption would probably be correct, nobody could be certain. By the same assumption that "Jesus was not into violence on any level", would you condone football, hockey, soccer, basically any physical sport as immoral? If not, where do you draw the line? And since it is you drawing the line, wouldnt that be yet another "I feel" statement?

[Loismustdie 0]

religion in and of itself is individual's interpretation of what others believe/say. The bible in it's current form is an interpretation of another's records/stories of earlier times. "I feel" statements are the basis of religion, with more popular statements being taken as fact. One could assume that Jesus would never step into an MMA ring. While that assumption would probably be correct, nobody could be certain. By the same assumption that "Jesus was not into violence on any level", would you condone football, hockey, soccer, basically any physical sport as immoral? If not, where do you draw the line? And since it is you drawing the line, wouldnt that be yet another "I feel" statement?

Yes, and no. The bible is not open for interpetation because generally it is easy to refute when soembody is taking something out of context, ignoring passages that pertain to a subject, etc. I feel statements are most definitely the basis of all Religion, you are correct about that. The line is this- are you standing opposite someone with one intention- to hurt him or her? Because that is the mindset that it takes to do this stuff right, to win. Hockey, the goal is to get the puck in the net- people do get hurt, and there are positions where that is the only intent. A Christian would not operate with that mindset, or condone that mindset. Football, is very violent, and out of control at times with stringent rules and steps taken to protect ones body, which is the difference. Alot of things have to go wrong to die from a football hit. One well placed blow in a UFC ring, or a boxing ring, at the right moment could kill a man. The question is this- how do you answer to God for these actions? When you are judged, and he says that he doesn't like violence what is your excuse, why do you feel this is O.K., what do you say? I can't think of any good reason I could give him, can you?

[dapokerbum 0]

Hmm how do you answer to god for knocking a guy out? Well clearly I think this is a matter of the heart. If you had a gift that only got better when you pursued your wrestling career and then eventually led you into the MMA ring yet you were still the calm moral person that you have always been then there is nothing to fear.If I ever got to that level of Competition I would be able to shake his hand and say good fight even after I beat him. The thing is this it isn't that we are out there seeking a fight in the street. We would ultimately be entertainers, as that is what people go to these for. One more personal story for ya'll: I was in a smaller tourney for Kenpo and the whole time I was having a great time. I was laughing and joking with the other guys until it came to the last two matches. Then these guys started gettin real serious and I was still happy about being there trying different moves and generally being soft and unagressive while my opponent was going all out. My Sensei was wondering what happened in those matches as I had been doing great up till then. I just told him I didn't want to hurt those guys and would rather give up a point and the trophy than stoop to their agressivness. You see it is all in your mindset. If you can maintain that all the way to the highest level then those guys have nothing to worry about.

[brvheart 1,752]

simple way to find out...ask yourself if jesus would do itwould jesus become a mma fighter and beat people senseless in the ring on ppv?would jesus become a pro poker player and sit at a table and try to take 100k off a degenerate who should be at a GA meeting?the answers are no and they will always be no to anything you want to dowould jesus play a violent video game or watch a violent movie for entertainment?would jesus be a insurance salesman? a politician? a retail clerk? a businessman?F#@K no

Jesus was a business man... right up until age 30.

[Loismustdie 0]

Hmm how do you answer to god for knocking a guy out? Well clearly I think this is a matter of the heart. If you had a gift that only got better when you pursued your wrestling career and then eventually led you into the MMA ring yet you were still the calm moral person that you have always been then there is nothing to fear.If I ever got to that level of Competition I would be able to shake his hand and say good fight even after I beat him. The thing is this it isn't that we are out there seeking a fight in the street. We would ultimately be entertainers, as that is what people go to these for. One more personal story for ya'll: I was in a smaller tourney for Kenpo and the whole time I was having a great time. I was laughing and joking with the other guys until it came to the last two matches. Then these guys started gettin real serious and I was still happy about being there trying different moves and generally being soft and unagressive while my opponent was going all out. My Sensei was wondering what happened in those matches as I had been doing great up till then. I just told him I didn't want to hurt those guys and would rather give up a point and the trophy than stoop to their agressivness. You see it is all in your mindset. If you can maintain that all the way to the highest level then those guys have nothing to worry about.

The question would then be could you actually be a balanced, loving, christlike person and be a proffesional on this field? And the answer is obviously no- the mindset that is needed to be the beast you need to be is in no way godly. Do you see why? You basically had to concede a win becasue you could not justify the level of violence needed. So, what's the point? Why not do something better with your time?

[FOOSE1 0]

Lois . . . you are actually making some very good points. So let me give another christian perspective on the subject.It is very hard to maintain a Christ like attitude doing this. However, I have found it hard to do that in virtually any and every sport. I grew up playing just about everything my parents would let me play. I played organized baseball, basketball, football and even bowling. I am very competetive by nature (which is also why I love poker). But at some point and time I have been angry or frustrated playing all of those sports listed above. Does that mean that I should not play them? I have 3 kids now, should I keep them from playing sports because I know that at some point they may lose their cool or become angry? I think the answer is absolutely not. We can not shelter ourselves from sports or for that matter anything in life that brings us enjoyment just because we may become angry. God wants us to enjoy our short life here on earth. However, it is very, very important how we act and react while we are doing these sports. It is possible to exude a christian attitude even while doing MMA. First and foremost it starts with the motives by which you are doing it. If you go into a match with the idea you want to "hurt" your opponent then you are obviously not acting like a christian. But if you compete for the sport and fun of it (like I do) then you can stay true to your beliefs. Like I said before, I have no ill-will for my opponents. I do not wish to hurt them, rather I am driven to win the match out of my competetive nature. Does that mean that my opponent (or myself) may not still get hurt? No, there is still that chance. BUT, you have to remember that these matches are consensual. Both parties have agreed to it for the sport . . . not for the hurting of each other. The goal is to win. The same holds true for virtually every sport out there. Nobody plays any sport to lose. You play a sport for the fun of it . . . and to win! But, people still get hurt playing sports everyday. That is not the goal of the sport, but it happens. But does that make the sport bad?One thing that I have found as a christian is that God will use you no matter where you are or what you do if you will let him. I play poker. I have met lots of people and talked to a lot of people about God while playing poker. If I gave any of them something to think about as it relates to God, then I would say I have done my "job" as a Christian in spreading the word. The same can be true in MMA. I have traded blows with people and trained with young guys who definately didn't know or care anything about God. Through the respect I earned from them whether winning the match or training with them it has allowed me to start a conversation with them about God. So is this a bad thing? I don't know. But I "feel" like God can still use me . . . even doing MMA.Just a different perspective to think about.

[Loismustdie 0]

Lois . . . you are actually making some very good points. So let me give another christian perspective on the subject.It is very hard to maintain a Christ like attitude doing this. However, I have found it hard to do that in virtually any and every sport. I grew up playing just about everything my parents would let me play. I played organized baseball, basketball, football and even bowling. I am very competetive by nature (which is also why I love poker). But at some point and time I have been angry or frustrated playing all of those sports listed above. Does that mean that I should not play them? I have 3 kids now, should I keep them from playing sports because I know that at some point they may lose their cool or become angry? I think the answer is absolutely not. We can not shelter ourselves from sports or for that matter anything in life that brings us enjoyment just because we may become angry. God wants us to enjoy our short life here on earth. However, it is very, very important how we act and react while we are doing these sports. It is possible to exude a christian attitude even while doing MMA. First and foremost it starts with the motives by which you are doing it. If you go into a match with the idea you want to "hurt" your opponent then you are obviously not acting like a christian. But if you compete for the sport and fun of it (like I do) then you can stay true to your beliefs. Like I said before, I have no ill-will for my opponents. I do not wish to hurt them, rather I am driven to win the match out of my competetive nature. Does that mean that my opponent (or myself) may not still get hurt? No, there is still that chance. BUT, you have to remember that these matches are consensual. Both parties have agreed to it for the sport . . . not for the hurting of each other. The goal is to win. The same holds true for virtually every sport out there. Nobody plays any sport to lose. You play a sport for the fun of it . . . and to win! But, people still get hurt playing sports everyday. That is not the goal of the sport, but it happens. But does that make the sport bad?One thing that I have found as a christian is that God will use you no matter where you are or what you do if you will let him. I play poker. I have met lots of people and talked to a lot of people about God while playing poker. If I gave any of them something to think about as it relates to God, then I would say I have done my "job" as a Christian in spreading the word. The same can be true in MMA. I have traded blows with people and trained with young guys who definately didn't know or care anything about God. Through the respect I earned from them whether winning the match or training with them it has allowed me to start a conversation with them about God. So is this a bad thing? I don't know. But I "feel" like God can still use me . . . even doing MMA.Just a different perspective to think about.

I see where you are coming from- but, the majority of what you said could be summed up with this sentence: " My flesh likes this because.." which is not how Christ went. He was all about denying the lusts of the flesh, the pride of life, which is centerpoint in competition. I love sports, pretty much all of them, but realize that for the most part these are not christlike activities, these are not godly men. To say that it's an avenue to spread the word is nice, but it doesn't justify it, in that there are many more ways to spread God's word.

[dapokerbum 0]

I see where you are coming from- but, the majority of what you said could be summed up with this sentence: " My flesh likes this because.." which is not how Christ went. He was all about denying the lusts of the flesh, the pride of life, which is centerpoint in competition. I love sports, pretty much all of them, but realize that for the most part these are not christlike activities, these are not godly men. To say that it's an avenue to spread the word is nice, but it doesn't justify it, in that there are many more ways to spread God's word.

So just to sum up then -> if you are involved in any type of sport then you are ungodly. I would say no to you on that front. How about the guys that go into MMA get right to the ground have a submission move on them and tap out then hug the guy and shake his hand saying good game. That IS godlike. To be able to accept that someone defeated you and still be able to say good game. This is the same in virtually every sport.I remember playing football in HS and when I layed a guy out (I was a MLB) I would always extend a hand and help them up. There was never any ill will towards them. And i believe that is how most Godly athletes act. They are still at the highest levels of competing but they don't have any ill will towards their opponents. I believe that it is all in the frame of mind.Also what if these guys went a different avenue and became pastors instead of sportsman. And they lead a church and people came to know god because of their actions. That is good right. So then they become famous and they play good and all the players look to them becasue they have their head on straight they always see them being positive on and off the field and they know there is something different and they ask them and they come to know god because of his actions. Is there any difference to god? Both ways they have used their talent and resources to glorify god.

[Loismustdie 0]

So just to sum up then -> if you are involved in any type of sport then you are ungodly. I would say no to you on that front. How about the guys that go into MMA get right to the ground have a submission move on them and tap out then hug the guy and shake his hand saying good game. That IS godlike. To be able to accept that someone defeated you and still be able to say good game. This is the same in virtually every sport.I remember playing football in HS and when I layed a guy out (I was a MLB) I would always extend a hand and help them up. There was never any ill will towards them. And i believe that is how most Godly athletes act. They are still at the highest levels of competing but they don't have any ill will towards their opponents. I believe that it is all in the frame of mind.Also what if these guys went a different avenue and became pastors instead of sportsman. And they lead a church and people came to know god because of their actions. That is good right. So then they become famous and they play good and all the players look to them becasue they have their head on straight they always see them being positive on and off the field and they know there is something different and they ask them and they come to know god because of his actions. Is there any difference to god? Both ways they have used their talent and resources to glorify god.

He tells us to avoid the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life. If you can tell me how indulgeing in these activities manages to do that, I am on your side. The problem also becomes this- we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. So, if you are truly a God fearing christian in a locker room full of heathens, you should be somewhere else. It's a simple as that, what you present is just justification to give in to the flesh, however you want to paint it it's still wrong.

[FOOSE1 0]

He tells us to avoid the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life. If you can tell me how indulgeing in these activities manages to do that, I am on your side. The problem also becomes this- we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. So, if you are truly a God fearing christian in a locker room full of heathens, you should be somewhere else. It's a simple as that, what you present is just justification to give in to the flesh, however you want to paint it it's still wrong.

I could not disagree with this statement more. Jesus Christ surrounded himself with what you call "heathens". His disciples were just ordinary fisherman and even tax collectors which at the time were considered the lowest of the low. He be-friended prostitutes. He was a friend to all that came to him. He was searching for the lost . . . not the ones who already knew him. Surrounding yourself with non-beleivers is what God wants!!! He charges us to reach the lost and to spread the gospel. Nowhere in the bible does it say to only surround yourself with other believers . . . it does tell you to assemble with other believers . . . but it does not say to forsake the non-believers! If you only surround yourself with other "God fearing chrisitans" you are disobeying what God wants you to do . . . period.

[dapokerbum 0]

I could not disagree with this statement more. Jesus Christ surrounded himself with what you call "heathens". His disciples were just ordinary fisherman and even tax collectors which at the time were considered the lowest of the low. He be-friended prostitutes. He was a friend to all that came to him. He was searching for the lost . . . not the ones who already knew him. Surrounding yourself with non-beleivers is what God wants!!! He charges us to reach the lost and to spread the gospel. Nowhere in the bible does it say to only surround yourself with other believers . . . it does tell you to assemble with other believers . . . but it does not say to forsake the non-believers! If you only surround yourself with other "God fearing chrisitans" you are disobeying what God wants you to do . . . period.

Agreed and also i believe that in the context of that passage it was referring to marriage.

He tells us to avoid the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life. If you can tell me how indulgeing in these activities manages to do that, I am on your side.The problem also becomes this- we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. So, if you are truly a God fearing christian in a locker room full of heathens, you should be somewhere else. It's a simple as that, what you present is just justification to give in to the flesh, however you want to paint it it's still wrong.

So then are we to live like monks. What are we to do. Can we own our own business? Or should we just live like the amish in our own community never reaching out to anybody and only praying for each other? The problem is I don't see it as a lust of the flesh to play a sport. I think the lust of the flesh comes when you will do anything to win and that is all that is on your mind. But if you are talented and you can still have that reverence for god then how is that a lust of the flesh. How can you say what is in another mans heart? We are not to Judge! God is the ultimate Judge and he will do that Justly.