Christianity And The Theory Of Evolution By Natural Selection

[Sluggo 0]

Mattnxtc, what is your definition of God?I don't think the quesiton is unreasonable, considering you asked the same thing of LMD. Your definition would help clarify this debate.

[Braveheart91 0]

I think the single most important scripture that one could point to dismiss (all due respect) LMD's conclusions is probably the best known verse of the New Testament (or Brit Chadashot for you Messianics) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." ( And before anyone starts, if you return to the original languages of writing and translation, Greek and Latin, begotten is the most literal English translation.) The emphasis is placed on BEGOTTEN, becasue man only begets a man, a dog only begets a dog, and God only begets God.If Jesus were not God, then much of what makes God so worthy of our worship and adoration, falls apart. That God took on human flesh and paid the penalty for our sins, through his own suffering and death. Now that is worthy of adoration and worship. God (as you attest to)who appointed a whipping boy (innocent third party), not so much.Furthermore, accepting being called God without correcting it would be blasphemous in and of itself therefore would be sin and would not comply with what we "know" of Christ. (I know this is a run-on sentence, thought it flowed better though)Also the passages I referred to do not state nor imply that He would be erroneously called God, In fact they seem to point to the fact that He would be God. And every time the issue was raised and Jesus addressed it, he confirmed (although not as explicitly as say "Yep, I'm Him, The Big Guy Upstairs, Numero Uno!") that he was God. e.g. "8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"Now I understand there are Christian Sects that differ in "theology"Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.But I say this with as much love as I can, they are mistaken. If one were to look to the historical church and the Early Church Fathers' writings (many of which you can find online at www.ccel.org), you would see that the understanding that Jesus was God was universally accepted by the men who learned the Gospel directly from the Apostles and were charged with carrying on its message of salvation.Now, if I have come to accept that there is a God, that He has set out to have a relationship with me, and that is accomplished through Jesus Christ. I would want the information closest to those He taught directly to help me understand fully how to understand Him. That means I look to the Scriptues as God's unfallible Word and then to the writings of the early bishops who shepherded the church through its infancy under persecution, for clarification on parts that seem beyond my grasp.Now that last part could generate a very interesting discussion between, Catholics, Orhtodox(s?), Protestants, and Neithers (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) and that would be fun.

[Sluggo 0]

Mary begat Jesus. Doesn't that make him half and half?

[Loismustdie 0]

Mary begat Jesus. Doesn't that make him half and half?

Yeah, that's a silly argument if I ever saw one. And I know silly arguments. Sigh- when he created man he said" Let's make man in our image. " He was talking to the Holy Spirit and Christ and referred to them as seperate beings. When Christ was baptized- not crucified, I had those accounts mixed up- God looked down from heaven and said " This is my son, in whom I am well pleased. " It would make no sense to do that if Jesus was actually God and therefore no longer in heaven, but on earth. There is also a scripture that says that God has never left his habitation, so it rules out God physically appearing on earth. And, for Matt:Matt.2436] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt, unless Christ is lying then only God knows when Christ will return.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Yeah, that's a silly argument if I ever saw one. And I know silly arguments. Sigh- when he created man he said" Let's make man in our image. " He was talking to the Holy Spirit and Christ and referred to them as seperate beings. When Christ was baptized- not crucified, I had those accounts mixed up- God looked down from heaven and said " This is my son, in whom I am well pleased. " It would make no sense to do that if Jesus was actually God and therefore no longer in heaven, but on earth. There is also a scripture that says that God has never left his habitation, so it rules out God physically appearing on earth. And, for Matt:Matt.2436] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt, unless Christ is lying then only God knows when Christ will return.

But do you not see the problem Lois? All you have done is successfully shown that God the Father and Jesus are seperate...nobody will disagree with you on thatBut what you have not done yet is said what makes "God" God. If God the Father is God and Jesus is not..what seperates them? So far you have defined the role that God the FAther plays in existance...The problem is that You have not shown how Jesus is not God, You have not shown how the Father is doing the role that Jesus or the Holy Spirit does. Do you see? You say Jesus is not God...What makes God?

[Flack_attack 0]

Mary begat Jesus. Doesn't that make him half and half?

Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.

[Loismustdie 0]

But do you not see the problem Lois? All you have done is successfully shown that God the Father and Jesus are seperate...nobody will disagree with you on thatBut what you have not done yet is said what makes "God" God. If God the Father is God and Jesus is not..what seperates them? So far you have defined the role that God the FAther plays in existance...The problem is that You have not shown how Jesus is not God, You have not shown how the Father is doing the role that Jesus or the Holy Spirit does. Do you see? You say Jesus is not God...What makes God?

Actually, you admitting that they are in fact seperate beings is all we need. Since the Bible clearly states that there is only one God, creator of all things, then we know by default Jesus is in fact not so. The question of what God is doesn't even need to be answered at that point, but I will. God is, to put it simply, the beginning. He is what was here before what is here is here, and he will be when it's all gone. If not for God you and I would not exist. There would be no big bang theory to argue, no evolution- nothing. He is the force behind the world as it were, the most powerful entity in existence.

[brvheart 1,752]

Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.

correct.LMD... so your 'church' doesn't believe in the trinity?

[Loismustdie 0]

correct.LMD... so your 'church' doesn't believe in the trinity?

Not biblical, so, no.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Actually, you admitting that they are in fact seperate beings is all we need. Since the Bible clearly states that there is only one God, creator of all things, then we know by default Jesus is in fact not so. The question of what God is doesn't even need to be answered at that point, but I will. God is, to put it simply, the beginning. He is what was here before what is here is here, and he will be when it's all gone. If not for God you and I would not exist. There would be no big bang theory to argue, no evolution- nothing. He is the force behind the world as it were, the most powerful entity in existence.

Actually its not enough. B/c we see that Jesus is said to be the "beginning and end...the alpha and omega..." so what should we infer? Is the bible incorrect in the titles it gives Jesus?

[Loismustdie 0]

Actually its not enough. B/c we see that Jesus is said to be the "beginning and end...the alpha and omega..." so what should we infer? Is the bible incorrect in the titles it gives Jesus?

Jesus was there. It does not make him God. As a matter of fact, God refers to him being there, in that he talks to him and presumably the Holy Spirit. How many times can Jesus refer to God as a higher power before you actually see that? How may time does the bible call him the Son of God? That is the real question. The only way you can get to your conclusion is by making assumptions that are not scriptual.

[Loismustdie 0]

Here is a good on where Christ makes a distiction:John.716] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.[17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[Flack_attack 0]

There is a great deal of Scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ is God. The evidence is comprised not only of specific statements, but also in prophecy fulfillment and his attributes. Let’s first look at some of explicit Scriptural evidence. In this section, we won’t limit ourselves to only giving the text of two verses. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” – John 1:1 “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28 I want to pause just a moment to discuss the verses above. The Greek word for God is theos. In John 1:1, we read that the Word (Jesus) was with theos and was indeed theos. Jesus was (and is) God! This is a very powerful statement! The word theos is used not only in John 1:1, but also in verse 18 and in John 20:28. Theos is used in the New Testament in reference to Jehovah/Yahweh God. Theos is also used in reference to Jesus. We’re beginning to see the plurality found within the one God. "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." – Revelation 4:11 (the words of the 24 elders to Jesus). “…Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28 Once again, in the verses above Jesus is referred to as theos. In Acts 20:28, we know that Jesus shed His blood for the church, and as one person of the triune God, this action is the action of God. Now let’s look at some common compound references to Jesus: “…the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” – Titus 2:13 “…To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” – 2 Peter 1:1 In the passages above, both “God” and “Savior” are used in reference to Jesus Christ. There is no division of the clause. Scholar Robert Reymond writes, “The two nouns [‘God’ and ‘Savior’] both stand under the regimen of the single definitive article preceding ‘God,’ indicating…that they are to be construed corporately, not separately, or that they have a single referent.”[5] In other words, attempts to divide this clause into a reference to God and a separate reference to Jesus as Savior flies against the Greek grammatical construct. These verses provide additional powerful and clear evidence that Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh God. Let’s now turn our attention to more verses that reveal Jesus to be Jehovah/Yahweh.(the above is copied and pasted)

[Mattnxtc 0]

Further to add to the discussionThe Holy Spirit is spoken of as God: Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." so by lying to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God????Along with the fact that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit exhibit all the characteristics of God. So obviously we see that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not human and both exhibit the same characteristics of God. Further the OT even recognizes the Trinity. Genesis 22This entire passage introduces us to the Angel of God who some think may have been Jesus.Notice: Genesis 22:12 He (Angel of God) said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." He is talking possessively about an offering to God...If he is not God then this sentence makes no sense. The rest of the Genesis 22 also shows the Angel of God to be GodIsaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."Thats another pretty clear prophecy of Isaiah. He too uses very clearly the word God when describing the "child" who we know to be Jesus

[brvheart 1,752]

Not biblical, so, no.

I honestly had no idea that the "church of christ" was so messed up. I will be sure to steer very clear in the future... ty.

[Loismustdie 0]

Further to add to the discussionThe Holy Spirit is spoken of as God: Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." so by lying to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God????Along with the fact that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit exhibit all the characteristics of God. So obviously we see that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not human and both exhibit the same characteristics of God. Further the OT even recognizes the Trinity. Genesis 22This entire passage introduces us to the Angel of God who some think may have been Jesus.Notice: Genesis 22:12 He (Angel of God) said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." He is talking possessively about an offering to God...If he is not God then this sentence makes no sense. The rest of the Genesis 22 also shows the Angel of God to be GodIsaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."Thats another pretty clear prophecy of Isaiah. He too uses very clearly the word God when describing the "child" who we know to be Jesus

If I lie to you I lie to God- are you God? The Angel of God was speaking for God, therefore it is conceivable that he wouid use those terms- he is the mouthpiece. They also called Jesus the devil- the scripture didn't mention that. Saying what he may be called is not saying what he IS. There is a difference.

[Mattnxtc 0]

If I lie to you I lie to God- are you God? The Angel of God was speaking for God, therefore it is conceivable that he wouid use those terms- he is the mouthpiece. They also called Jesus the devil- the scripture didn't mention that. Saying what he may be called is not saying what he IS. There is a difference.

I promise you Isaiah was not wrong and nowhere in Isaiah does he say Jesus may be called He specifically says this is what He will be called...Also though u ignore historical factIn Jewish usage, the term "son of ..." did not implay any subordination but equality and identity of nature.That is how any Jew listen to Jesus would have understood it.Plus we know from John 5:18 and John 10:30 that He claimed to be God...heck that was the reason for the blasphemy. "I and the Father are one"...this meant that they were equals...that is how the Jews understood it and he was accused of blasphemy for itMatthew 26:63-65 is another blatant example of Jesus claiming to be God. The evidence is really overwhelming...I didnt realize the CoC didnt agree that Jesus was God but there is more than enough

[brvheart 1,752]

The evidence is really overwhelming...I didnt realize the CoC didnt agree that Jesus was God but there is more than enough

I'm seriously in shock. I can't believe it, honestly. How could Jesus dying forgive sin if he wasn't God? I just don't get it. Satan is very very tricky.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm seriously in shock. I can't believe it, honestly. How could Jesus dying forgive sin if he wasn't God? I just don't get it. Satan is very very tricky.

That's not the question. The question is, why did Jesus die? To shed his blood for the forgiveness of sin, as part of God plan for entrance into heaven. If you look in the garden, he didn't want to. " Not my will, but thine be done. " He DID NOT WANT TO. It was not his will- therefore he must be carrying out someone elses, someone more powerful than he. How is that not logical?

I promise you Isaiah was not wrong and nowhere in Isaiah does he say Jesus may be called He specifically says this is what He will be called...Also though u ignore historical factIn Jewish usage, the term "son of ..." did not implay any subordination but equality and identity of nature.That is how any Jew listen to Jesus would have understood it.Plus we know from John 5:18 and John 10:30 that He claimed to be God...heck that was the reason for the blasphemy. "I and the Father are one"...this meant that they were equals...that is how the Jews understood it and he was accused of blasphemy for itMatthew 26:63-65 is another blatant example of Jesus claiming to be God. The evidence is really overwhelming...I didnt realize the CoC didnt agree that Jesus was God but there is more than enough

No it isn't. He says that he will be sitting on the right hand of power, and say that they have already said waht he is- the son of God. Here it is:63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.[64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. How is that saying he is God?

I promise you Isaiah was not wrong and nowhere in Isaiah does he say Jesus may be called He specifically says this is what He will be called...Also though u ignore historical factIn Jewish usage, the term "son of ..." did not implay any subordination but equality and identity of nature.That is how any Jew listen to Jesus would have understood it.Plus we know from John 5:18 and John 10:30 that He claimed to be God...heck that was the reason for the blasphemy. "I and the Father are one"...this meant that they were equals...that is how the Jews understood it and he was accused of blasphemy for itMatthew 26:63-65 is another blatant example of Jesus claiming to be God. The evidence is really overwhelming...I didnt realize the CoC didnt agree that Jesus was God but there is more than enough

I also like how you ignore the fact that Jesus was also called the devil. Yes, he was called alot of things, and what he was/is the is the son of God.

[Mattnxtc 0]

That's not the question. The question is, why did Jesus die? To shed his blood for the forgiveness of sin, as part of God plan for entrance into heaven. If you look in the garden, he didn't want to. " Not my will, but thine be done. " He DID NOT WANT TO. It was not his will- therefore he must be carrying out someone elses, someone more powerful than he. How is that not logical? No it isn't. He says that he will be sitting on the right hand of power, and say that they have already said waht he is- the son of God. Here it is:63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.[64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. How is that saying he is God? I also like how you ignore the fact that Jesus was also called the devil. Yes, he was called alot of things, and what he was/is the is the son of God.

honestly lois...i love how you attempt to change realityYes the bible does prophecies that he would WRONGLY be called teh devil...Isaiah 9:6 does not have a BUT in it or some disclaimer telling us its wrong... This is Isaiah prophecizing about Jesus!!!! He is describing exactly who Jesus would be. Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. there is nothing telling us that He would wrongly be called mighty God, Prince of Peace and in fact we see the exact opposite. We see that it was Predestined that he woudl be called these things b/c that was exactly what He was coming to do. Lois your argument doesnt hold b/c nowhere in Isaiah do you see a spot where you see Isaiah say well he will be called these things but it wont be Him. You see that Isaiah was prophecising about exactly who Jesus would be. You are worng on this one and your arguments in no way lead us to think that Jesus was to be wrongly called these. Verse 9:7 further clarifies exactly why He would be called those names. As for Matthew 26:63-65You simply ignore the passage dont you. First off Jesus says, "You have said it yourself" this is in direct response to askin if He was the Christ....thats the first yes for youNext He says, "You will see the Son of Man sittin on the right hand of Power" This is a direct reference to the Messianic psalm Psalm 110So again he very simple recalls a psalm know to be about the ChristFinally He also alludes to Danial 7:13 which is also directly talking about GodSo what we have here are 3 admissions of being God 1 direct one and 2 that directly go to passages about the forthcoming Christ. So yes Jesus 3 times admitted it in that passageAs for in the Garden, When did Jesus say He didnt want to? You see Him asking the Father if this was the only way to satisfy the curse on mankind. It was a very rational question and one at which Jesus Himself knew and predicted. So dont act like Jesus didnt want to. He knew exactly what had to take place

[Flack_attack 0]

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God...."This implies that there was nothing before God; he always was. As you stated, Lois, God is simply the beginning.Now, Jesus said "I AM the Alpha and Omega." Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, thus the beginning and the end. It's quite simple really:God= The Beginning (according to Genesis 1:1)Jesus=The Beginning (the Alpha)Ergo, God=Jesus.The Bible does not say Jesus was "there" for the beginning. The Bible says Jesus WAS (IS) the beginning.Or maybe, since you take it so literally, you think Jesus ACTUALLY IS Greek letters.

[brvheart 1,752]

Lois,When Jesus says 'I am' in John 8, why do the Jews pick up stones to kill him? Because he used incorrect grammar?

[Loismustdie 0]

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God...."This implies that there was nothing before God; he always was. As you stated, Lois, God is simply the beginning.Now, Jesus said "I AM the Alpha and Omega." Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, thus the beginning and the end. It's quite simple really:God= The Beginning (according to Genesis 1:1)Jesus=The Beginning (the Alpha)Ergo, God=Jesus.The Bible does not say Jesus was "there" for the beginning. The Bible says Jesus WAS (IS) the beginning.Or maybe, since you take it so literally, you think Jesus ACTUALLY IS Greek letters.

Except God talked to others when he made man. So, others were there- in the beginning. Jesus can most definitely still be the beginning and the end and still not God- because he isn't. It's a very easy concept. Let's say I am Derek Jeter, and I am World Series winner. Let's say you are Mariano Riviera, a World Series winner and MVP. Both could be World Series winners, and could call themelves that, but only on ecould be the MVP. Derek is not an MVP just because he was there. The bible specifically states, left and right, seperate beings and the part they play in salvation and returning to God in heaven, very simply and precisely. Is it any wonder few shall enter?

[Loismustdie 0]

Lois,When Jesus says 'I am' in John 8, why do the Jews pick up stones to kill him? Because he used incorrect grammar?

John 8? Loaded, absolutely loaded with refrences to his father who sent him.All he was saying is that he was around before Abraham, which is true. He was there from the start, but miost definitely not God.As a matter of fact, here is John 8. How in the world can anybody possibly draw from these scriptures that Christ is God? Assuming you can read, how is pssible to blow it that bad? 1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.[2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,[4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.[5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?[6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.[8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.[9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.[13] The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.[14] Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.[15] Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.[16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.[17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.[18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.[19] Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.[20] These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.[21] Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.[22] Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.[25] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.[26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.[27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.[28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.[29] And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.[30] As he spake these words, many believed on him.[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?[34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.[37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.[38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.[39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.[40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.[41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.[42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.[43] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.[46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?[47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?[49] Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.[50] And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.[51] Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[52] Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.[53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?[54] Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:[55] Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[Flack_attack 0]

Where in Bible does God talk to other people during the "creation"?How you can deny Jesus saying "I AM THE beginning."And say God is the beginning, and say Jesus is not God...