Jump to content

Christianity And The Theory Of Evolution By Natural Selection


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 244
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Show me where all 3 were prayed to and we will go from there. Here is an interesting question- it is unforgiveable to curse the holy spirit, but not unforgiveable to curse God or Christ. Why is that?
Prayer to God the Father is obvious We see Stephen prays to Jesus in Acts 7:59-60 when he uses a prayer very similar to the one that Jesus prays on the crossI misspoke on the Holy Spirit. I thought I had examples of prayer to the Holy Spirit but instead they are times where the Holy Spirit gave people the ability to pray better and things of that nature. So while His role is very very important in terms of prayer and in terms of His God function there isnt any direct prayer to Him.You are correct it is interesting to thinka bout why it is unforgiveable to curse the Holy Spirit and to be honest I would need to think more on it as it isnt something I have put much time into.But to get back to the point though, We dont see any times where one of the Trinity is shown to be superior to the other 2 overall. We see three working in harmony making up God.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Prayer to God the Father is obvious We see Stephen prays to Jesus in Acts 7:59-60 when he uses a prayer very similar to the one that Jesus prays on the crossI misspoke on the Holy Spirit. I thought I had examples of prayer to the Holy Spirit but instead they are times where the Holy Spirit gave people the ability to pray better and things of that nature. So while His role is very very important in terms of prayer and in terms of His God function there isnt any direct prayer to Him.You are correct it is interesting to thinka bout why it is unforgiveable to curse the Holy Spirit and to be honest I would need to think more on it as it isnt something I have put much time into.But to get back to the point though, We dont see any times where one of the Trinity is shown to be superior to the other 2 overall. We see three working in harmony making up God.
What we do see is definte seperation of what they do and there role in our lives, all of which aid us in worshiping God. My theory on why it is unforgiveable to curse the Holy Spirirt is that it's the closest to us- as a christian it resides in you, a part of you, and without it you have no hope of heaven. To curse him is to curse the very live link you have to God. Just a theory.(Shrugs.) One more example, or it's more a question. Why would Jesus pray to himself in the Garden of Gesthamane?
Link to post
Share on other sites
One more example, or it's more a question. Why would Jesus pray to himself in the Garden of Gesthamane?
Because he is part human, i suppose. Good question. However Lois, if you look at the Trinity as three truly seperate entities, then you are practicing a de facto polytheistic religion, that is to say, more than one deity or God. Christian doctrine allows for the Trinity as one God, but three parts.
Link to post
Share on other sites
What we do see is definte seperation of what they do and there role in our lives, all of which aid us in worshiping God. My theory on why it is unforgiveable to curse the Holy Spirirt is that it's the closest to us- as a christian it resides in you, a part of you, and without it you have no hope of heaven. To curse him is to curse the very live link you have to God. Just a theory.(Shrugs.) One more example, or it's more a question. Why would Jesus pray to himself in the Garden of Gesthamane?
Ur example is a good question and my simple answer is this. All three play different roles. We dont expect Jesus or the Father to be inhabiting us do we? No we know its the Holy SpiritJust as the Father or Holy Spirit not die for us but Jesus did. I think when you look at the big picture it is much clearer that each Person role in humanity is differentI will say though that Jesus being subordinate to the Father is not indicative of being weaker but of the Son doing the Fathers will
Link to post
Share on other sites
Because he is part human, i suppose. Good question. However Lois, if you look at the Trinity as three truly seperate entities, then you are practicing a de facto polytheistic religion, that is to say, more than one deity or God. Christian doctrine allows for the Trinity as one God, but three parts.
Everybody is clearly missing the point. The scriptures point to seperate entities, and talk of worshipping God, and the scriptures clearly point out what the role of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is in worshipping God and the plan of salvation. There are never scriptures that say worship the Holy Spirit, and in fact Jesus tells you to not worship him but his father who sent him, yet still we have factions that believe in a holy trinity that doesn't exist. The term " trinity " isn't even in the bible. Obviously all three of these things work together, but for what Goal? Worshipping God. Think of it this way- I am not a radio, and neither are batteries, but it takes me to install said batteries and turn the radio on for the radio to become realized for what it is.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Everybody is clearly missing the point. The scriptures point to seperate entities, and talk of worshipping God, and the scriptures clearly point out what the role of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is in worshipping God and the plan of salvation. There are never scriptures that say worship the Holy Spirit, and in fact Jesus tells you to not worship him but his father who sent him, yet still we have factions that believe in a holy trinity that doesn't exist. The term " trinity " isn't even in the bible. Obviously all three of these things work together, but for what Goal? Worshipping God. Think of it this way- I am not a radio, and neither are batteries, but it takes me to install said batteries and turn the radio on for the radio to become realized for what it is.
Correct the term trinity isnt in the bible. but there is plenty in the bible to let us know that all three are most certainly God. Yes all three were distinct Persons, nobody disputes that...but all three were also equals
Link to post
Share on other sites
Where does the bible say they were equals? I'm with LMD on this one. The bible says nothing about trinity.
if u actually read the bible youll notice that nobody is above the other...all are here for distinct purposes and none of them get more say than the other...but u havent actually read the NT so to bad
Link to post
Share on other sites
if u actually read the bible youll notice that nobody is above the other...all are here for distinct purposes and none of them get more say than the other...but u havent actually read the NT so to bad
The 2 clearly refer to God a superior- and, actually, the Holy Spirit isn't even given a voice, just a job. Jesus clearly states that there is only one God, who he worships, states that he is his father and we should do the same. It is so crystal clear it's stunning how Trinity apologist cling to that belief.
The 2 clearly refer to God a superior- and, actually, the Holy Spirit isn't even given a voice, just a job. Jesus clearly states that there is only one God, who he worships, states that he is his father and we should do the same. It is so crystal clear it's stunning how Trinity apologist cling to that belief.
This one statement refutes your position, Matt:Luke.2242] Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done Jesus did not want to go through what he knew was coming- he didn't have a choice, it wasn't his call. A plan was already set in motion by something bigger than him.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel as though I am throwing water on a spent fire, but some basis (biblical and otherwise) for Jesus as God, Holy Spirit as God, and for belief in the Trinity.First:John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 20:24-29 24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger Where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Messianic References from the Tanakh (or Old Testament) Isaiah 6:9 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.This while not as explicit is a further reference: Isaiah 7:14c "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Immanuel means God with us)Within this context other verses can be more reasonably inferred to mean that Jesus is referring to himself as God. "I and the Father are One" John 8:57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 8:58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.The reason many miss this one is that they are not 1st century Jews and lack an understanding of the gravity of what Jesus is saying here. He has just claimed to be God, he uttered the tetragrammon in reference to himself "God's name" which was forbidden for any Jew to do. Hence you see the lynch mob form to stone him to death, it is reasonable to infer that he meant it as history would indicate it to be understood.to be continued-

Link to post
Share on other sites
I feel as though I am throwing water on a spent fire, but some basis (biblical and otherwise) for Jesus as God, Holy Spirit as God, and for belief in the Trinity.First:John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 20:24-29 24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger Where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Messianic References from the Tanakh (or Old Testament) Isaiah 6:9 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.This while not as explicit is a further reference: Isaiah 7:14c "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Immanuel means God with us)Within this context other verses can be more reasonably inferred to mean that Jesus is referring to himself as God. "I and the Father are One" John 8:57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 8:58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.The reason many miss this one is that they are not 1st century Jews and lack an understanding of the gravity of what Jesus is saying here. He has just claimed to be God, he uttered the tetragrammon in reference to himself "God's name" which was forbidden for any Jew to do. Hence you see the lynch mob form to stone him to death, it is reasonable to infer that he meant it as history would indicate it to be understood.to be continued-
None of that refutes the scriptures that I have put forth as proof. Yes, Jesus was erroneously reffered to as God, although he said himself that he was not God. So, you seem to at least have some idea of what the scriptures say. You tell me why God looked down from heaven and said:2Pet.116] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[17] For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. Why would he look down from heaven at himself and then refer to himself as his own son? That doesn't make sense. Why would he at creation say:Gen.1[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. God is talking to some body- who? Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But, he is not talking to himself, he is talking to a group. Then, in the garden before the crucifixion why would Jesus as God to:Luke.22[41] And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,[42] Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done Clearly showing that he was not God, and what was happening wasn't neccesarily something he wanted to do. "Not MY will, but THINE be done." He clearly states that God is something above him. I understand what is misunderstood in the scriptures, it is just easily refuted by common sense, 3rd grade level reading skill. The trinity is not biblical, it must be rationalized with thought process that biblically does not exist and is not biblically backed.
Link to post
Share on other sites
None of that refutes the scriptures that I have put forth as proof. Yes, Jesus was erroneously reffered to as God, although he said himself that he was not God. So, you seem to at least have some idea of what the scriptures say. You tell me why God looked down from heaven and said:2Pet.116] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[17] For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. Why would he look down from heaven at himself and then refer to himself as his own son? That doesn't make sense. Why would he at creation say:Gen.1[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. God is talking to some body- who? Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But, he is not talking to himself, he is talking to a group. Then, in the garden before the crucifixion why would Jesus as God to:Luke.22[41] And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,[42] Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done Clearly showing that he was not God, and what was happening wasn't neccesarily something he wanted to do. "Not MY will, but THINE be done." He clearly states that God is something above him. I understand what is misunderstood in the scriptures, it is just easily refuted by common sense, 3rd grade level reading skill. The trinity is not biblical, it must be rationalized with thought process that biblically does not exist and is not biblically backed.
Few things...first off by saying Jesus was erroroneously referred to as God you are supporting the fact that the Bible in fact is not perfect. 2nd off Jesus never dismisses, as braveheart showed, when somebody calls him God. How were the Jews able to crucify Him? B/c He said He was God. There are point after point that back up the claim that Jesus said He was God. In fact when you look at His actions they are perfectly logical. Instead of walkin up to people and saying He was God, He went out and showed who He was. He caused others to call Him God and He praised them for that. So to say Jesus never said He was God is wrong. Finally Jesus knew exactly how His death would play out. This was predicted in the OT so there wasnt any room for movement. When you see Him in the Garden He is an intense emotional state knowing what is about to happen. Jesus His entire left knew about this moment and as it approaches you see the human side of Him as he knows about the pain that is to come. All He is doing is making sure that this event will be enough to save mankind. That there is nothing else to be done and that nothing else will need to be done. Its like 2 equals discussing a plan to make sure its perfect.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Few things...first off by saying Jesus was erroroneously referred to as God you are supporting the fact that the Bible in fact is not perfect. 2nd off Jesus never dismisses, as braveheart showed, when somebody calls him God. How were the Jews able to crucify Him? B/c He said He was God. There are point after point that back up the claim that Jesus said He was God. In fact when you look at His actions they are perfectly logical. Instead of walkin up to people and saying He was God, He went out and showed who He was. He caused others to call Him God and He praised them for that. So to say Jesus never said He was God is wrong. Finally Jesus knew exactly how His death would play out. This was predicted in the OT so there wasnt any room for movement. When you see Him in the Garden He is an intense emotional state knowing what is about to happen. Jesus His entire left knew about this moment and as it approaches you see the human side of Him as he knows about the pain that is to come. All He is doing is making sure that this event will be enough to save mankind. That there is nothing else to be done and that nothing else will need to be done. Its like 2 equals discussing a plan to make sure its perfect.
No, the bible says he would be called God, it never says that he is, huge, huge difference. They crucified him because he claimed to be the Son of God. As far as Jesus being equal to God- what part of THY WILL BE DONE do you not get? This was not Jesus plan, and no easy task for him to do- but,he had no choice but to obey the father. There are to many instances wheree Jesus refers to God a someone else to buy into the Trinity, the most glaring being that when as ked when he would return he said he did not know- only God knows, or his father in heaven. That tells me very clearly that Jesus is not God, and even to a certain extent not equal to him.
Link to post
Share on other sites
No, the bible says he would be called God, it never says that he is, huge, huge difference. They crucified him because he claimed to be the Son of God. As far as Jesus being equal to God- what part of THY WILL BE DONE do you not get? This was not Jesus plan, and no easy task for him to do- but,he had no choice but to obey the father. There are to many instances wheree Jesus refers to God a someone else to buy into the Trinity, the most glaring being that when as ked when he would return he said he did not know- only God knows, or his father in heaven. That tells me very clearly that Jesus is not God, and even to a certain extent not equal to him.
but yet u still havent offered any proof that Jesus wasnt God Lois. The fact that this was the Fathers plan has nothing to do with Jesus not being God...Jesus and the Holy Spirit still exihibit more than enough examples to be classified as God. If you believe Jesus is not God then what is ur definition of God?
Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattnxc, you're asking LMD to prove a negative. He's already provided evidence for his position.
First off the only "evidence" i have seen what Jesus being submissive to God...i cleared that one up by showing how historically and in the context it was the correct act of Jesus no matter if he was a God or human... But that isnt evidence that Jesus is not GodThat is why i next ask for his defintion of a God
Link to post
Share on other sites
First off the only "evidence" i have seen what Jesus being submissive to God...i cleared that one up by showing how historically and in the context it was the correct act of Jesus no matter if he was a God or human... But that isnt evidence that Jesus is not GodThat is why i next ask for his defintion of a God
When Jesus states he doesn't know, that ONLY God knows when he will come back that seems to me pretty clear evidence that Christ is not God.
Link to post
Share on other sites
When Jesus states he doesn't know, that ONLY God knows when he will come back that seems to me pretty clear evidence that Christ is not God.
He never states the ONLY God so you are wrong...please try again
Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattnxtc, what is your definition of God?
why are you even in this conversation...please quit posting unless you have something to addNow lois...you said that Jesus is not God..therefore you must have a definition of what it means to be God...im interested to hear it
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...